Guys I'm not trying to talk bad about anybody or their kids. A lot of the problems can be attributed to society. Kids in the city that don't participate in after school activities have nothing to occupy their time. Other than managing a small farm for a neighbor or working for my Dad I didn't have an official job till I was 19. My Dad worked long hours at his business and he depended on me to take care of the cattle , hogs , horses , chickens , and the dogs. Every day after school I came straight home to my job. During the summer I had grass to mow and a big garden to care for also. I enjoyed it. I liked working with the animals. It just seemed normal. I believe most kids would benefit from being raised on a farm. There is no shame if your kids didn't turn out the way you wanted. You can only do your best. Sometimes it just don't work out. I know we have enough deadbeats in our family. My Dad has two sisters and a brother. About half of my cousins and their kids are useless. I have one cousin that is 50 that has never had a taxpaying job. Instead he has mooched off his dad his whole life. No guys , it is all around us. I think that for those of us that are over 55 it is the most apparent. And like Stro said , don't ever stop trying to encourage your children. Maybe some day it will "click". Notice I said in my post above basically if you have raised your kids to be productive citizens that you have beat the odds. Its tough now days. Schools don't allow prayer and they burn the flag in campuses across the country. If you don't respect God and Country , what is left. God bless America and say a prayer for our kids.