NFL sucks!

[Blk6bgg6]

Just thinking how the spoiled brat football players sent their no respect to the flag and anthem..Here is your sign ! Boycott and would like to see that league out of business..Unbelievable no meaning or respect to the United States of America and the price paid by many ..Trump should not get involved with these loses but it isn't about him.God Bless America and all that served to protect this country and that flag.. And one more thing what a man on the Steelers team that stood and honored the flag and anthem while his gutless teammates didnt

[willtill]

Oh.. the National Felon League? Ya...

[Hornblower]

I agree completely! Unfortunately, the only weapon we have to fight back with is to boycott. I have been doing that since all this nonsense started with Kapernick. Frankly, I miss watching football but principle MUST trump entertainment. These protesting players are overpaid, spoiled, self-indulgent thugs, no more, no less. By their actions, they are proving a lack of understanding of our great history and a serious lack of patriotism. Do they have a right to do what they're doing? Absolutely! But they will be held responsible for their actions and I, for one, hope a boycott of NFL will become significant enough to hit them where it really hurts, the pocketbook.

[willtill]

It was kind of ate up today when the Ravens took a knee in London for the American anthem, but then stood when the Brits played their national anthem.

The British must've chortled over that one.

Fuctards they are.... the Ravens

[TandemGeek]

Ya know, I look at this the same way I look at children who are misbehaving in public as the parents stand idly by. The players are simply doing what their coaches, team owners and the NFL as a business enterprise will allow... for whatever reason. So, while I'm truly not sure all of the players are on the same page with statement they believe they're making -- there seem to be several different messages -- if the business enterprise they work for has said you're free to exercise your 1st amendment rights then it is what it is. I may not like it, but that's part of what made our nation different from so many others. Now, the recent trend in terms of the double standard for "acceptable" and unacceptable free speech. Uh, you can't have it both ways. That's censorship.

Anyway, the NFL and most of the owners have clearly decided what they think is the least financially risky approach to dealing with this nonsense and the bottom line is the bottom line when you're running a billion dollar entertainment business. I don't buy the stuff that the NFL's advertisers are selling and don't watch TV other than when certain sporting events catch my interest and even then it's mostly background noise.

So, for me it's the owner's and NFL that I'm looking at, not the players. They're just testing the limits of their employers and their collective bargaining agreements

[Walcrow]

I concur. Jerry Jackass Jones did it last night also. Ever since he bought the Cowboys and treated Tom Landry like a homeless peddler, I've gone 180 degrees with the Boys and their slimy owner. My dad, who was awarded the Navy Cross for WWII Pacific action, is spinning in his grave at 5,000 rpm right now..............National FUBAR League.

[BillyDee]

473 homicides in Chicago since January 2017.

261 homicides in Baltimore since January 2017.

Keep on kneeling and joining arms...

[opas ride]

Personally, I have little tolerance for these over-paid, spoiled, arrogant, and useless jerks and their "petty little BS"..If they don't like it here in the USA, get your butt out!!!...I agree we need some changes in this country, but IMHO this so-called sports areana is not the place to express personal gripes.......I agree with Richard Petty's statement that any Nascar Driver who does this crap will be fired!!!

[Walcrow]

How come Barbara Streisand hasn't moved to N. Korea yet? She said she'd move if Trump was elected along with a bunch of other retards who are supposed to be long gone. Get the hell out and watch out for the door hittin' your ass! I'm still waiting :popcorn:

[Elroy]

Agree with everything that's been said here. And I bet if you asked the players why they were doing what they are doing you would get a million different answers, if they even knew at all! And what about "Big Ben" saying he regretted how the Steelers remained in the locker room during the National Anthem and he wished he'd been on the sideline. Spineless.

But can we all agree how awesome it was to see the POTUS saying "Son of a bitch" at a press conference!

Just like during the election when all the career politicians got it wrong, the talking heads on the news networks got it wrong, journalists, celebrities, etc., all got it wrong, so to is the NFL. Trump is saying exactly what most of the country is feeling about these self-entitled, ego-maniac athletes and their "protests".

I bet Roger Goodell is happier than anyone about what Trump has said though. For once the NFLPA, owners, coaches, players, are angry at someone other than him.

[Miks]

Guess this is why I like motorcyclist so much - we GET IT! The American flag, how many YOUNG & BRAVE AMERICANS have fought for this country, so that these players cany can play football and have the huge contracts they have. How many of these people lost their lives, their family who went through the rest of their lives without those who lost their lives WAY too early.

I think the education system needs to be entirely overhauled, INCLUDING the colleges and universities. What do they teach these young'uns today? Well, America is bad...the worst country in the world because these pigs developed industry, technology, and medical advancements. How? Stealing from the rest of the world???? How freaking stupid is that, but that is what they teach. Well, forget the good stuff of developing society and everything else, we are all just pigs that ruined every decent country in the world?

WHACKED out I say :shock:

I think if you hate this country so bad, and think it isn't fair and is full of hard working people who just exploit the weak...please just leave the country and see how great the rest of the world is! Go live there and be an idiot but get out of the way of people who freaking get up and know how to get it done!

[Verismo]

Where was all this patriotic outrage when Trump was questioning John McCain's heroism for surviving a P.O.W. camp?

Jason

[ths61]

Where was all this patriotic outrage when Trump was questioning John McCain's heroism for surviving a P.O.W. camp?

Jason

You mean Songbird's heroism ?

[BIGLRY]

You mean Songbird's heroism ?
You old :stirthepot: you

[Verismo]

You mean Songbird's heroism ?

It takes about as much character to say that over the internet as it does to take 5 deferments and demean an American soldier.

Jason

[ths61]

You old :stirthepot: you

I am in good company.

[Oz-Man]

As a retired 25 year Army Vet, I am torn on this issue. Personally, I find their actions appalling. At the same time, I took an oath to support and defend the Constitution - including their First Amendment right to do this very thing. So....part of me is proud that we live in a country where people have the right to do this, but disappointed they choose to do so.

Their issue probably has merit, but it is getting lost on how they are addressing it. There is no dialogue on why they are protesting, only on how they are protesting. Kind of self-defeating.

Unless you've served (except for patriotic folks like that are here on this board), it is hard to imagine what the flag and the anthem means to a Soldier. We salute it at the start of the day when it is raised, and salute it at the end of the day when it is lowered. That flag has covered the coffins of our brothers in arms. Many say it is just a piece of cloth - but to a veteran it so much more.

I cannot control the actions of others - but I am in complete charge of my own. Therefore, I am choosing to boycott NFL games - there are plenty of collage games to feed my interest. YMMV.

[BIGLRY]

As a retired 25 year Army Vet, I am torn on this issue. Personally, I find their actions appalling. At the same time, I took an oath to support and defend the Constitution - including their First Amendment right to do this very thing. So....part of me is proud that we live in a country where people have the right to do this, but disappointed they choose to do so.

Their issue probably has merit, but it is getting lost on how they are addressing it. There is no dialogue on why they are protesting, only on how they are protesting. Kind of self-defeating.

Unless you've served (except for patriotic folks like that are here on this board), it is hard to imagine what the flag and the anthem means to a Soldier. We salute it at the start of the day when it is raised, and salute it at the end of the day when it is lowered. That flag has covered the coffins of our brothers in arms. Many say it is just a piece of cloth - but to a veteran it so much more.

I cannot control the actions of others - but I am in complete charge of my own. Therefore, I am choosing to boycott NFL games - there are plenty of collage games to feed my interest. YMMV. +1 from a U.S. Army 9th Infantry Division 5th Battalion, 60th Infantry. June. 1968 – Oct. 1970, MOS 11 Bravo.....a surviver!

http://bestanimations.com/Flags/USA/usa-american-flag-gif-3.gif

[ths61]

The issue is pretty cut and dried for me. The overpaid employees are on company time and the taxpayer's and fan's dime. The NFL has a code of conduct specified for the National Anthem that they are violating. They can protest on their own time or the fans can pull their funding and show them how much their tantrums matter at the unemployment lines. The forced taxpayer funding should also be pulled. This is a private industry that should sink or swim on its own merit. The news reported that the average NFL salary was $2.44 MILLION/year. They have absolutely nothing to whine about.

http://www.gunaxin.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/nfl-arrests.jpg

[dadeo]

No fan of overpaid spoiled brats but still I also hate how the NFL has added all the false paid patriotism to the game. Do you know that teams actually charge the services honor guards who appear at games? And the services justify paying for recruiting purposes? It's pathetic.All around corrupt.

[53driver]

No fan of overpaid spoiled brats but still I also hate how the NFL has added all the false paid patriotism to the game. Do you know that teams actually charge the services honor guards who appear at games? And the services justify paying for recruiting purposes? It's pathetic.All around corrupt.

That's a change!
When the Eagles wanted us for the big flag for pre-game, they sent a bus, gave us tickets to the game and of course while in uniform, we couldn't get past ANY tailgater without discussion and beverages.

[53driver]

Spent the last 114 minutes sitting in my gazebo, with scotch & cigar, watching clouds & stars go by.
I'm perfecting my "Nothing Box."

Yes, I've found something much better to do than watch TV.
Cheers,
Steve

[willtill]

Spent the last 114 minutes sitting in my gazebo, with scotch & cigar, watching clouds & stars go by.
I'm perfecting my "Nothing Box."

Yes, I've found something much better to do than watch TV.
Cheers,
Steve

I like sitting in a tree stand... in the woods.

[taxfree4]

1 (800) 342-5283

This is the number to Anheuser-Busch. They want to know how you feel about NFL players kneeling during the anthem and if they should continue supporting the NFL through advertisement dollars with a quick push button survey. Let them know what you think. Call during business hours it's an automated system and asks if are calling about the
NFL. .Press 1 and then leave your message.
Feel free to copy and post.

[ReserveBum]

Guess this is why I like motorcyclist so much - we GET IT! The American flag, how many YOUNG & BRAVE AMERICANS have fought for this country, so that these players cany can play football and have the huge contracts they have. How many of these people lost their lives, their family who went through the rest of their lives without those who lost their lives WAY too early.

I think the education system needs to be entirely overhauled, INCLUDING the colleges and universities. What do they teach these young'uns today? Well, America is bad...the worst country in the world because these pigs developed industry, technology, and medical advancements. How? Stealing from the rest of the world???? How freaking stupid is that, but that is what they teach. Well, forget the good stuff of developing society and everything else, we are all just pigs that ruined every decent country in the world?

WHACKED out I say :shock:

I think if you hate this country so bad, and think it isn't fair and is full of hard working people who just exploit the weak...please just leave the country and see how great the rest of the world is! Go live there and be an idiot but get out of the way of people who freaking get up and know how to get it done!

Bingo....that is right on.

[taxfree4]

Only in America can a person go from so-called poverty, you want to see poor go outside of the US, get free education, free breakfast, free lunch, play ball, get drafted, free college get drafted into the NFL, a not for profit organization believe it or not, make more money than the whole city block they came from would make in a lifetime and would then have the audacity to kneel before a flag and during an anthem. It is the antithesis of what those two things stand for as we unite under the flag and the anthem. If there is one moment where Americans i.e. White and Black, Democrats and Republicans, Conservatives and Liberals, Christian, Muslim and Jew should put aside all differences and unite is before that flag and during that anthem. ANYONE looking to disrupt that by not honoring our synoptic vision on that specific point should be seen as an enemy, period and should be treated as such. Any freedom as in freedom of speech comes with a responsibility and this is the most irresponsible behaviour one can display, spoiled little asswipes.

[BIGLRY]

Only in America can a person go from so-called poverty, you want to see poor go outside of the US, get free education, free breakfast, free lunch, play ball, get drafted, free college get drafted into the NFL, a not for profit organization believe it or not, make more money than the whole city block they came from would make in a lifetime and would then have the audacity to kneel before a flag and during an anthem. It is the antithesis of what those two things stand for as we unite under the flag and the anthem. If there is one moment where Americans i.e. White and Black, Democrats and Republicans, Conservatives and Liberals, Christian, Muslim and Jew should put aside all differences and unite is before that flag and during that anthem. ANYONE looking to disrupt that by not honoring our synoptic vision on that specific point should be seen as an enemy, period and should be treated as such. Any freedom as in freedom of speech comes with a responsibility and this is the most irresponsible behaviour one can display, spoiled little asswipes.
http://origin.webcdn.theblackdesertonline.net/forum/service_live/monthly_12_2015/plus.jpg.c254123afff27912076ea6825373d1f4.jpg
My Sunday, Monday, and any other day the NFL is on is now another good reason to take a ride or a walk on the beach which both lower my BP and let me contemplate how much I love both.

[53driver]

My Sunday, Monday, and any other day the NFL is on is now another good reason to take a ride or a walk on the beach which both lower my BP and let me contemplate how much I love both.


http://origin.webcdn.theblackdesertonline.net/forum/service_live/monthly_12_2015/plus.jpg.c254123afff27912076ea6825373d1f4.jpg

(see what I did there? :icon_cool:)

[53driver]

Dear NFL player,

You graduated high school in 2011. Your teenage years were a struggle. You grew up on the wrong side of the tracks. Your mother was the leader of the family and worked tirelessly to keep a roof over your head and food on your plate. Academics were a struggle for you and your grades were mediocre at best. The only thing that made you stand out is you weighed 225 lbs and could run 40 yards in 4.2 seconds while carrying a football. Your best friend was just like you, except he didn’t play football. Instead of going to football practice after school, he went to work at McDonalds for minimum wage. You were recruited by all the big colleges and spent every weekend of your senior year making visits to universities where coaches and boosters tried to convince you their school was best. They laid out the red carpet for you. Your best friend worked double shifts at Mickey D’s. College was not an option for him. On the day you signed with Big State University, your best friend signed paperwork with his Army recruiter. You went to summer workouts. He went to basic training.

You spent the next four years living in the athletic dorm, eating at the training table. You spent your Saturdays on the football field, cheered on by adoring fans. Tutors attended to your every academic need. You attended class when you felt like it. Sure, you worked hard. You lifted weights, ran sprints, studied plays, and soon became one of the top football players in the country. Your best friend was assigned to the 101st Airborne Division. While you were in college, he deployed to Iraq once and Afghanistan twice. He became a Sergeant and led a squad of 19 year old soldiers who grew up just like he did. He shed his blood in Afghanistan and watched young American's give their lives, limbs, and innocence for the USA.

You went to the NFL combine and scored off the charts. You hired an agent and waited for draft day. You were drafted in the first round and your agent immediately went to work, ensuring that you received the most money possible. You signed for $16 million although you had never played a single down of professional football. Your best friend re-enlisted in the Army for four more years. As a combat tested sergeant, he will be paid $32,000 per year.

You will drive a Ferrari on the streets of South Beach. He will ride in the back of a Blackhawk helicopter with 10 other combat loaded soldiers. You will sleep at the Ritz. He will dig a hole in the ground and try to sleep. You will “make it rain� in the club. He will pray for rain as the temperature reaches 120 degrees.

On Sunday, you will run into a stadium as tens of thousands of fans cheer and yell your name. For your best friend, there is little difference between Sunday and any other day of the week. There are no adoring fans. There are only people trying to kill him and his soldiers. Every now and then, he and his soldiers leave the front lines and “go to the rear� to rest. He might be lucky enough to catch an NFL game on TV. When the National Anthem plays and you take a knee, he will jump to his feet and salute the television. While you protest the unfairness of life in the United States, he will give thanks to God that he has the honor of defending his great country.

To the players of the NFL: We are the people who buy your tickets, watch you on TV, and wear your jerseys. We anxiously wait for Sundays so we can cheer for you and marvel at your athleticism. Although we love to watch you play, we care little about your opinions until you offend us. You have the absolute right to express yourselves, but we have the absolute right to boycott you. We have tolerated your drug use and DUIs, your domestic violence, and your vulgar displays of wealth. We should be ashamed for putting our admiration of your physical skills before what is morally right. But now you have gone too far. You have insulted our flag, our country, our soldiers, our police officers, and our veterans. You are living the American dream, yet you disparage our great country. I am done with NFL football and encourage all likeminded Americans to boycott the NFL as well.

[BIGLRY]

Dear NFL player,

You graduated high school in 2011. Your teenage years were a struggle. You grew up on the wrong side of the tracks. Your mother was the leader of the family and worked tirelessly to keep a roof over your head and food on your plate. Academics were a struggle for you and your grades were mediocre at best. The only thing that made you stand out is you weighed 225 lbs and could run 40 yards in 4.2 seconds while carrying a football. Your best friend was just like you, except he didn’t play football. Instead of going to football practice after school, he went to work at McDonalds for minimum wage. You were recruited by all the big colleges and spent every weekend of your senior year making visits to universities where coaches and boosters tried to convince you their school was best. They laid out the red carpet for you. Your best friend worked double shifts at Mickey D’s. College was not an option for him. On the day you signed with Big State University, your best friend signed paperwork with his Army recruiter. You went to summer workouts. He went to basic training.

You spent the next four years living in the athletic dorm, eating at the training table. You spent your Saturdays on the football field, cheered on by adoring fans. Tutors attended to your every academic need. You attended class when you felt like it. Sure, you worked hard. You lifted weights, ran sprints, studied plays, and soon became one of the top football players in the country. Your best friend was assigned to the 101st Airborne Division. While you were in college, he deployed to Iraq once and Afghanistan twice. He became a Sergeant and led a squad of 19 year old soldiers who grew up just like he did. He shed his blood in Afghanistan and watched young American's give their lives, limbs, and innocence for the USA.

You went to the NFL combine and scored off the charts. You hired an agent and waited for draft day. You were drafted in the first round and your agent immediately went to work, ensuring that you received the most money possible. You signed for $16 million although you had never played a single down of professional football. Your best friend re-enlisted in the Army for four more years. As a combat tested sergeant, he will be paid $32,000 per year.

You will drive a Ferrari on the streets of South Beach. He will ride in the back of a Blackhawk helicopter with 10 other combat loaded soldiers. You will sleep at the Ritz. He will dig a hole in the ground and try to sleep. You will “make it rain� in the club. He will pray for rain as the temperature reaches 120 degrees.

On Sunday, you will run into a stadium as tens of thousands of fans cheer and yell your name. For your best friend, there is little difference between Sunday and any other day of the week. There are no adoring fans. There are only people trying to kill him and his soldiers. Every now and then, he and his soldiers leave the front lines and “go to the rear� to rest. He might be lucky enough to catch an NFL game on TV. When the National Anthem plays and you take a knee, he will jump to his feet and salute the television. While you protest the unfairness of life in the United States, he will give thanks to God that he has the honor of defending his great country.

To the players of the NFL: We are the people who buy your tickets, watch you on TV, and wear your jerseys. We anxiously wait for Sundays so we can cheer for you and marvel at your athleticism. Although we love to watch you play, we care little about your opinions until you offend us. You have the absolute right to express yourselves, but we have the absolute right to boycott you. We have tolerated your drug use and DUIs, your domestic violence, and your vulgar displays of wealth. We should be ashamed for putting our admiration of your physical skills before what is morally right. But now you have gone too far. You have insulted our flag, our country, our soldiers, our police officers, and our veterans. You are living the American dream, yet you disparage our great country. I am done with NFL football and encourage all likeminded Americans to boycott the NFL as well.
Well said!
http://rs211.pbsrc.com/albums/bb258/czeineh/clapping.gif?w=280&h=210&fit=crop

[ths61]

http://origin.webcdn.theblackdesertonline.net/forum/service_live/monthly_12_2015/plus.jpg.c254123afff27912076ea6825373d1f4.jpg
My Sunday, Monday, and any other day the NFL is on is now another good reason to take a ride or a walk on the beach which both lower my BP and let me contemplate how much I love both.

Have you been dusting off the metal detector lately ?

[BIGLRY]

Have you been dusting off the metal detector lately ?Every morning before sunrise.
Here is a link to a local tv news story and vid done on me last Aug. http://www.ksby.com/story/36082856/inspiring-the-central-coast-finding-lost-items-at-the-beach

[willtill]

Every morning before sunrise.
Here is a link to a local tv news story and vid done on me last Aug. http://www.ksby.com/story/36082856/inspiring-the-central-coast-finding-lost-items-at-the-beach

Larry...


You are Awesome

:yes: :yes:

[53driver]

Every morning before sunrise.
Here is a link to a local tv news story and vid done on me last Aug. http://www.ksby.com/story/36082856/inspiring-the-central-coast-finding-lost-items-at-the-beach


Larry...


You are Awesome

:yes: :yes:

http://origin.webcdn.theblackdesertonline.net/forum/service_live/monthly_12_2015/plus.jpg.c254123afff27912076ea6825373d1f4.jpg


That is inspiring, my friend!
Kudos and thanks to you!
Cheers,
Steve

[53driver]

http://www.thedailysheeple.com/shock-report-nfls-oakland-raiders-threw-game-after-white-qb-refused-to-kneel-for-national-anthem_092017

This is funny - if true or if not.

[BIGLRY]

http://www.thedailysheeple.com/shock-report-nfls-oakland-raiders-threw-game-after-white-qb-refused-to-kneel-for-national-anthem_092017

This is funny - if true or if not.yep and if it is true and proven, stick a fork in them.... the NFL's Raiders are done.

[F6Broy]

I have been reading this thread for a few days and I finally decided to comment on several things.
1. Big Larry, I have not met you but sure would like to have a beer with you. I was also a grunt and was discharged in October 1970. I enjoy your insight.
2. I spent a 45 year career defending the constitution and I would defend any of these players rights if they went downtown on Tuesday and protested and held a sign. However, they cross the line showing disrespect for our flag while representing their team and the NFL. I blead for that flag.I watch sports for sports not political commentary.
3. John McCain, is a legitimate American hero. Anyone who signs away their life to Uncle Sam understands this. He endured captivity and torture for this country. Howeve, this does not mean you have to like his politics. I respect the service but despise his politics.He is in no way a conservative and has lied on his positions a few times. I think sometimes the lines get blurred between his military service and his political life.
4. I do kinda thank the NFL because they have freed up a lot of time for me to ride my F6B. F6Broy

[ths61]

Every morning before sunrise.
Here is a link to a local tv news story and vid done on me last Aug. http://www.ksby.com/story/36082856/inspiring-the-central-coast-finding-lost-items-at-the-beach

Very cool report. Looks like you have your techniques down.

[masonmike]

A great read Steve, very moving.
Thank you

[taxfree4]

Every morning before sunrise.
Here is a link to a local tv news story and vid done on me last Aug. http://www.ksby.com/story/36082856/inspiring-the-central-coast-finding-lost-items-at-the-beach

Gentlemen,

A celebrity dwells amongst us, too bad Hollywood Squares is off the air I'd give anything to say "Give me BIGLRY to block."

[BIGLRY]

Gentlemen,

A celebrity dwells amongst us, too bad Hollywood Squares is off the air I'd give anything to say "Give me BIGLRY to block."
Loved that show and grew up loving her.:shhh:
http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/actress-barbara-eden-on-the-set-of-the-hollywood-squares-2-game-show-picture-id2561478

[wjduke]

Late to this dance, but Big Larry! That's the coolest bit I've seen in a long time. We all feel like we now know a celebrity! You're an awesome guy, here and for real!

[grendl]

OK I hear and understand most of the above a a counterpoint please.
The NFL players kneeling was NOT about disrespecting the Flag or the anthem ! Trump changed the point of the display. They did not ceremoniously Burn the flag or turn there backs or make any drastic display. The point and the WHOLE point was and is the way Police are killing and disrespecting Black Americans -for no reason. Children being shot dead with no question or hesitation playing in the park. Family men being killed in front of their families with no question or reason. A black man being choked to death for selling loose cigarettes with his last words being'I cant breathe'. A young black woman on her way to a new job,pulled over for a traffic stop dies in her jail cell overnight. Travon Martin stalked and shot dead for no reason at all and all the people that did this are FREE ! A guy gets pulled over ,asked for his ID even though he was not the driver and is shot dead in front of his Wife/girlfreind and their child for reaching for it. Guy pulls into a service station demands the kids turn their music down, they tell him to piss off and he kills one of them.(He did go to jail though)
Gentlemen, thats what this is about.There are more but the point is made hopefully . That was Colin's stated reason,but it kept(keeps) happening ! Law abiding citizens ! We can march and protest but that is met by military armed police and National guard and doesnt end well typically.
We needed to draw attention in a peaceful manner and I respect that method. It got everybodys attention but then the reason was obscured under this 'patriotism' facade.
I am one of 5 american men that dont watch football-I go riding,or do something else.I dont care and have always considered that this person is paid how much to play a frickin' game !?? However enough people do and were shocked at the display but dont change the point to have a vehement debate.It wasn't/isnt about that. IF you want to have a debate let's keep it real.

[Davidk]

As a retired 25 year Army Vet, I am torn on this issue. Personally, I find their actions appalling. At the same time, I took an oath to support and defend the Constitution - including their First Amendment right to do this very thing. So....part of me is proud that we live in a country where people have the right to do this, but disappointed they choose to do so.

Their issue probably has merit, but it is getting lost on how they are addressing it. There is no dialogue on why they are protesting, only on how they are protesting. Kind of self-defeating.

Unless you've served (except for patriotic folks like that are here on this board), it is hard to imagine what the flag and the anthem means to a Soldier. We salute it at the start of the day when it is raised, and salute it at the end of the day when it is lowered. That flag has covered the coffins of our brothers in arms. Many say it is just a piece of cloth - but to a veteran it so much more.

I cannot control the actions of others - but I am in complete charge of my own. Therefore, I am choosing to boycott NFL games - there are plenty of collage games to feed my interest. YMMV.

Yes, they DO have the right to protest, but I also have the right to object and boycott their sorry, over paid asses.

[Davidk]

OK I hear and understand most of the above a a counterpoint please.
The NFL players kneeling was NOT about disrespecting the Flag or the anthem ! Trump changed the point of the display. They did not ceremoniously Burn the flag or turn there backs or make any drastic display. The point and the WHOLE point was and is the way Police are killing and disrespecting Black Americans -for no reason. Children being shot dead with no question or hesitation playing in the park. Family men being killed in front of their families with no question or reason. A black man being choked to death for selling loose cigarettes with his last words being'I cant breathe'. A young black woman on her way to a new job,pulled over for a traffic stop dies in her jail cell overnight. Travon Martin stalked and shot dead for no reason at all and all the people that did this are FREE ! A guy gets pulled over ,asked for his ID even though he was not the driver and is shot dead in front of his Wife/girlfreind and their child for reaching for it. Guy pulls into a service station demands the kids turn their music down, they tell him to piss off and he kills one of them.(He did go to jail though)
Gentlemen, thats what this is about.There are more but the point is made hopefully . That was Colin's stated reason,but it kept(keeps) happening ! Law abiding citizens ! We can march and protest but that is met by military armed police and National guard and doesnt end well typically.
We needed to draw attention in a peaceful manner and I respect that method. It got everybodys attention but then the reason was obscured under this 'patriotism' facade.
I am one of 5 american men that dont watch football-I go riding,or do something else.I dont care and have always considered that this person is paid how much to play a frickin' game !?? However enough people do and were shocked at the display but dont change the point to have a vehement debate.It wasn't/isnt about that. IF you want to have a debate let's keep it real.

“Travon Martin stalked and shot dead for no reason at all�. You just lost all credibility.

[Heatnbeat]

Grendl, with all due respect:
Hundreds of young black men are murdered by other young black men for every one that is killed by the police. And those young black men are murdered outright, not while struggling with a police officer and trying to take his firearm.
I find it totally bogus that these players are trying to draw attention to a small number of police shootings (many of which are fully justified) and make no attempt to draw attention to the murders commited by other young blacks.

[Davidk]

Grendl, with all due respect:
Hundreds of young black men are murdered by other young black men for every one that is killed by the police. And those young black men are murdered outright, not while struggling with a police officer and trying to take his firearm.
I find it totally bogus that these players are trying to draw attention to a small number of police shootings (many of which are fully justified) and make no attempt to draw attention to the murders commited by other young blacks.


+1

[Old N Grumpy]

“Travon Martin stalked and shot dead for no reason at all�. You just lost all credibility.

Thanks David...you beat me to the punch.

[grendl]

+1
Totally correct,David and that fact grieves me . Growing up where I did I have lost friends to that insanity - people I grew up with from childhood. I took classes and used my on experience to try to comprehend why that happens.I think I got it but I still struggle with why we wont stop it,staying in a situation that promotes it.It's not enough for me to say "I got out" when I have to look back and see it more prevalent now than it was when I was a 'kid' Toward that end whenever I can have the opportunity I pull these youngsters aside and if I can get a conversation I try to give the fruit of my experience to them. I am in a position where I can hire people and although I have to respect the law I do try to attempt to give opportunity for a decent job and income to get people off the streets and that culture.I have many stories about that and would be it's own post that I am not willing to start.Understand that I do not and cannot hire every black person that applies-that approach is wrong on a few levels.
I want to be clear - I do the same for any person that comes in,presents themselves properly and shows that they want a better life
That said it becomes more greivious to see innocent people (regardless of race) treated like that. Which brings me back to the point of this discussion.
The point of kneeling is to bring attention to when this happens. Thats it.The terrible fact of how many of each other WE kill does not excuse innocent people being shot at will for no reason.I am not trying t disparage all police.I also have friends and acquaintances that are police.In my youth I applied and was accepted to become a cop but by the time they called I had a better paying job which led me to where I am now.
On the Travon issue what I have read was the kid went to a 7/11 was followed by a neighborhood watch guy with a gun who accosted him then attacked him,lost the fight and then shot him. Travon wasnt selling drugs,had nothing on him and had no criminal history.
Guys,I walk my neighborhood,wear a hoodie(I shave my head and it's cold) and yes if anyone jumped out at me would be met with swift and devastating resistance.(I dont want to carry and shouldn't have to just to grab a gallon of milk from a 7/11 a half mile away.)
If my facts are incorrect on this feel free to correct me.
David I get your point. A couple of years ago there was a little girl who was selling chocolate for her school.Two "gangsters" came up on her claimed she wasnt supposed to sell anything on 'their' corner which they will never own and shot her. A little girl selling chocolate for a school outing.
That still tears me up inside....but thats another subject.

[Retired Army]

In my opinion the point is freedom. If an individual is not happy residing in America they are free to leave.

[opas ride]

In my opinion the point is freedom. If an individual is not happy residing in America they are free to leave.

100% correct my friend...No country in the world is without issues...Move somewhere else if your not happy here and don't shove your "BS" little boy issues down my throat!!!...JMHO

[Davidk]

To the NFL players who took a knee during the playing of the National Anthem.

So, you want to take a knee?

Take a trip to Valley Forge in January. Hold a musket ball in your fingers and imagine it piercing your flesh and breaking a bone or two. There won't be a doctor or trainer to assist you until after the battle. Wait your turn while listening to the screams of pain from the wounded.
Then take a knee.

Go to Normandy where man after American man stormed the beach, dodging dead bodies and withering machine gun fire,...the very sea stained with American blood. Imagine that your fellow players are your dead brothers in arms.
Then take a knee.

Take a knee in the sweat soaked jungles of Vietnam. Over 60,000 Americans died in those jungles.There was no playbook or million dollar contracts for doing your job, but they understood what our flag represented. When they came home, they were protested by their fellow Americans.
Then take a knee while they spit on you..

Take another knee in the blood drenched sands of Fallujah in 110 degree heat..Trade in your pads for a Kevlar helmet and battle dress...You'll have to stay hydrated, but there won't be anyone to squirt Gatorade into your mouth. And watch out for those IEDs when you take a knee.

There's a lot of places to take a knee. Americans have given their lives all over the world. When you use the banner under which they fought as a source for your protest, you dishonor the memories of those who bled for the very freedoms you have. That's what the red stripes mean. It represents the blood of those who spilled it defending your liberty.

So while you're on your knee, pray for those that came before you, not on manicured fields striped and printed with numbers to announce every inch of game yardage...but on nameless hills and bloodied beaches and sweltering forests and bitter cold mountains...every inch marked by an American life lost serving that flag you protest.

No cheerleaders, no announcers, no coaches, no fans...just American men and women on the land, air, and sea, delivering the real fight against those who chose to harm us..so you would have the opportunity to dishonor their service by "taking a knee."

You have no clue what it took to get you where you are...but your "protest" is duly noted. Not only is it disgraceful to a nation, it points to your ingratitude for those who chose to defend you under that banner that will still wave long after your stats and game jersey are forgotten...

If you really feel the need to take a knee, come with me to church on Sunday and we'll both kneel before Almighty God. We'll thank Him for preserving this country for as long as He has. We'll beg forgiveness for both of our ingratitude for all He has provided us. We'll appeal to Him for understanding and wisdom. We'll pray for liberty and justice for all....because He is the one who provides those things.

But no protesting allowed. There will only be gratitude for His provision and a plea for His continued grace and mercy on the land of the free and the home of the brave.

[taxfree4]

Just to clarify, the First Amendment to the Bill of Rights protects American citizens against the government prohibiting their free expression. It has absolutely nothing to do with a spoiled, mediocre, America hating employee of a private organization, the NFL, and his America hating asswipe buddies, disrupting, at his workplace, the one minute and 37 seconds when all Americans, from whatever and wherever, come together to pay tribute to those who gave the ultimate sacrifice. And enjoy this gift of American Freedom paid for by the blood of the brave. It shows total and complete ignorance and disrespect for everything that is sacred to America and Americans.

If you are so wrapped up in yourself and your race, creed or color is more important than rising to the common unity of being a participant in this, the greatest experiment of human freedom, then get the fuck out. The boat is waiting for you at the the dock, the plane is on the tarmac, hurry and make room so one who appreciates freedom and is willing to join in and work hard, persevere and succeed can come here and be an American. I am not an Italian American, just an American, and if Italy slid off into the ocean today I would go home, eat a full meal and get a good night's sleep. What should happen at this private place of business is if ANYONE either takes a knee or doesn't hold their hand on their heart or salute you are not only out of the game but you are not paid for that game, do it 3X and you're off the team.

Instead of taking a knee when you're worried about people being shot, on your own time and with your own money, teach people to shut their mouths when pulled over by cops and follow their instructions. I have access to court proceedings and transcripts so if you disagree please give me the case you are citing where someone was pulled over and shot while cooperating with law enforcement.

And being this era of Trump, where the common folk are heard, I would put it on them that until every one of those American hating slime that took a knee publicly apologizes to their fellow Americans for disrespecting the flag and the anthem the stadiums will remain empty. I can dream can't I.

[Walcrow]

Just to clarify, the First Amendment to the Bill of Rights protects American citizens against the government prohibiting their free expression. It has absolutely nothing to do with a spoiled, mediocre, America hating employee of a private organization, the NFL, and his America hating asswipe buddies, disrupting, at his workplace, the one minute and 37 seconds when all Americans, from whatever and wherever, come together to pay tribute to those who gave the ultimate sacrifice. And enjoy this gift of American Freedom paid for by the blood of the brave. It shows total and complete ignorance and disrespect for everything that is sacred to America and Americans.

If you are so wrapped up in yourself and your race, creed or color is more important than rising to the common unity of being a participant in this, the greatest experiment of human freedom, then get the fuck out. The boat is waiting for you at the the dock, the plane is on the tarmac, hurry and make room so one who appreciates freedom and is willing to join in and work hard, persevere and succeed can come here and be an American. I am not an Italian American, just an American, and if Italy slid off into the ocean today I would go home, eat a full meal and get a good night's sleep. What should happen at this private place of business is if ANYONE either takes a knee or doesn't hold their hand on their heart or salute you are not only out of the game but you are not paid for that game, do it 3X and you're off the team.

Instead of taking a knee when you're worried about people being shot, on your own time and with your own money, teach people to shut their mouths when pulled over by cops and follow their instructions. I have access to court proceedings and transcripts so if you disagree please give me the case you are citing where someone was pulled over and shot while cooperating with law enforcement.

And being this era of Trump, where the common folk are heard, I would put it on them that until every one of those American hating slime that took a knee publicly apologizes to their fellow Americans for disrespecting the flag and the anthem the stadiums will remain empty. I can dream can't I.

:yes::yes::yes:

[taxfree4]

And whether you like this version or not say what you want but a real man, not a spoiled asswipe, who achieved a certain amount of fame and served his country, while probably experiencing true racism, didn't use it as a crutch or an excuse. He gave honor to the anthem and therefore the flag, in HIS own way, and gave it as a gift to the people at Woodstock and therefore the world. Humble and with a true sense of what he thought was a display of American Pride, that is how a grown up professional operates Mr. Kapernick or whatever your name is.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B-ZYUaRKQkk


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vgyGJl_xm6o

[Verismo]

Totally correct,David and that fact grieves me . Growing up where I did I have lost friends to that insanity - people I grew up with from childhood. I took classes and used my on experience to try to comprehend why that happens.I think I got it but I still struggle with why we wont stop it,staying in a situation that promotes it.It's not enough for me to say "I got out" when I have to look back and see it more prevalent now than it was when I was a 'kid' Toward that end whenever I can have the opportunity I pull these youngsters aside and if I can get a conversation I try to give the fruit of my experience to them. I am in a position where I can hire people and although I have to respect the law I do try to attempt to give opportunity for a decent job and income to get people off the streets and that culture.I have many stories about that and would be it's own post that I am not willing to start.Understand that I do not and cannot hire every black person that applies-that approach is wrong on a few levels.
I want to be clear - I do the same for any person that comes in,presents themselves properly and shows that they want a better life
That said it becomes more greivious to see innocent people (regardless of race) treated like that. Which brings me back to the point of this discussion.
The point of kneeling is to bring attention to when this happens. Thats it.The terrible fact of how many of each other WE kill does not excuse innocent people being shot at will for no reason.I am not trying t disparage all police.I also have friends and acquaintances that are police.In my youth I applied and was accepted to become a cop but by the time they called I had a better paying job which led me to where I am now.
On the Travon issue what I have read was the kid went to a 7/11 was followed by a neighborhood watch guy with a gun who accosted him then attacked him,lost the fight and then shot him. Travon wasnt selling drugs,had nothing on him and had no criminal history.
Guys,I walk my neighborhood,wear a hoodie(I shave my head and it's cold) and yes if anyone jumped out at me would be met with swift and devastating resistance.(I dont want to carry and shouldn't have to just to grab a gallon of milk from a 7/11 a half mile away.)
If my facts are incorrect on this feel free to correct me.
David I get your point. A couple of years ago there was a little girl who was selling chocolate for her school.Two "gangsters" came up on her claimed she wasnt supposed to sell anything on 'their' corner which they will never own and shot her. A little girl selling chocolate for a school outing.
That still tears me up inside....but thats another subject.

It seems pretty straightforward to me, grendl, and I appreciate your moderated tone on the matter(s).

Jason

[tiltingf6b]

Just thinking how the spoiled brat football players sent their no respect to the flag and anthem..Here is your sign ! Boycott and would like to see that league out of business..Unbelievable no meaning or respect to the United States of America and the price paid by many ..Trump should not get involved with these loses but it isn't about him.God Bless America and all that served to protect this country and that flag.. And one more thing what a man on the Steelers team that stood and honored the flag and anthem while his gutless teammates didnt

I kneel before God and I can kneel before a flag - I served 21 years and retired as a CWO3 EOD Officer. I say if they want to kneel that's their right.

Imagine - If Mr. Trump would have been clever he would have kept his mouth shut, then marched out on the field at the next NFL game, taken the microphone and knelt beside the players put his hand over his heart and said a prayer before or after the anthem asking all people to end the unnecessary violence we are experiencing, and make America SAFE AGAIN.

It's whatever you want to assign (with your thoughts) to a thing or action. Be smarter than those that get sucked into the rhetoric of political hate mongering.

[tiltingf6b]

To the NFL players who took a knee during the playing of the National Anthem.

So, you want to take a knee?

Take a trip to Valley Forge in January. Hold a musket ball in your fingers and imagine it piercing your flesh and breaking a bone or two. There won't be a doctor or trainer to assist you until after the battle. Wait your turn while listening to the screams of pain from the wounded.
Then take a knee.

Go to Normandy where man after American man stormed the beach, dodging dead bodies and withering machine gun fire,...the very sea stained with American blood. Imagine that your fellow players are your dead brothers in arms.
Then take a knee.

Take a knee in the sweat soaked jungles of Vietnam. Over 60,000 Americans died in those jungles.There was no playbook or million dollar contracts for doing your job, but they understood what our flag represented. When they came home, they were protested by their fellow Americans.
Then take a knee while they spit on you..

Take another knee in the blood drenched sands of Fallujah in 110 degree heat..Trade in your pads for a Kevlar helmet and battle dress...You'll have to stay hydrated, but there won't be anyone to squirt Gatorade into your mouth. And watch out for those IEDs when you take a knee.

There's a lot of places to take a knee. Americans have given their lives all over the world. When you use the banner under which they fought as a source for your protest, you dishonor the memories of those who bled for the very freedoms you have. That's what the red stripes mean. It represents the blood of those who spilled it defending your liberty.

So while you're on your knee, pray for those that came before you, not on manicured fields striped and printed with numbers to announce every inch of game yardage...but on nameless hills and bloodied beaches and sweltering forests and bitter cold mountains...every inch marked by an American life lost serving that flag you protest.

No cheerleaders, no announcers, no coaches, no fans...just American men and women on the land, air, and sea, delivering the real fight against those who chose to harm us..so you would have the opportunity to dishonor their service by "taking a knee."

You have no clue what it took to get you where you are...but your "protest" is duly noted. Not only is it disgraceful to a nation, it points to your ingratitude for those who chose to defend you under that banner that will still wave long after your stats and game jersey are forgotten...

If you really feel the need to take a knee, come with me to church on Sunday and we'll both kneel before Almighty God. We'll thank Him for preserving this country for as long as He has. We'll beg forgiveness for both of our ingratitude for all He has provided us. We'll appeal to Him for understanding and wisdom. We'll pray for liberty and justice for all....because He is the one who provides those things.

But no protesting allowed. There will only be gratitude for His provision and a plea for His continued grace and mercy on the land of the free and the home of the brave.
Well written DavidK - but I think there is a way to do both - see my post.

[dadeo]

But do players have the right to protest at NFL sanctioned events, including games? That is a purely legal question governed by the players' contracts and union agreements. The league PROBABLY DOES have the right to prohibit some, or all, players from exercising their constitutional right of first amendment expression at an NFL event. The NFL is not a governmental entity.

Now should the NFL go after the players? My personal opinion on this is that they should let the players do what they want, as long as their actions don't disrupt events. The players will either make their point and people will come to agree with them, or they won't.

What is also important is how the fan base reacts. Those who object to the player's protests SHOULD voice those objections, but they shouldn't try to bring down the league thru boycotts, as long as the players show up, play as hard as they can, and don't disrupt the game.

In my book people are getting far too worked up over what the players are doing. The players actions reflect what they have seen themselves. Even myself, a white, fairly wealthy man, has seen and heard far too many white people openly discriminate. I live in Northern VA, supposedly the liberal part of the state. I've listened to cops saying that they pull over blacks just because they are driving expensive cars, checking out black kids walking in supposedly white neighborhoods, who turned out to live there. I've got a black neighbor in the Air Force, married to a white women who was also in the Air Force. The stories they tell us are sick. Recent stories.

My opinion is that these things are still happening in 2017. And it needs to stop.

[dadeo]

In my opinion the point is freedom. If an individual is not happy residing in America they are free to leave.

Good god man, I thought that sort of attitude went out in 1965.

Are you seriously happy with everything our government does? I could have said the same thing back in 2011 when the Repbulicons were all about taking down Obama. If you were so unhappy with how America voted in 2008 and 12, then you too were free to leave.

What a moronic thing to say.

[taxfree4]

People tune in and have been tuning in to sports to escape the everyday B.S. that goes on in their lives whether it is political, familial, work-related etc.. In these times where both parents may work maybe 6 days a week Football Sunday is their only escape and maybe the only thing they can afford. To inject at your workplace your personal and political fantasies, wrong as they are, at the precise moment a memorial is being played is like talking on your cellphone during the playing of Taps, you can do it but all you're showing is how ignorant and stupid you are. And for the technically challenged out there here is the law 36 U.S. Code § 301

(a)Designation.—
The composition consisting of the words and music known as the Star-Spangled Banner is the national anthem.
(b)Conduct During Playing.—During a rendition of the national anthem—
(1) when the flag is displayed—
(A) individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note;
(B) members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute in the manner provided for individuals in uniform; and
(C) all other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and
(2) when the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed.

This is how you handle these overpayed, under-informed, attention-starved babies, let a private school show you how it's done.

http://abc7chicago.com/sports/football-players-kicked-off-team-after-taking-knee-during-anthem/2475204/

You want to protest do it on your own time and your own dime don't ruin my Sunday with your B.S.. The problem is men have been sissified into this "symbolism over substance". Colin Kapernick, like OJ couldn't give a rats ass about the people they talk about and they certainly don't want to live in those communities where they think this is happening. They want to ride right by these places on their way to golf courses, luncheons at poolside, shopping on Rodeo Drive and their villas. But from the safety of a stadium where people come to escape the world, and are charged heavily to pay for these overpriced mediocre players, they have to be exposed to this drivel. Again, the Bill of Rights Freedom clause does not apply to a private business, tax exempt no less, so that argument is moot, you either honor the flag/anthem or you don't.

[dadeo]

I revised my post,

So you think it's more important to stand for a symbol than protest racism in this country. And you feel this way so you can "escape" your everyday life.
I don't know which is sadder: that you feel people have to escape everyday life, or that we still have so much racism and you fail to recognize it.

And just because a bunch of falsely patriotic morons in Congress passed such stupidly as a law, does not mean it would ever stand the test of a court.

Folks like you would rather stick there head in the ground than see, and do, something about overt racism in this country.

Oh, well

[willtill]

Good god man, I thought that sort of attitude went out in 1965.

Are you seriously happy with everything our government does? I could have said the same thing back in 2011 when the Repbulicons were all about taking down Obama. If you were so unhappy with how America voted in 2008 and 12, then you too were free to leave.

What a moronic thing to say.

I think he meant that for the long haul.

I also believe that the unfair treatment that minorities purportedly endure from law enforcement is hugely blown out of proportion. Getting pulled over and not cooperating; and demanding “respect� is not going to fly well.... for anyone... black or white when encountering law enforcement.

Go with the drill... and move along.

Applicable to anyone.

Over 305 murders this year eight miles north of my local. Mostly black on black. And no one says “boo� about that. Been going on for years... maybe other municipalities don’t want that crap moving in on them. Hence the heightened scrutiny of the very subjects that represent that carnage.

Do I agree with that? No, not at all. But it is what it is. Take that with a grain of salt.

[taxfree4]

I revised my post,

So you think it's more important to stand for a symbol than protest racism in this country. And you feel this way so you can "escape" your everyday life.
I don't know which is sadder: that you feel people have to escape everyday life, or that we still have so much racism and you fail to recognize it.

And just because a bunch of falsely patriotic morons in Congress passed such stupidly as a law, does not mean it would ever stand the test of a court.

Folks like you would rather stick there head in the ground than see, and do, something about overt racism in this country.

Oh, well

The only symbolism going on is kneeling during the national anthem. It solves nothing, it accomplishes even less. It is a superficial, vapid display consisting of nothing but schoolgirl symbolism put on by empty headed, overpaid idiots. However, that "symbol" you refer to, the flag/anthem, and the honor given it is the representation of the millions of dead soldiers who gave the ultimate sacrifice to give you the oppurtunity to spout the ignorance of that sacrifice from your mouth. Racism, are you serious? Is that what they teach you in city universities? There isn't a business out there that would discriminate in fear of the EEOC or a DOJ action, the only time the government authorizes racism for curing racism is Affirmative Action, please save your drama for another forum.

Calling a law you don't like passed by " a bunch of patriotic morons in Congress" tells me more about you that is why you are synoptic with the ignorance and stupidity of CK. Your misuse of "there" instead of "their" also tells me Public School or day care, just thinking out loud. I certainly want to do something about overt racism so I'm taking a knee right now on my own time and not during the national anthem to stop Affirmative Action. Funny when I arose it was still there. Gee, that was dumb, I'm not doing that again. Maybe if the cops were mandated to use body cams we could solve this problem like here:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wHnqZq9yP8c

[Walcrow]

The only symbolism going on is kneeling during the national anthem. It solves nothing, it accomplishes even less. It is a superficial, vapid display consisting of nothing but schoolgirl symbolism put on by empty headed, overpaid idiots. However, that "symbol" you refer to, the flag/anthem, and the honor given it is the representation of the millions of dead soldiers who gave the ultimate sacrifice to give you the oppurtunity to spout the ignorance of that sacrifice from your mouth. Racism, are you serious? Is that what they teach you in city universities? There isn't a business out there that would discriminate in fear of the EEOC or a DOJ action, the only time the government authorizes racism for curing racism is Affirmative Action, please save your drama for another forum.

Calling a law you don't like passed by " a bunch of patriotic morons in Congress" tells me more about you that is why you are synoptic with the ignorance and stupidity of CK. Your misuse of "there" instead of "their" also tells me Public School or day care, just thinking out loud. I certainly want to do something about overt racism so I'm taking a knee right now on my own time and not during the national anthem to stop Affirmative Action. Funny when I arose it was still there. Gee, that was dumb, I'm not doing that again. Maybe if the cops were mandated to use body cams we could solve this problem like here:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wHnqZq9yP8c

Well said, Mike. :yes:

[willtill]

TaxFree4 needs to start his own talk/reality show. In my humble opinion... he certainly espouses what the rest of the silent majority thinks in this country. :yes:

Consistently.

Thank you Mike. :yes:

And leftist leaning folks wonder why how Trump got elected... go figure.... :icon_rolleyes:

[dadeo]

I disagree with this in every way:

"I also believe that the unfair treatment that minorities purportedly endure from law enforcement is hugely blown out of proportion. Getting pulled over and not cooperating; and demanding “respect� is not going to fly well.... for anyone... black or white when encountering law enforcement."

Why?
Because I've seen it. I had to intervene with Fairfax County cop who thought it was a good idea to go after my neighbor's kid. Black kid. Out late at night walking his big dog. No ID. So was I... So don't tell me that some LEOs don't have a hard on for going after black kids in an otherwise white neighborhood.

I used to think every LEO should be given the benefit of the doubt in every situation, after all my wife's cousin was a NYC cop until he was killed by a stupid kid throwing trash off the roof of a 5 storey walk up. But that 1993 weekend taught me allot about cops and Republican politicians. The cop union bosses (not the precinct rep) linked up with Republican mayoral candidate Rudy Giuliani and tried to use his death as a political issue. Old Rudy made a stupid kid's dumb act into a Federal offense. Against the wishes of the cops and our family, who only wanted to be let alone. And this was before social media, the fake news media and the rest. You know that the only news outlet that got the story right: The New York Times. The supposedly Liberal Media. They were the only ones that had the decency to ask us for interviews and treat us with respect. The tabloids, NY Post, Daily News, Newsday, would ambush us in the street, outside the funeral home, our hotels, and where we ate. They made up stories based on the word of a wanna be that he had a fiance and or was secretly married. It was awful. I view these guys as today's version of Internet trolls, who don't care what the facts are, but are just out to write up their own version of events. I can't imagine what such an event is like today. Conservative medial and Rudy. Perfect together.

You know what they say: A liberal is someone whose been falsely accused, but also one who has burned by conservative media, or in my case, witnessed such.

[taxfree4]

I disagree with this in every way:

"I also believe that the unfair treatment that minorities purportedly endure from law enforcement is hugely blown out of proportion. Getting pulled over and not cooperating; and demanding “respect� is not going to fly well.... for anyone... black or white when encountering law enforcement."

Why?
Because I've seen it. I had to intervene with Fairfax County cop who thought it was a good idea to go after my neighbor's kid. Black kid. Out late at night walking his big dog. No ID. So was I... So don't tell me that some LEOs don't have a hard on for going after black kids in an otherwise white neighborhood.

I used to think every LEO should be given the benefit of the doubt in every situation, after all my wife's cousin was a NYC cop until he was killed by a stupid kid throwing trash off the roof of a 5 storey walk up. But that 1993 weekend taught me allot about cops and Republican politicians. The cop union bosses (not the precinct rep) linked up with Republican mayoral candidate Rudy Giuliani and tried to use his death as a political issue. Old Rudy made a stupid kid's dumb act into a Federal offense. Against the wishes of the cops and our family, who only wanted to be let alone. And this was before social media, the fake news media and the rest. You know that the only news outlet that got the story right: The New York Times. The supposedly Liberal Media. They were the only ones that had the decency to ask us for interviews and treat us with respect. The tabloids, NY Post, Daily News, Newsday, would ambush us in the street, outside the funeral home, our hotels, and where we ate. They made up stories based on the word of a wanna be that he had a fiance and or was secretly married. It was awful. I view these guys as today's version of Internet trolls, who don't care what the facts are, but are just out to write up their own version of events. I can't imagine what such an event is like today. Conservative medial and Rudy. Perfect together.


You know what they say: A liberal is someone whose been falsely accused, but also one who has burned by conservative media, or in my case, witnessed such.



Intervene a cop doing his duty? You're lucky you didn't wind up with a bullet in your ass. First of all you are required to carry and show ID when asked by an officer. So he was walking a dog, let me guess a toy poodle, and an officer asks him for ID and he says he doesn't have any, red flag no matter what color you are. If there was a nationwide epidemic of black youths in white neighborhoods randomly planting impatience, begonias and tulips I guess there wouldn't be a problem, however, reality being what it is you make your own world. Unfortunately, the people Colin Kapersnake should be mad at is the black youths who do assassinate cops :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdRrG7qz5CQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ku7PpEc64xI (This one they have the shooter on DHS cameras at the Atlantic Avenue Train Station walking past two black officers and exiting the station to assassinate two white officers. These shootings came after a BLM rally where the crowd was chanting "What do we want, dead cops, when do we want them, now)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqQXmnMr_w8

That's who Colin Kapersnake should be protesting against since he is picking on a minority of officers he overlooks the not so minority of black youths who are inculcated from youths to hate cops and be defiant against them. These are the people who make it bad for the rest of them, put cops on edge. And because you have a personal experience doesn't mean you can broad brush all LEO, so what your neighbor's kid learned to always carry ID, big deal, it'll save him a hassle next time.

As far as that story about the cop I'm pretty sure it wasn't trash, I worked in Harlem for 10 years and if I remember that particular story it was a compound bucket aimed and dropped on the head of a police officer. I worked for the phone company there and when we were working we would constantly have to look up because the little bastards would drop bricks, bottles or anything they got their hands on and laugh doing it so tell me about the plight of these poor kids who have nothing better to do than to injure and maybe kill people for fun. Just around the same time in Washington Heights they were throwing Molotov Cocktails at Fire Engines responding to fires.

Guaranteed you voted for Hillary

And just to make it fair I have no problem with cops profiling a car full of Italian guys in a sedan with a low rear trunk area, 9 times out of 10 there is a body or two in there so profiling is a good thing.

[Walcrow]

Just where is Springfield, Vagina? I can't seem to find it on Google Earth :yikes:

[dadeo]

you have no idea what you are talking about, do you?

Seriously, you expect that a 14 year old kid in a low crime neighborhood like ours to get harassed by a cop just b/c he wasn't carrying ID. Are you nuts?

The kids dog was no poodle. The crazy cop was lucky that the kid's Doberman behaved...

But you are obviously off your rocker if you think a kid is going to be carrying around his high school ID when walking a dog in our neighborhood. I wasn't carrying mine. By the way the cop was not uniformed. He was off duty! And he didn't identify himself until I confronted him -- after I got om cell with the local police. When I walked up I had no clue who the clown who was harassing the kid was, but I was sure not going to stand by while he questioned "WTF" my neighbor was doing outside walkin the dog. The situation ended with me handing the phone to the cop, and him being told to walk away with an apology. Which he eventually did. I was asked if I wanted to file a complaint. I decided to drop it the next day after I was told that the guy's supervisor had called the kid's parent. Yeah it was ugly. And it could have been worse, but it wasn't.

So, if you think there aren't any cops with a chip on their shoulder you really don't know much. At all. Fortunately most cops are honest and do care. It's the guys who are on power trips that should be taken off the force.


Intervene a cop doing his duty? You're lucky you didn't wind up with a bullet in your ass. First of all you are required to carry and show ID when asked by an officer. So he was walking a dog, let me guess a toy poodle, and an officer asks him for ID and he says he doesn't have any, red flag no matter what color you are. If there was a nationwide epidemic of black youths in white neighborhoods randomly planting impatience, begonias and tulips I guess there wouldn't be a problem, however, reality being what it is you make your own world. Unfortunately, the people Colin Kapersnake should be mad at is the black youths who do assassinate cops :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdRrG7qz5CQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ku7PpEc64xI (This one they have the shooter on DHS cameras at the Atlantic Avenue Train Station walking past two black officers and exiting the station to assassinate two white officers. These shootings came after a BLM rally where the crowd was chanting "What do we want, dead cops, when do we want them, now)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqQXmnMr_w8

That's who Colin Kapersnake should be protesting against since he is picking on a minority of officers he overlooks the not so minority of black youths who are inculcated from youths to hate cops and be defiant against them. These are the people who make it bad for the rest of them, put cops on edge. And because you have a personal experience doesn't mean you can broad brush all LEO, so what your neighbor's kid learned to always carry ID, big deal, it'll save him a hassle next time.

As far as that story about the cop I'm pretty sure it wasn't trash, I worked in Harlem for 10 years and if I remember that particular story it was a compound bucket aimed and dropped on the head of a police officer. I worked for the phone company there and when we were working we would constantly have to look up because the little bastards would drop bricks, bottles or anything they got their hands on and laugh doing it so tell me about the plight of these poor kids who have nothing better to do than to injure and maybe kill people for fun. Just around the same time in Washington Heights they were throwing Molotov Cocktails at Fire Engines responding to fires.

Guaranteed you voted for Hillary

[Davidk]

you have no idea what you are talking about, do you?

Seriously, you expect that a 14 year old kid in a low crime neighborhood like ours to get harassed by a cop just b/c he wasn't carrying ID. Are you nuts?

The kids dog was no poodle. The crazy cop was lucky that the kid's Doberman behaved...

But you are obviously off your rocker if you think a kid is going to be carrying around his high school ID when walking a dog in our neighborhood. I wasn't carrying mine. By the way the cop was not uniformed. He was off duty! And he didn't identify himself until I confronted him -- after I got om cell with the local police. When I walked up I had no clue who the clown who was harassing the kid was, but I was sure not going to stand by while he questioned "WTF" my neighbor was doing outside walkin the dog. The situation ended with me handing the phone to the cop, and him being told to walk away with an apology. Which he eventually did. I was asked if I wanted to file a complaint. I decided to drop it the next day after I was told that the guy's supervisor had called the kid's parent. Yeah it was ugly. And it could have been worse, but it wasn't.

So, if you think there aren't any cops with a chip on their shoulder you really don't know much. At all. Fortunately most cops are honest and do care. It's the guys who are on power trips that should be taken off the force.



Don’t forget that the entire domestic terrorist organization, BLM, was built on the “Hands up, don’t shoot� lie.

[dadeo]

Just where is Springfield, Vagina? I can't seem to find it on Google Earth :yikes:

VA would be the great "commonwealth" located to the south of Maryland and DC. I guess. Did I misspell it typo. Didn't mean to!

BTW, I've lived here for 35 years. What the heck is a commonwealth? and why is it different from just any old state? I know there are some other states that like this word.

[taxfree4]

you have no idea what you are talking about, do you?

Seriously, you expect that a 14 year old kid in a low crime neighborhood like ours to get harassed by a cop just b/c he wasn't carrying ID. Are you nuts?

The kids dog was no poodle. The crazy cop was lucky that the kid's Doberman behaved...

But you are obviously off your rocker if you think a kid is going to be carrying around his high school ID when walking a dog in our neighborhood. I wasn't carrying mine. By the way the cop was not uniformed. He was off duty! And he didn't identify himself until I confronted him -- after I got om cell with the local police. When I walked up I had no clue who the clown who was harassing the kid was, but I was sure not going to stand by while he questioned "WTF" my neighbor was doing outside walkin the dog. The situation ended with me handing the phone to the cop, and him being told to walk away with an apology. Which he eventually did. I was asked if I wanted to file a complaint. I decided to drop it the next day after I was told that the guy's supervisor had called the kid's parent. Yeah it was ugly. And it could have been worse, but it wasn't.

So, if you think there aren't any cops with a chip on their shoulder you really don't know much. At all. Fortunately most cops are honest and do care. It's the guys who are on power trips that should be taken off the force.

The cop is lucky? Are you serious if that Doberman would have made a move the only thing going through that dog's mind would have been a slug. So that is your basis for what you call systemic police "racism" in this country - a 14 year old with no ID being questioned is tantamount to harassment. This is your example? Apparently it wasn't that bad as you yourself said you decided not to file a complaint. You'd never make it here if that's your threshold. Colin Kapersnake is taking a knee reading this because he's laughing his ass off.

It's guys like you that are enablers who tell these kids that everything that happens to them is because of their race and THAT is the real problem. They grow up and when confronted by failure in life instead of teaching them to persevere and learn from their mistakes you teach them to blame someone else and take no responsibility for their actions. You can't help but see race in everything and are really the true racists. You complain about Giuliani using death as a political issue while you are using this non incident as political and social issue and an indictment on cops. Only ventriloquists can talk out of both sides of their mouth.

[taxfree4]

Just where is Springfield, Vagina? I can't seem to find it on Google Earth :yikes:

It's not far from Intercourse PA.

[3Chief]

First of all you are required to carry and show ID when asked by an officer.

[

Please show me that statute. As far as I know you're only required to identify yourself when asked. You're not required to carry ID with you at all times, however it's probably the smarter thing to do these days. The more unfortunate truth is that there are a few to many people in law enforcement and society in general that feel they have a right to impose their views upon the rest of us regardless of the law. I don't care what neighborhood you're in or what type of dog you're walking. As long as you're walking that dog and minding your own business nobody from law enforcement should bother you even if it isn't your neighborhood. Far to many busybodies these days that have nothing better to do than harass others and stick their noses where they don't belong.

[taxfree4]

Please show me that statute. As far as I know you're only required to identify yourself when asked. You're not required to carry ID with you at all times, however it's probably the smarter thing to do these days. The more unfortunate truth is that there are a few to many people in law enforcement and society in general that feel they have a right to impose their views upon the rest of us regardless of the law. I don't care what neighborhood you're in or what type of dog you're walking. As long as you're walking that dog and minding your own business nobody from law enforcement should bother you even if it isn't your neighborhood. Far to many busybodies these days that have nothing better to do than harass others and stick their noses where they don't belong.

I said "First of all you are required to carry and show ID when asked by an officer."
He says "As far as I know you're only required to identify yourself when asked."

Can someone from alpha crypto translations tell me the difference in these two statements, anyway:

New York is a "Stop and ID" state which allows exactly that if the police think a crime has/is/about to be committed - translation - "We've had some reports about robberies in the area do you live around here? Can I see some ID." If I had a dollar every time I've heard that so I say "No problem officer here you go." A little run through the NCIC for any outstanding warrants and a "Thank you for your cooperation." That's the price you pay for living in a, as dadeo says, "low crime white neighborhood." and I'm OK with that because my family left the inner city years ago.

Where we came from was right across the street from the Marcy Avenue Projects in Brooklyn, a shithole, where the drug dealer/rapper Jay Z escaped from, 32 Nostrand Ave, google it. When I worked for the phone company that was a 4 man area meaning 1 guy to escort the technician 2 guys to stay in the truck so they don't rob the truck/contents so please spare me your 'minding your own business" bullshit. The assassin who slaughtered the 2 cops was "minding his own business" until he found his target, got into a firing stance and pulled the trigger. The thief/rapist/murderer are "minding their own business" till they see their mark. That may work out in Bumfuck, Illinois but it's not reality. If a little inconvenience is the price I pay for living in a, as dadeo puts it, a "low crime white neighborhood"so be it, NO ONE aspires to work hard, save their $ to move their family into the slums they do it to get the fuck out as fast as they can like my father did. Like Jay Z, OJ and Colin let them all kill themselves but I'm not going back I'm staying right here in my low crime white neighborhood.

Now if that 14 y.o. was stopped on a nightly basis and ID'd you may have an argument but to run around in this schoolgirl hysteria about how horrible, traumatic and devastating it was to this poor little boy, get over it, keep coddling him and you'll wind up with a spoiled, under achieving, attentioned starved, American hating mediocre player who thinks taking a knee is tantamount to doing something. OOPS, that job is taken.

[Retired Army]

While the race card is being played why has there never been a female or American Indian been president? They stand for the National Anthem.

[taxfree4]

While the race card is being played why has there never been a female or American Indian been president? They stand for the National Anthem.

Guaranteed if a Liberal Sioux lesbian ran for office there are some on this board that would drive their Prius as fast as they could to the voting place and run in their Birckenstocks into the booth to pull the lever for her, and that's just the men. And that's OK as we are an inclusive, diverse (I throw up when I hear that) board. We did have a Liberal lesbian lose the last presidential election so it's not that far fetched.

[opas ride]

Ain't American grand!!!...Try to express some of these opinions in North Korea or Russia about how you feel with politics, etc. and it would be the last anyone ever heard from you again!!.....God Bless America.....Regards

[ths61]

Isn't Pocahontas planning a run for POTUS ?

http://www.thepubliceditor.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Elizabeth_Warren_Land_O_Fakes.jpg

[BIGLRY]

run in their Birckenstocks into the booth.
I don't wear them when I go to "the booth" but I do wear them lol.
http://www.californiavtxriders.com/phpBB3/gallery/image5861.jpg

[gregj]

Remember this pic from the good ole VTXOA days. :cheers:

[dadeo]

I don't wear them when I go to "the booth" but I do wear them lol.
http://www.californiavtxriders.com/phpBB3/gallery/image5861.jpg

Oh man that is one fugly pic.

[willtill]

"Princess Moonbat Feathers"

:icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol:


Good one! :icon_wink:

[taxfree4]

I don't wear them when I go to "the booth" but I do wear them lol.
http://www.californiavtxriders.com/phpBB3/gallery/image5861.jpg

Larry,
You're killing me, those sure are Birckenstocks but that sure as hell aint no Prius. BTW what size are those, for curiosity sake? Did they have to chop an extra tree down?

[taxfree4]

Isn't Pocahontas planning a run for POTUS ?

http://www.thepubliceditor.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Elizabeth_Warren_Land_O_Fakes.jpg

Hands down one of the funniest things I've seen in a long time, outside of BIGLRY in Birckenstocks. What do you say to a guy in those sandals who wears a 6X tee shirt? "Nice sandals where did you get them as I'd like a pair myself."

[dadeo]

I can't say which is fuglier, the rider or the bike, with its glowing puke green tank!
:shock:

(turn that GD tank down!)

[Phantom]

Oh man that is one fugly pic.

Larry is one of the most intelligent guys on this forum and happens to be one of our moderators, I'll take Larry on my team any day.
Larry has more ladies chasing him then most will ever know. From what I hear the ladies like the fact that he's 6'8" and everything else apparently is proportionate. :shhh:

[taxfree4]

Larry is one of the most intelligent guys on this forum and happens to be one of our moderators, I'll take Larry on my team any day.
Larry has more ladies chasing him then most will ever know. From what I hear the ladies like the fact that he's 6'8" and everything else apparently is proportionate. :shhh:

Sometimes newbies get too familiar too fast and say things that might be fine for someone who knows him better, rookie mistake.

[Phantom]

I can't say which is fuglier, the rider or the bike, with its glowing puke green tank!
:shock:

(turn that GD tank down!)


That happens to be very similar color to Lamborghini pearl Green ... a gorgeous paint color on 6 figure cars.

That rider happens to be one of our moderators and has more motorcycle knowledge in his pinky then most members on this forum
:jerkit:

You owe Big Larry an apology.

[taxfree4]

That happens to be very similar color to Lamborghini pearl Green ... a gorgeous paint color on 6 figure cars.

That rider happens to be one of our moderators and has more motorcycle knowledge in his pinky then most members on this forum
:jerkit:

You owe Big Larry an apology.

You realize we posted at the exact same time....spooky but you are correct about an apology. You have to watch those guys that live in a low crime white neighborhood they see a large man in Birckenstocks and think right away he doesn't belong in this forum only to find out he lives here.

[3Chief]

I said "First of all you are required to carry and show ID when asked by an officer."
He says "As far as I know you're only required to identify yourself when asked."

Can someone from alpha crypto translations tell me the difference in these two statements, anyway:

New York is a "Stop and ID" state which allows exactly that if the police think a crime has/is/about to be committed - translation - "We've had some reports about robberies in the area do you live around here? Can I see some ID." If I had a dollar every time I've heard that so I say "No problem officer here you go." A little run through the NCIC for any outstanding warrants and a "Thank you for your cooperation." That's the price you pay for living in a, as dadeo says, "low crime white neighborhood." and I'm OK with that because my family left the inner city years ago.


The difference is I'm not required to have ID on me. If a uniformed officer asks me to identify myself and I give him my name but don't have my ID on me he may or may not have an issue with that. He could very well want to follow me home to get my ID to prove who I am, but I'm not required to carry ID with me while walking my dog. Now if I'm doing any number of other things such as driving or hunting etc...I am required to have ID on me.
I'm not from New York so I guess I'd have issues there if they require you carry ID at all times.

[willtill]

The difference is I'm not required to have ID on me. If a uniformed officer asks me to identify myself and I give him my name but don't have my ID on me he may or may not have an issue with that. He could very well want to follow me home to get my ID to prove who I am, but I'm not required to carry ID with me while walking my dog. Now if I'm doing any number of other things such as driving or hunting etc...I am required to have ID on me.
I'm not from New York so I guess I'd have issues there if they require you carry ID at all times.

Yea, I know it sucks but all you are doing is verifying who you are. Not a big deal to me. Other folks make it a big deal. Not sure why. It's stupid to make a Capital case out of it while on the street; a cop has actually plenty of leeway (sometimes unprofessionally) to develop probable cause and detain you. Then your day and/or night gets worse.

Show ID and be polite.

Been there. Done it. On both types of approaches by LEO's....

[3Chief]

Yea, I know it sucks but all you are doing is verifying who you are. Not a big deal to me. Other folks make it a big deal. Not sure why. It's stupid to make a Capital case out of it while on the street; a cop has actually plenty of leeway (sometimes unprofessionally) to develop probable cause and detain you. Then your day and/or night gets worse.

Show ID and be polite.

Been there. Done it. On both types of approaches by LEO's....

I guess I just don't understand living somewhere where you can be accosted by cops for walking and even more trouble for not having ID on you. I know for some it's a daily thing but it's truly not the way this country is suppose to be. I must have too rural of a mind set.

[taxfree4]

The difference is I'm not required to have ID on me. If a uniformed officer asks me to identify myself and I give him my name but don't have my ID on me he may or may not have an issue with that. He could very well want to follow me home to get my ID to prove who I am, but I'm not required to carry ID with me while walking my dog. Now if I'm doing any number of other things such as driving or hunting etc...I am required to have ID on me.
I'm not from New York so I guess I'd have issues there if they require you carry ID at all times.

Again your ignorance is blaring, if you are issued a state ID then you are required to have it on you. A cop doesn't have the time to follow you home (hysterical). You'd better learn who you are and what you are. As a resident (res- meaning property ident- identifying) of the Peoples Republic of Washington State it would be wise to identify the property when the LEO asks you for it. Telling him who you are is heresay and you would lose every time in court after they drag your ass in, rightly so. You are property of the state since your birth, you are walking on the state's property and if an agent of the state, a cop, asks you to identify yourself it would be wise to do it. If you do walk your dog and are asked to produce ID please film it as I want to see the cop walk you home to get it or don't you carry your phone on you either.

[Phantom]

I can't say which is fuglier, the rider or the bike, with its glowing puke green tank!
:shock: (turn that GD tank down!)

The ONLY FUGLY part is your post which exposes your hypocrisy and TRUE colors of discrimination towards someone that doesn't look like you. Your ignorant comment towards a great friend of mine and THOUSANDS of riders in the Honda community from VTX's, Runes and now F6B's is not amusing.


Sometimes newbies get too familiar too fast and say things that might be fine for someone who knows him better, rookie mistake.

Judgemental based on absolutely NO knowledge about the individual or machine. You have to tolerate those Know it alls. .nothing.to.sdd.


You realize we posted at the exact same time....spooky but you are correct about an apology. You have to watch those guys that live in a low crime white neighborhood they see a large man in Birckenstocks and think right away he doesn't belong in this forum only to find out he lives here.

Remove foot from mouth :footinmouth:

[dadeo]

I apologize. Trying too too hard to be funny.

[3Chief]

Again your ignorance is blaring, if you are issued a state ID then you are required to have it on you. A cop doesn't have the time to follow you home (hysterical). You'd better learn who you are and what you are. As a resident (res- meaning property ident- identifying) of the Peoples Republic of Washington State it would be wise to identify the property when the LEO asks you for it. Telling him who you are is heresay and you would lose every time in court after they drag your ass in, rightly so. You are property of the state since your birth, you are walking on the state's property and if an agent of the state, a cop, asks you to identify yourself it would be wise to do it. If you do walk your dog and are asked to produce ID please film it as I want to see the cop walk you home to get it or don't you carry your phone on you either.

I may very well be ignorant of some nuance of the law, but then again if I'm minding my own business and walking my dog in the vicinity of my home the LEO in question would have no probable cause to stop me. In my state at least, to my knowledge. I've done a great many things without having my ID and I've had interactions with LEO's and it's never been an issue. Like others have said be polite, respectful but mostly be honest. If there truly is an issue the LEO in question may very well detain me until my identity can be verified. It's never happened to me, however we know it's happened to many others. Either way my ignorance of the nuances surrounding laws governing whether or not I must carry ID at all times pales in comparison to your arrogance in assuming that the statutes governing those laws are the same from municipality to municipality. And no, it's 50/50 whether or not I'd have my phone on me however it wouldn't matter as I don't have a camera on my phone.

[taxfree4]

I may very well be ignorant of some nuance of the law, but then again if I'm minding my own business and walking my dog in the vicinity of my home the LEO in question would have no probable cause to stop me. In my state at least, to my knowledge. I've done a great many things without having my ID and I've had interactions with LEO's and it's never been an issue. Like others have said be polite, respectful but mostly be honest. If there truly is an issue the LEO in question may very well detain me until my identity can be verified. It's never happened to me, however we know it's happened to many others. Either way my ignorance of the nuances surrounding laws governing whether or not I must carry ID at all times pales in comparison to your arrogance in assuming that the statutes governing those laws are the same from municipality to municipality. And no, it's 50/50 whether or not I'd have my phone on me however it wouldn't matter as I don't have a camera on my phone.

Ignorance of the law is never a defense nor an excuse. How else is the officer going to know if you are in the vicinity of your home if he can't identify where you live? He's going to take your word for it? You answered your own question.

[Retired Army]

Larry is one of the most intelligent guys on this forum and happens to be one of our moderators, I'll take Larry on my team any day.
Larry has more ladies chasing him then most will ever know. From what I hear the ladies like the fact that he's 6'8" and everything else apparently is proportionate. :shhh:

Plus he can lick his eyebrows.

[dadeo]

Ignorance of the law is never a defense nor an excuse. How else is the officer going to know if you are in the vicinity of your home if he can't identify where you live? He's going to take your word for it? You answered your own question.

The bottom line here is that an LEO must have a reasonable reason for bothering you.

Here is what I know, thanks to my Dad who was an attorney for years in crime ridden Syracuse NY. He always told us that we should carry ID when out, but it is not required by law for most situations - - - like if you are just out walking the dog. There are obvious exceptions: buying or carrying alcohol; operating a vehicle on public waterways, lands or roads; hunting and fishing; carrying a gun; voting (recently); etc.

He told us that you SHOULD ALWAYS treat an LEO with respect and COURTESY. He also said that we had to identify ourselves to an LEO when asked. But that we had the right to see the LEO's own badge/ID before showing or telling them our own name and address. This establishes that the person is indeed an LEO (yes, some wackos like to impersonate LEOs ). Security guards should be treated the same as LEOs, despite that in many states they have no right to do more than call an LEO.

He taught that (thanks to the 5th Amendment) we have the right (and maybe even the responsibility) to shut the hell up. This is usually where these situations go wrong, when some idiot thinks it's a good idea to tell the LEO where to go/get off/how to do their job (stupid). Dad's advice was to answer factual questions about what we've seen or doing, but that we have to right to decline to answer questions that are personal, not relevant, or accusatory.

Dad was a WW2 Vet who graduated from Harvard University on the GI bill in 1948. He did three years of law school in less than 2 years. It wasn't until I was in my late teens before I realized how remarkable this was. He was the smartest person I think I have ever meet. His strategy for dealing with LEOs was given to me over 40 years ago, and it has served me quite well in many, many interactions with LEOs. He counciled SU students, faculty and small businesses for 40 years....

So anything that you've got to say on this subject that contradicts my Dad's advice means nothing...

Sorry.

[BIGLRY]

I apologize. Trying too too hard to be funny.
Hehe no problem.
If ya don't like green how about these colors of the same VTX1800?
here it is in illusion blue
http://www.californiavtxriders.com/phpBB3/gallery/image37706.jpg

Black
http://www.californiavtxriders.com/phpBB3/gallery/image6946.jpg?sid=3127f53481b462675bb5b545a90b3696

orange
http://www.californiavtxriders.com/phpBB3/gallery/image7137.jpg?sid=3127f53481b462675bb5b545a90b3696

[willtill]

The bottom line here is that an LEO must have a reasonable reason for bothering you.

Here is what I know, thanks to my Dad who was an attorney for years in crime ridden Syracuse NY. He always told us that we should carry ID when out, but it is not required by law for most situations - - - like if you are just out walking the dog. There are obvious exceptions: buying or carrying alcohol; operating a vehicle on public waterways, lands or roads; hunting and fishing; carrying a gun; voting (recently); etc.

He told us that you SHOULD ALWAYS treat an LEO with respect and COURTESY. He also said that we had to identify ourselves to an LEO when asked. But that we had the right to see the LEO's own badge/ID before showing or telling them our own name and address. This establishes that the person is indeed an LEO (yes, some wackos like to impersonate LEOs ). Security guards should be treated the same as LEOs, despite that in many states they have no right to do more than call an LEO.

He taught that (thanks to the 5th Amendment) we have the right (and maybe even the responsibility) to shut the hell up. This is usually where these situations go wrong, when some idiot thinks it's a good idea to tell the LEO where to go/get off/how to do their job (stupid). Dad's advice was to answer factual questions about what we've seen or doing, but that we have to right to decline to answer questions that are personal, not relevant, or accusatory.

Dad was a WW2 Vet who graduated from Harvard University on the GI bill in 1948. He did three years of law school in less than 2 years. It wasn't until I was in my late teens before I realized how remarkable this was. He was the smartest person I think I have ever meet. His strategy for dealing with LEOs was given to me over 40 years ago, and it has served me quite well in many, many interactions with LEOs. He counciled SU students, faculty and small businesses for 40 years....

So anything that you've got to say on this subject that contradicts my Dad's advice means nothing...

Sorry.

I have no earthly idea what you have been bitching about all along then. What you just posted above; is what most of us are in agreement with.

Go for a ride. Get your knee's in the wind. You need it.

Seriously.

[dadeo]

I have no earthly idea what you have been bitching about all along then. What you just posted above; is what most of us are in agreement with.

Go for a ride. Get your knee's in the wind. You need it.

Seriously.

Happy to see that you don't agree with the poster that claimed that carrying an ID at all times was required by law.

Back on bike subject...
Going for a ride today in the rain on the way home.....

Did you see that the Rockville Honda dealer is "consolidating" at its Crofton store because it's building was sold.
www.hondaofcrofton.com (http://www.hondaofcrofton.com)

Also noticed that both places rate a 3 on Yelp. I am not surprised.

[dadeo]

Hehe no problem.
If ya don't like green how about these colors of the same VTX1800?
here it is in illusion blue
http://www.californiavtxriders.com/phpBB3/gallery/image37706.jpg

Black
http://www.californiavtxriders.com/phpBB3/gallery/image6946.jpg?sid=3127f53481b462675bb5b545a90b3696

orange
http://www.californiavtxriders.com/phpBB3/gallery/image7137.jpg?sid=3127f53481b462675bb5b545a90b3696

Those are cool bikes.
I guess I just don't like that shade of green.

And is that you modeling them? It is a better look for you than the Burkenstocks! But being 55, 220lbs, and only 5'6' I am no one to talk about appearance. I avoid neckties at work and sandals at play!

[willtill]

Happy to see that you don't agree with the poster that claimed that carrying an ID at all times was required by law.

Back on bike subject...
Going for a ride today in the rain on the way home.....

Did you see that the Rockville Honda dealer is "consolidating" at its Crofton store because it's building was sold.
www.hondaofcrofton.com (http://www.hondaofcrofton.com)

Also noticed that both places rate a 3 on Yelp. I am not surprised.

No, I did not :shock: But the rating on Yelp does not surprise me at all.

They are not a favorite dealer of mine... caused damage to a set of Hard Chrome pipes I had them install when I bought my VTX from them back in 2007, and then scratched up one of the wheels pretty good when they changed a tire on the front wheel when I brought it in to them... AND THEN had to bring the wheel back to them to re-balance since they screwed that up as well :icon_rolleyes: Ain't been back since for any service work... now it's professionally done by myself...

And they are one of the "better" dealers here :icon_doh:

[taxfree4]

The bottom line here is that an LEO must have a reasonable reason for bothering you.

Here is what I know, thanks to my Dad who was an attorney for years in crime ridden Syracuse NY. He always told us that we should carry ID when out, but it is not required by law for most situations - - - like if you are just out walking the dog. There are obvious exceptions: buying or carrying alcohol; operating a vehicle on public waterways, lands or roads; hunting and fishing; carrying a gun; voting (recently); etc.

He told us that you SHOULD ALWAYS treat an LEO with respect and COURTESY. He also said that we had to identify ourselves to an LEO when asked. But that we had the right to see the LEO's own badge/ID before showing or telling them our own name and address. This establishes that the person is indeed an LEO (yes, some wackos like to impersonate LEOs ). Security guards should be treated the same as LEOs, despite that in many states they have no right to do more than call an LEO.

He taught that (thanks to the 5th Amendment) we have the right (and maybe even the responsibility) to shut the hell up. This is usually where these situations go wrong, when some idiot thinks it's a good idea to tell the LEO where to go/get off/how to do their job (stupid). Dad's advice was to answer factual questions about what we've seen or doing, but that we have to right to decline to answer questions that are personal, not relevant, or accusatory.

Dad was a WW2 Vet who graduated from Harvard University on the GI bill in 1948. He did three years of law school in less than 2 years. It wasn't until I was in my late teens before I realized how remarkable this was. He was the smartest person I think I have ever meet. His strategy for dealing with LEOs was given to me over 40 years ago, and it has served me quite well in many, many interactions with LEOs. He counciled SU students, faculty and small businesses for 40 years....

So anything that you've got to say on this subject that contradicts my Dad's advice means nothing...

Sorry.

I'll say it again, in Stop and ID states, and NY is, whether you're walking your dog, petting your pussy, picking your nose when an officer asks you for ID and you refuse it is a crime and you will be detained. The caveat is there must be a suspicion of criminal activity so being that in any given area anywhere there are pending robberies, rapes, burglaries etc. with suspects that haven't been caught where the perps may fit your description, there's your suspicion. Now if you open your big mouth as it looks like you're the guy that tells them "I'm not showing you my ID, and BTW I pay your salary". Then combined with your non cooperation, against your father's advice, and further refusal to provide ID that's grounds for taking you in. You see the law is written for them not you and as your father knows we are under Public Policy so that gives the judge tremendous latitude. So if you think not carrying ID is the hill you want to die on, be my guest you will lose every single time and keep a lawyer on retainer. There is no law requiring you to pay an Income Tax or Withholding, and I did it for years hence the username, yet when you refuse the law exists and you are guilty, same here. Millions of people are fined, their pay garnished, imprisoned and property seized for non payment. Do you stand outside the IRS and say I'm not paying because I'm not required?

[willtill]

Uff... just carry friggin ID... enough!

:icon_lol:

[taxfree4]

Uff... just carry friggin ID... enough!

:icon_lol:

Did you put those TBR's on

[taxfree4]

Hehe no problem.
If ya don't like green how about these colors of the same VTX1800?
here it is in illusion blue
http://www.californiavtxriders.com/phpBB3/gallery/image37706.jpg

Black
http://www.californiavtxriders.com/phpBB3/gallery/image6946.jpg?sid=3127f53481b462675bb5b545a90b3696

orange
http://www.californiavtxriders.com/phpBB3/gallery/image7137.jpg?sid=3127f53481b462675bb5b545a90b3696


Larry if you still have one of those hanging around this is right up your alley even though it says for Harleys 84-99 and Customs a guy with your talent can make it happen and just so I don't steal the thread 'THE NFL SUCKS"



https://imgur.com/O4FPBDF

[willtill]

Did you put those TBR's on

No.. I didn't Mike. And I didn't do the Helibars either even though I ordered them. Still an option though. Because...

I have discerned recently that I have not (well I discovered this a long time ago) that my physical preparation for a long ride was not up to par... and trying to compensate for my aches and pains with supplemental upgrades into the required areas of motorcycle controls/comfort may/could not be needed.

My middle back/shoulder pain all this year from the past Rally that I was suffering from is now almost gone, from more time in the saddle since then :icon_cool:

I have digressed from your original question though... sorry my thoughts and fingers are flying right now on the keyboard... I did not install TBR's as of yet... I REALLY do not want to cut my head pipes. I had posted that before.... not like I could not do it successfully... I still need to ride a bike with TBR's and did not have the opportunity to do so during the last Rally...the weather sort of sucked but we had a good time anyway... just want to make sure that dropping $650.00+ for the TBR's doesn't hurt me (severe tinnitus) any more than I endure now.

Still an option for me. Never say never... :shhh:

I do sincerely... expect things are on the up and up for you and the one you love. Glad to have you here posting Mike. You're a great contributor to this forum and I hope we can all meet you some day at one of the Rally's... :yes:

[taxfree4]

No.. I didn't Mike. And I didn't do the Helibars either even though I ordered them. Still an option though. Because...

I have discerned recently that I have not (well I discovered this a long time ago) that my physical preparation for a long ride was not up to par... and trying to compensate for my aches and pains with supplemental upgrades into the required areas of motorcycle controls/comfort may/could not be needed.

My middle back/shoulder pain all this year from the past Rally that I was suffering from is now almost gone, from more time in the saddle since then :icon_cool:

I have digressed from your original question though... sorry my thoughts and fingers are flying right now on the keyboard... I did not install TBR's as of yet... I REALLY do not want to cut my head pipes. I had posted that before.... not like I could not do it successfully... I still need to ride a bike with TBR's and did not have the opportunity to do so during the last Rally...the weather sort of sucked but we had a good time anyway... just want to make sure that dropping $650.00+ for the TBR's doesn't hurt me (severe tinnitus) any more than I endure now.

Still an option for me. Never say never... :shhh:

I do sincerely... expect things are on the up and up for you and the one you love. Glad to have you here posting Mike. You're a great contributor to this forum and I hope we can all meet you some day at one of the Rally's... :yes:

You're very kind, well since my price on the "B" wasn't met, and $ is not the issue, it's staying right here. And yes things are looking better, slow process, thank you for asking. Listen if the weather holds up and there are a couple of days open with no rain, snow or sleet I would have no problem grabbing a Motel 6 near you so you can ride this thing like a rented mule and it'll give you a chance to sample the Helibars with the TBR's. It'll give me a little rest too.

[willtill]

You're very kind, well since my price on the "B" wasn't met, and $ is not the issue, it's staying right here. And yes things are looking better, slow process, thank you for asking. Listen if the weather holds up and there are a couple of days open with no rain, snow or sleet I would have no problem grabbing a Motel 6 near you so you can ride this thing like a rented mule and it'll give you a chance to sample the Helibars with the TBR's. It'll give me a little rest too.

GOOD that you are keeping the BIKE :yes:

Very happy for you!

Give my (our) best to your's... and

... no need to stay at a Motel 6... I'll just put you in the shed out back.. there's electric and a beer fridge to boot. You'll be fine and we will check on you...

J/K :icon_wink:

We'll stay in touch.. and more importantly... see if you can make Colorado; mebbee long shot for us here on the right coast; but if not...Cherokee, N.C. just down south later... :icon_cool:

[taxfree4]

GOOD that you are keeping the BIKE :yes:

Very happy for you!

Give my (our) best to your's... and

... no need to stay at a Motel 6... I'll just put you in the shed out back.. there's electric and a beer fridge to boot. You'll be fine and we will check on you...

J/K :icon_wink:

We'll stay in touch.. and more importantly... see if you can make Colorado; mebbee long shot for us here on the right coast; but if not...Cherokee, N.C. just down south later... :icon_cool:

Just let me know, I have family in Delaware I can stop by on the way back and say hi to. If everything progresses as it should Co. or NC will be be definitely possible. "The NFL sucks" (No hijack)

[3Chief]

Ignorance of the law is never a defense nor an excuse. How else is the officer going to know if you are in the vicinity of your home if he can't identify where you live? He's going to take your word for it? You answered your own question.

And again as I asked originally please show me the statute that says I must carry ID on me at all times. My quick research into subject pretty much says the same thing as Dadeo here:


The bottom line here is that an LEO must have a reasonable reason for bothering you.

Here is what I know, thanks to my Dad who was an attorney for years in crime ridden Syracuse NY. He always told us that we should carry ID when out, but it is not required by law for most situations - - - like if you are just out walking the dog. There are obvious exceptions: buying or carrying alcohol; operating a vehicle on public waterways, lands or roads; hunting and fishing; carrying a gun; voting (recently); etc.

He told us that you SHOULD ALWAYS treat an LEO with respect and COURTESY. He also said that we had to identify ourselves to an LEO when asked. But that we had the right to see the LEO's own badge/ID before showing or telling them our own name and address. This establishes that the person is indeed an LEO (yes, some wackos like to impersonate LEOs ). Security guards should be treated the same as LEOs, despite that in many states they have no right to do more than call an LEO.



A quick search said basically the same in Washington State and even went further to say specifically you do not have to carry ID on you at all times and if you were stopped by a uniformed LEO stating your name, DOB and address covered most interactions. Where it did get out in the weeds for me was being able to refuse to answer until such time has you are being charged with a civil infraction. Your local area may very well have a more stringent ordinance on ID's but by and large it appears most states do not require a person to carry ID when they are not doing something that would require it such as buying or carrying alcohol, operating a vehicle on public waterways, lands or roads; hunting and fishing and carrying a gun. Those are the most common ones although I am sure there are others. I have a co-worker who is a former LEO that I have not gotten to speak with on the subject yet to get his take on the matter. I am more curious than concerned, however conversations with him about these types of matters have always been interesting.

[Walcrow]

You're very kind, well since my price on the "B" wasn't met, and $ is not the issue, it's staying right here. And yes things are looking better, slow process, thank you for asking. Listen if the weather holds up and there are a couple of days open with no rain, snow or sleet I would have no problem grabbing a Motel 6 near you so you can ride this thing like a rented mule and it'll give you a chance to sample the Helibars with the TBR's. It'll give me a little rest too.

Great news on all fronts, Mike. Good to know you're keeping the Black Beast and that other issues are getting better. Hope to see you in Colorado. It'll be here sooner than later.............my RDL and the TBR's are like a good bottle of Caymus....they get better with more time and miles :yes:

The Crow

[dadeo]

I'll say it again, in Stop and ID states, and NY is, whether you're walking your dog, petting your pussy, picking your nose when an officer asks you for ID and you refuse it is a crime and you will be detained. The caveat is there must be a suspicion of criminal activity so being that in any given area anywhere there are pending robberies, rapes, burglaries etc. with suspects that haven't been caught where the perps may fit your description, there's your suspicion. Now if you open your big mouth as it looks like you're the guy that tells them "I'm not showing you my ID, and BTW I pay your salary". Then combined with your non cooperation, against your father's advice, and further refusal to provide ID that's grounds for taking you in. You see the law is written for them not you and as your father knows we are under Public Policy so that gives the judge tremendous latitude. So if you think not carrying ID is the hill you want to die on, be my guest you will lose every single time and keep a lawyer on retainer. There is no law requiring you to pay an Income Tax or Withholding, and I did it for years hence the username, yet when you refuse the law exists and you are guilty, same here. Millions of people are fined, their pay garnished, imprisoned and property seized for non payment. Do you stand outside the IRS and say I'm not paying because I'm not required?

You are right that a few states / localities have passed laws requiring the production of an ID on demand. BUT no such law as withstood a review all the way to Supremes... NY's came closes with stop and frisk, but I believe Rudy (or successor) dropped the case at the state level Appeal Ct level ( his attorneys told him they'd lose). I think we agree that anyone who give a copper a hard time is probably going to need someone like my Dad! But, someone who is cooperative is not likely to need one, if he self identifies and doesn't seem suspicious. Moreso, I agree that the only way you are going to successfully defend your right to walk that dog without ID (assuming a copper wants to push it) is to get someone like my Dad to defend you after the fact. That or the ACLU perhaps. On the other hand,, the locality paying that cop may hand out a large settlement -- depending on how far the copper and the dog walker take the issue...... Seen that too.

On taxes... Unfortunately, Congress did pass a law authorizing the income tax and there was a constitutional amendment back in the early part of the 20th Century making such a tax constitutional, although I don't believe the words "income tax" are in the text of the amendment. Btw, I F-ing hate the current income tax, and I don't like how much Congress delegated to the IRS via those laws: a whole lot of powers were given to the IRS to enact unending regulations to collect. However unfortunately, the courts have held that those regulations do have the force of law. So you can't say those regulations are not law. They "suck", but they are law.

We have a mixed system of legislated, regulatory and common law that dates back to the English. The "law" is not only what the legislature at the state or federal level passed, but it is also all the regulations that executive agencies write (as a result of what the legislature passed), AND all the opinions that courts have made about both. It would be more accurate if you'd said that the specific laws that Congress passed do not mention withholding specifically. However, the IRS issued regulations that ARE based on what Congress passed and the courts have upheld the IRS saying that withholding is one of several acceptable methods (and are mentioned in the regs) to make those payments. So withholding is in fact, "law" in good ol USA. BTW, it sounds like you know that if you fail to pay enough each quarter you will accrue interest and penalties, under the law. Something I am also familiar with. (groan)...

[3Chief]

You are right that a few states / localities have passed laws requiring the production of an ID on demand. BUT no such law as withstood a review all the way to Supremes... NY's came closes with stop and frisk, but I believe Rudy (or successor) dropped the case at the state level Appeal Ct level ( his attorneys told him they'd lose). I think we agree that anyone who give a copper a hard time is probably going to need someone like my Dad! But, someone who is cooperative is not likely to need one, if he self identifies and doesn't seem suspicious. Moreso, I agree that the only way you are going to successfully defend your right to walk that dog without ID (assuming a copper wants to push it) is to get someone like my Dad to defend you after the fact. That or the ACLU perhaps. On the other hand,, the locality paying that cop may hand out a large settlement -- depending on how far the copper and the dog walker take the issue...... Seen that too.

On taxes... Unfortunately, Congress did pass a law authorizing the income tax and there was a constitutional amendment back in the early part of the 20th Century making such a tax constitutional, although I don't believe the words "income tax" are in the text of the amendment. Btw, I F-ing hate the current income tax, and I don't like how much Congress delegated to the IRS via those laws: a whole lot of powers were given to the IRS to enact unending regulations to collect. However unfortunately, the courts have held that those regulations do have the force of law. So you can't say those regulations are not law. They "suck", but they are law.

We have a mixed system of legislated, regulatory and common law that dates back to the English. The "law" is not only what the legislature at the state or federal level passed, but it is also all the regulations that executive agencies write (as a result of what the legislature passed), AND all the opinions that courts have made about both. It would be more accurate if you'd said that the specific laws that Congress passed do not mention withholding specifically. However, the IRS issued regulations that ARE based on what Congress passed and the courts have upheld the IRS saying that withholding is one of several acceptable methods (and are mentioned in the regs) to make those payments. So withholding is in fact, "law" in good ol USA. BTW, it sounds like you know that if you fail to pay enough each quarter you will accrue interest and penalties, under the law. Something I am also familiar with. (groan)...

Actually if I remember correctly Taxfree4 is a very astute individual when it comes to the legalese of taxes and found a way out of a large percentage of what most of us consider normal taxes. There was a prior post quite awhile back on the subject. I cannot remember who was the other major contributor on that thread but very interesting reading.

[dadeo]

Actually if I remember correctly Taxfree4 is a very astute individual when it comes to the legalese of taxes and found a way out of a large percentage of what most of us consider normal taxes. There was a prior post quite awhile back on the subject. I cannot remember who was the other major contributor on that thread but very interesting reading.

I think I agree with Taxfree4's attitude on taxes: pay as little as is legal. If he's got a legit/legal strategies to cut what I pay Uncle S., I'd love to get hear it.

It's been several years since my Dad passed. One of the many things I miss about having him around, was his business and tax advice. I remember him telling me that one principle of tax law was that you should take advantage of every legal way to reduce the amount you paid. He'd say the laws were there to be taken advantage of. As long as one obeyed the law you can take that deduction, credit or shelter. He used to also say that the cost of living in a civilization was taxes, but that nobody should pay more than what they were legally required. What I find so distressing is that the system is now so complex and unfair, that I, with a graduate degree in state and local governmental finance, need a friggin accountant to ensure that I pay as little as possible, without violating the law. It is insane. And I don't like high local property taxes much either. Especially high school district property taxes in upstate New York state make me nuts. But that is a whole other discussion...!

[taxfree4]

Great news on all fronts, Mike. Good to know you're keeping the Black Beast and that other issues are getting better. Hope to see you in Colorado. It'll be here sooner than later.............my RDL and the TBR's are like a good bottle of Caymus....they get better with more time and miles :yes:

The Crow

I'm keeping it, for now, because like Sy Syms used to say "An educated consumer is our best customer." When you have in the ad that there is absolutely no wiggle room on the price and countless people email you with "Are you flexible on the price" you throw up your hands and shake your head. Anyway, even though I have very limited time on it they are a great time indeed. I'd love to make Colorado and I'll bring my ID just so you know it's me.

[taxfree4]

You are right that a few states / localities have passed laws requiring the production of an ID on demand. BUT no such law as withstood a review all the way to Supremes... NY's came closes with stop and frisk, but I believe Rudy (or successor) dropped the case at the state level Appeal Ct level ( his attorneys told him they'd lose). I think we agree that anyone who give a copper a hard time is probably going to need someone like my Dad! But, someone who is cooperative is not likely to need one, if he self identifies and doesn't seem suspicious. Moreso, I agree that the only way you are going to successfully defend your right to walk that dog without ID (assuming a copper wants to push it) is to get someone like my Dad to defend you after the fact. That or the ACLU perhaps. On the other hand,, the locality paying that cop may hand out a large settlement -- depending on how far the copper and the dog walker take the issue...... Seen that too.

On taxes... Unfortunately, Congress did pass a law authorizing the income tax and there was a constitutional amendment back in the early part of the 20th Century making such a tax constitutional, although I don't believe the words "income tax" are in the text of the amendment. Btw, I F-ing hate the current income tax, and I don't like how much Congress delegated to the IRS via those laws: a whole lot of powers were given to the IRS to enact unending regulations to collect. However unfortunately, the courts have held that those regulations do have the force of law. So you can't say those regulations are not law. They "suck", but they are law.

We have a mixed system of legislated, regulatory and common law that dates back to the English. The "law" is not only what the legislature at the state or federal level passed, but it is also all the regulations that executive agencies write (as a result of what the legislature passed), AND all the opinions that courts have made about both. It would be more accurate if you'd said that the specific laws that Congress passed do not mention withholding specifically. However, the IRS issued regulations that ARE based on what Congress passed and the courts have upheld the IRS saying that withholding is one of several acceptable methods (and are mentioned in the regs) to make those payments. So withholding is in fact, "law" in good ol USA. BTW, it sounds like you know that if you fail to pay enough each quarter you will accrue interest and penalties, under the law. Something I am also familiar with. (groan)...

Congress passed an enabling statute "Section 8. Clause 1. The Congress shall have Power to lay and collect Taxes" but never passed a law to actually impose the tax and make anyone "liable" in conjunction with that statute to pay it. "The NFL Sucks" It is implied law, same as the ID, if you don't comply it exists because the law lives and breathes on the "gray area". "The NFL Sucks" I was a court watcher meaning a group of us would go into various courts and sit there literally all day sometimes and develop strategies to combat the tyrannical stranglehold the corrupt "Justice (Just us) system" has on the public. I clocked $3000 in fines per hour just in one court, 4 minutes was the average time for a case to be heard. This is where Public Policy comes in (gray area), there are no "constitutional rights" in the courtroom and I have been in the court when a judge says "If you mention your constitutional rights one more time in my courtroom I will hold you in contempt." "The NFL Sucks" The law doesn't matter, your rights don't matter it's the rules that matter and whoever has the better paperwork regarding the rules wins. "The NFL Sucks" The IRS is a private trust based in Puerto Rico, the Internal Revenue imposes the tax the Internal revenue SERVICE collects the tax. They are the collectors for the Federal Reserve as all the debt notes you carry around in your pocket is borrowed by Congress. "The NFL Sucks". N.Y. Crim. Proc. Law §140.50 para. 1 triggers para. 4

[willtill]

Mike definitely has it figured out... when he first came to the forum we had an EXTREMELY long and informative discussion with him about it. Search for some of his earliest posts and you will find how he figured out to avoid paying income tax. It's absolutely brilliant. :shhh: "The NFL sucks"

[taxfree4]

Mike definitely has it figured out... when he first came to the forum we had an EXTREMELY long and informative discussion with him about it. Search for some of his earliest posts and you will find how he figured out to avoid paying income tax. It's absolutely brilliant. :shhh: "The NFL sucks"

I don't recommend it for anyone unless you know court procedure, are willing to go before the IRS and court and articulate the specifics of your case. The volumes of paperwork required is beyond what you could imagine because once you submit your first "zero return" and exempt withholding forms the shit hits the fan. The NFL Sucks. It is so much easier to pay, however, being a thick-headed curious prick and loving a challenge I decided to fight the fight. The NFL Sucks. Even with the law, the facts and the paperwork on my side it did not stop them from garnishing my pay - for one cycle as I had it released with a phone call and a fax. The NFL Sucks. But there is nothing like going into an IRS meeting in front of an agent, opening the Internal Revenue Code and saying "Show me where in the Code does it make me 'liable' for an income tax" and they can't, then the mumbling starts and eventually they get up and walk out of the meeting. The NFL sucks. When you become the aggressor and leave them speechless to the point where they leave you have a sense of satisfaction for all the people they scared the shit out of, garnished their wages, ruined their lives. The NFL Sucks. I begged them to audit me, they wouldn't because I'd be in and out of an audit in less than 5 minutes and give them nothing. The NFL sucks. How could a private trust based in Puerto Rico seize, without a court order in direct violation of the 4th Amendment, bank accounts, wages, etc. Don't get me started. The NFL Sucks

[dadeo]

I don't recommend it for anyone unless you know court procedure, are willing to go before the IRS and court and articulate the specifics of your case. The volumes of paperwork required is beyond what you could imagine because once you submit your first "zero return" and exempt withholding forms the shit hits the fan. The NFL Sucks. It is so much easier to pay, however, being a thick-headed curious prick and loving a challenge I decided to fight the fight. The NFL Sucks. Even with the law, the facts and the paperwork on my side it did not stop them from garnishing my pay - for one cycle as I had it released with a phone call and a fax. The NFL Sucks. But there is nothing like going into an IRS meeting in front of an agent, opening the Internal Revenue Code and saying "Show me where in the Code does it make me 'liable' for an income tax" and they can't, then the mumbling starts and eventually they get up and walk out of the meeting. The NFL sucks. When you become the aggressor and leave them speechless to the point where they leave you have a sense of satisfaction for all the people they scared the shit out of, garnished their wages, ruined their lives. The NFL Sucks. I begged them to audit me, they wouldn't because I'd be in and out of an audit in less than 5 minutes and give them nothing. The NFL sucks. How could a private trust based in Puerto Rico seize, without a court order in direct violation of the 4th Amendment, bank accounts, wages, etc. Don't get me started. The NFL Sucks

I don't understand.... are you saying the IRS is a private trust based in PR? Or that you were the PR trust or representing/acting for the trust? I ask cause I happen to know lots of IT folks who work for IRS (IT)... One's a big-wig IT guy... whose never mentioned PR.

The IRS is fubar. I think it's because Congress passed a ton of bad law. But the courts haven't helped because those who win in courts are those who can spend lots of cash hiring better lawyers and spending huge amounts of cash on a case. Congress won't fix it by passing better law, because they are bought and paid for too. Instead they and successive presidents seem to add more to clutter up the tax code each year, by giving more more deductions, credits and favors each year. When it gets so bad, about once a generation, we engage in a half hearted effort to reform and simplify. We did this in the 1980s under Reagan and under Kennedy in the early 1960s. And some think we are doing this now. But these efforts never go far enough, and the fat cats never go away, and are always looking for the next tax gimmick.

I especially agree the courts have the power to determine what your constitutional rights are... That's one of their powers in our system. Complaining that you don't have any rights in a courtroom, is pointless since it's the court that interprets and decides what the constitution and all those written laws, regulations and court precedent means for any one case (meaning your case), one at a time. Besides, is there a good alternative to having the courts do this? It's kind of fundamental to the three branches system we've got.

Bottom line this for me: Were you successful in your dealings with the IRS? Success to me means that they stopped coming after you for the amounts they claimed you owed.

And the NFL sucks! I prefer college football. The cheerleaders are better looking! The game is faster and the tickets are cheaper! Of course it's just as dangerous and corrupt, but it's still more fund than the NFL. I am sure that part of my preference for college ball comes from growing up in a city with a big time school and no NFL teams within a 3 hour drive.

[taxfree4]

I don't understand.... are you saying the IRS is a private trust based in PR? Or that you were the PR trust or representing/acting for the trust? I ask cause I happen to know lots of IT folks who work for IRS (IT)... One's a big-wig IT guy... whose never mentioned PR.

The IRS is fubar. I think it's because Congress passed a ton of bad law. But the courts haven't helped because those who win in courts are those who can spend lots of cash hiring better lawyers and spending huge amounts of cash on a case. Congress won't fix it by passing better law, because they are bought and paid for too. Instead they and successive presidents seem to add more to clutter up the tax code each year, by giving more more deductions, credits and favors each year. When it gets so bad, about once a generation, we engage in a half hearted effort to reform and simplify. We did this in the 1980s under Reagan and under Kennedy in the early 1960s. And some think we are doing this now. But these efforts never go far enough, and the fat cats never go away, and are always looking for the next tax gimmick.

I especially agree the courts have the power to determine what your constitutional rights are... That's one of their powers in our system. Complaining that you don't have any rights in a courtroom, is pointless since it's the court that interprets and decides what the constitution and all those written laws, regulations and court precedent means for any one case (meaning your case), one at a time. Besides, is there a good alternative to having the courts do this? It's kind of fundamental to the three branches system we've got.

Bottom line this for me: Were you successful in your dealings with the IRS? Success to me means that they stopped coming after you for the amounts they claimed you owed.

And the NFL sucks! I prefer college football. The cheerleaders are better looking! The game is faster and the tickets are cheaper! Of course it's just as dangerous and corrupt, but it's still more fund than the NFL. I am sure that part of my preference for college ball comes from growing up in a city with a big time school and no NFL teams within a 3 hour drive.

The IRS is a private trust based out of Puerto Rico, of course your IT guy never heard of PR because all info at the IRS is sectionalized, an inverted pyramid with most of the knowledge at the top which rapidly descends as you go to the lower ranks. This is why the NFL sucks https://squawker.org/culture-wars/breaking-oakland-raiders-throw-game-after-quarterback-derek-carr-stands-for-national-anthem/. Of course I was successful and success is defined as they left me alone after US Tax Court and Federal District Court. The Honorable Carol Amon, now the Chief Justice of the Eastern District, told the IRS''s lawyers that if what I presented was true, I won the case. Well you should have seen the panic in the room. 5 IRS lawyers had a verbal colonoscopy. A last minute maneuver had the case dismissed without prejudice which was fine with me. Basically, if they ever broke my balls again I would recharge the case, never heard a peep again. What I underlined, italicised and put in bold letters above of your words is a perfect description of Public Policy as Blacks Law describes it. i have been in a courtroom where the same ordinance applied in one case and the exact ordinance was considered not applicable in another exact case and the reason - better paperwork via the rules.

[Walcrow]

Here's a bit of reading for you...................

http://mystrangemind.com/2006/08/irs-exposed-irs-is-privately-owned.html

[taxfree4]

Here's a bit of reading for you...................

http://mystrangemind.com/2006/08/irs-exposed-irs-is-privately-owned.html

Give that man a beer. This is why the NFL sucks
http://www.raidersbeat.com/radio-host-raiders-offensive-line-tanked-in-response-to-derek-carr-standing-for-the-national-anthem/

[dadeo]

What the heck are you talking about? I just looked up the Department of The Treasury Organizational Orders concerning revenue collections. While I don't see anything about Puerto Rico, it does say the IRS is part of the US Department of the Treasury. DOO was last rewritten in 1982 under President Reagan's Treasury Secretary (Regan) and edited a couple of years ago. See: https://www.treasury.gov/about/role-of-treasury/orders-directives/Pages/to150-10.aspx

You can believe what you want, but I am playing it safe and mailing out the check for $245.00 that the IRS office located in Kansas City Mo says I owe because I under paid my estimated taxes for this year. I may hate the IRS, but I know they can kick my butt around....

Been hunting around the Internet regarding what say you about PR and Puerto Rico. Seems as if people started confusing some activity concerning the US setting up some dumb office in PR in the early 1950s when AT THE SAME TIME, Treasury also changed the name of the Bureau of Internal Revenue to the IRS. A little hunting around proved to me that your claim below is nothing more than just a theory posted by some who don't like the IRS.

Oh, and agencies don't have to always get a law passed to change their name, or even to get established. The Department of Commerce changed the name of the Bureau of Export Administration to The Bureau of Industry and Security some years ago with a Departmental Organization Order. The only folks on the Hill that gave a damn were the folks providing the money on the Appropriations Committee. And they cared only in that nobody in Commerce told them beforehand. It pissed them off. The next fiscal year's appropriation bill made it illegal for Commerce to change the name of any Commerce agency without giving Appropriations a 15 day advance warning before. The only thing less meaningful than that name change is your claim below about where the IRS is supposedly located. It doesn't matter and doesn't even seem to be true. Although I did get a good chuckle out of it! (Thanks, this site is all sorts of entertaining).

Not sure why the IRS didn't come after you and your money, but I doubt it had anything about how the agency was authorized. The IRS doesn't care how it was authorized when it comes after someone. The IRS is a fact on the ground, (a painful one though). It's a bit like that 75 year old oak tree in my backyard. I have no idea whether a squirrel dropped a nut to start it, or if some moron planted it. Either way, it drops painful acorns every fall on my deck. Uunlike the IRS, I may be able to actually get rid of the stupid tree.:icon_razz:



The IRS is a private trust based out of Puerto Rico, of course your IT guy never heard of PR because all info at the IRS is sectionalized, an inverted pyramid with most of the knowledge at the top which rapidly descends as you go to the lower ranks. This is why the NFL sucks https://squawker.org/culture-wars/breaking-oakland-raiders-throw-game-after-quarterback-derek-carr-stands-for-national-anthem/. Of course I was successful and success is defined as they left me alone after US Tax Court and Federal District Court. The Honorable Carol Amon, now the Chief Justice of the Eastern District, told the IRS''s lawyers that if what I presented was true, I won the case. Well you should have seen the panic in the room. 5 IRS lawyers had a verbal colonoscopy. A last minute maneuver had the case dismissed without prejudice which was fine with me. Basically, if they ever broke my balls again I would recharge the case, never heard a peep again. What I underlined, italicised and put in bold letters above of your words is a perfect description of Public Policy as Blacks Law describes it. i have been in a courtroom where the same ordinance applied in one case and the exact ordinance was considered not applicable in another exact case and the reason - better paperwork via the rules.

[taxfree4]

What the heck are you talking about? I just looked up the Department of The Treasury Organizational Orders concerning revenue collections. While I don't see anything about Puerto Rico, it does say the IRS is part of the US Department of the Treasury. DOO was last rewritten in 1982 under President Reagan's Treasury Secretary (Regan) and edited a couple of years ago. See: https://www.treasury.gov/about/role-of-treasury/orders-directives/Pages/to150-10.aspx

You can believe what you want, but I am playing it safe and mailing out the check for $245.00 that the IRS office located in Kansas City Mo says I owe because I under paid my estimated taxes for this year. I may hate the IRS, but I know they can kick my butt around....

Been hunting around the Internet regarding what say you about PR and Puerto Rico. Seems as if people started confusing some activity concerning the US setting up some dumb office in PR in the early 1950s when AT THE SAME TIME, Treasury also changed the name of the Bureau of Internal Revenue to the IRS. A little hunting around proved to me that your claim below is nothing more than just a theory posted by some who don't like the IRS.

Oh, and agencies don't have to always get a law passed to change their name, or even to get established. The Department of Commerce changed the name of the Bureau of Export Administration to The Bureau of Industry and Security some years ago with a Departmental Organization Order. The only folks on the Hill that gave a damn were the folks providing the money on the Appropriations Committee. And they cared only in that nobody in Commerce told them beforehand. It pissed them off. The next fiscal year's appropriation bill made it illegal for Commerce to change the name of any Commerce agency without giving Appropriations a 15 day advance warning before. The only thing less meaningful than that name change is your claim below about where the IRS is supposedly located. It doesn't matter and doesn't even seem to be true. Although I did get a good chuckle out of it! (Thanks, this site is all sorts of entertaining).

Not sure why the IRS didn't come after you and your money, but I doubt it had anything about how the agency was authorized. The IRS doesn't care how it was authorized when it comes after someone. The IRS is a fact on the ground, (a painful one though). It's a bit like that 75 year old oak tree in my backyard. I have no idea whether a squirrel dropped a nut to start it, or if some moron planted it. Either way, it drops painful acorns every fall on my deck. Uunlike the IRS, I may be able to actually get rid of the stupid tree.:icon_razz:

So what he found on the internet is wrong but what you found on the internet is right, I've done this too many years with too much research under my belt to even entertain an argument. You have no idea what you're saying even though you found all the answers on the internet and we know everything on the internet is true. It's Cognitive Dissonance, I've seen it over and over again you only believe what you're told and can't imagine it ever being a lie. So mail your check in like a good taxpayer. Tax lawyers, rat bastards that they are, wouldn't have a profession if it wasn't for this farce and they'd actually have to go out and get a real job. BTW, Lawyers are the only profession condemned in the bible...twice. There mere fact you said that you don't know why the agency didn't come after me doubting it had anything to do about how the agency was authorized tells me you are clueless on this subject as it has EVERYTHING to do with whether they are authorized. The IRS is a trust out of PR, even though you don't believe it, and that fact was known before the internet existed but you would have to actually have been in the movement to know it, stop Google searching to find your answers it's not impressive. Do you think when you look up Chase Bank they'll tell you that all banks are chartered in the City of London? Wake up. The The NFL Sucks

[dadeo]

So what he found on the internet is wrong but what you found on the internet is right, I've done this too many years with too much research under my belt to even entertain an argument. You have no idea what you're saying even though you found all the answers on the internet and we know everything on the internet is true. It's Cognitive Dissonance, I've seen it over and over again you only believe what you're told and can't imagine it ever being a lie. So mail your check in like a good taxpayer. Tax lawyers, rat bastards that they are, wouldn't have a profession if it wasn't for this farce and they'd actually have to go out and get a real job. BTW, Lawyers are the only profession condemned in the bible...twice. There mere fact you said that you don't know why the agency didn't come after me doubting it had anything to do about how the agency was authorized tells me you are clueless on this subject as it has EVERYTHING to do with whether they are authorized. The IRS is a trust out of PR, even though you don't believe it, and that fact was known before the internet existed but you would have to actually have been in the movement to know it, stop Google searching to find your answers it's not impressive. Do you think when you look up Chase Bank they'll tell you that all banks are chartered in the City of London? Wake up. The The NFL Sucks

Okay. Let's just say that we disagree and leave it at that.

[taxfree4]

Okay. Let's just say that we disagree and leave it at that.

Disagreeing would infer that we would have equal knowledge on the subject and we came to an agreement that we don't see eye to eye,however, that's not what happened. Let's just say my johnson is bigger on this subject and leave it at that.

[Walcrow]

MIKE JOHNSON...............I can live with that....................or maybe.........MIKE "THE" JOHNSON:crackup:

[taxfree4]

MIKE JOHNSON...............I can live with that....................or maybe.........MIKE "THE" JOHNSON:crackup:

Or Fred Garvin


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NqEHtZHlsf0

[dadeo]

Disagreeing would infer that we would have equal knowledge on the subject and we came to an agreement that we don't see eye to eye,however, that's not what happened. Let's just say my johnson is bigger on this subject and leave it at that.

Whatever.

[taxfree4]

Whatever.

"Whatever" is not allowed to be used in any dialog in this forum, as per the user agreement, look under the paragraph "Heterosexual responses"

[Phantom]

Whatever.


"Whatever" is not allowed to be used in any dialog in this forum, as per the user agreement, look under the paragraph "Heterosexual responses"

STAY on point and don't deviate .... :banghead: NFL SUCKS

[taxfree4]

Soldier Field Bears/Packers 30 minutes before kickoff. Actually kneeling will help them scrubbing those mag wheels at the car wash when this master plan by these geniuses goes tits up and they're out of a job.

http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q415/taxfree4/DOcuFV7W0AAx4p0_zps2x24xwts.jpg

[Walcrow]

Mike..........

Image blocked by those greedy Photobucket bastards..................

[taxfree4]

Mike..........

Image blocked by those greedy Photobucket bastards..................

Thanks for theads up crow, I'm on it, try this.

https://twitter.com/KyleNabors/status/929762537327005701/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thegatewaypundit.com%2F20 17%2F11%2Fhey-nfl-bears-packers-game-half-empty-soldier-field-aint-good-folks%2F

[ths61]

Thanks for theads up crow, I'm on it, try this.

https://twitter.com/KyleNabors/status/929762537327005701/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thegatewaypundit.com%2F20 17%2F11%2Fhey-nfl-bears-packers-game-half-empty-soldier-field-aint-good-folks%2F

That one works. Sooner or later their will be more people on the field than the in the seating areas.

[taxfree4]

That one works. Sooner or later their will be more people on the field than the in the seating areas.

Most of these idiots were promoted academically w/o ever having to actually prove they knew the work so I'm thinking of other professions where they would be qualified:

Walmart greeter
Shopping cart corral technician
Clam shucker
Car wash wiper down guy
In uniform they could mic them and you can yell food orders into their heads at the drive-thru

I've hit the wall

[Ewreck]

Most of these idiots were promoted academically w/o ever having to actually prove they knew the work so I'm thinking of other professions where they would be qualified:

Walmart greeter
Shopping cart corral technician
Clam shucker
Car wash wiper down guy
In uniform they could mic them and you can yell food orders into their heads at the drive-thru

I've hit the wall

Clam shucking is a pretty high bar. Maybe Clam chucking.

[ths61]

Week 10 results.

week-10-thousands-empty-seats-still-plague-nfl-stadiums (http://www.breitbart.com/sports/2017/11/12/week-10-thousands-empty-seats-still-plague-nfl-stadiums/)

Why encourage this behavior ?

https://media.gq.com/photos/5a0621ab03714b6ea9a92077/master/w_800/gq-moty-cover-kaepernick.jpg

[taxfree4]

Clam shucking is a pretty high bar. Maybe Clam chucking.

You're correct they're definitely under qualified for actually opening the clam, correction submitted to the editorial dept. And of course he is on the cover of GQ that shouldn't be so surprising. He is the current useful idiot the MSM is using to tear down what they consider anything male and heterosexual in nature. Football is both and therefore hated by these people as they are the ones that send they're sons to Harvard to take up Art History and https://www.teenvogue.com/story/anal-sex-workshop-harvard. Soon as this blows over they'll cast him aside like a used condom and he'll be forced to doing gay porno, bet you he receives rather than kicks off, just looks the type.

[Heatnbeat]

Ah Crappernick is in good company on the GGAcover.
Louie CK, Harvey Weinstein, Woody Allen, Kevin Spacey, and Charlie Sheen also graced GQ's cover.

[wildman]

Week 10 results.

week-10-thousands-empty-seats-still-plague-nfl-stadiums (http://www.breitbart.com/sports/2017/11/12/week-10-thousands-empty-seats-still-plague-nfl-stadiums/)

Why encourage this behavior ?

https://media.gq.com/photos/5a0621ab03714b6ea9a92077/master/w_800/gq-moty-cover-kaepernick.jpg

Excuse me, didn't you mean "shit head" of the year?

[tenxxx]

Haters be hattin, but I still wish the weather would warm up so I can ride.