Harakiri

[Verismo]

Do any of you gentleman have any insight about the inside history of the Goldwing engineering? I've always wondered about it.

My dad and Uncles were Goldwing guys. My first motorcycle was a 1984 GL1200 Standard. I still own it, and even though the carbs are currently apart, when they are on the bike it runs as smooth as ever and is an amazingly refined machine, even by today's standards. I've always been in love with the horizontally opposed motorcycle platform and what Honda has done with it, and don't know how the first ideas made their way into Honda engineering, and would love it if any of you guys had any knowledge about this and could shed some light.

Jason

[Phantom]

Do any of you gentleman have any insight about the inside history of the Goldwing engineering? I've always wondered about it.

My dad and Uncles were Goldwing guys. My first motorcycle was a 1984 GL1200 Standard. I still own it, and even though the carbs are currently apart, when they are on the bike it runs as smooth as ever and is an amazingly refined machine, even by today's standards. I've always been in love with the horizontally opposed motorcycle platform and what Honda has done with it, and don't know how the first ideas made their way into Honda engineering, and would love it if any of you guys had any knowledge about this and could shed some light.

Jason

Welcome to the forum.

Volkswagon beetles had the flat 4 design first then they expanded their engines to fit their Porsche sibling line that needed flat 6's,
German engineering copied by the Japanese. Subaru's have flat 4 and flat 6 engines. Ferrari had a flat 12 at one time.

[willtill]

"Seppuku, sometimes metathesized as harakiri is a form of Japanese ritual suicide by disembowelment.....

Why do you use harakiri as a title for your post? :shock:

[Verismo]

Welcome to the forum.

Volkswagon beetles had the flat 4 design first then they expanded their engines to fit their Porsche sibling line that needed flat 6's,
German engineering copied by the Japanese. Subaru's have flat 4 and flat 6 engines. Ferrari had a flat 12 at one time.

Thanks for your response. I was aware of the prior employment of the horizontally opposed engine in several cars. Just not in motorcycles, especially in the American segment. I'm more interested in how the Japanese engineers went about this transition, especially considering what a radical departure it was from American twins.

Jason

[Verismo]

"Seppuku, sometimes metathesized as harakiri is a form of Japanese ritual suicide by disembowelment.....

Why do you use harakiri as a title for your post? :shock:

Because the ritual has made it into Japanese corporate culture before, and I've often wondered if this kind of pressure or something akin to it was ever present, and if so to what degree, at Honda.

Jason

[willtill]

Because the ritual has made it into Japanese corporate culture before, and I've often wondered in this kind of pressure or something akin to it was ever present, and if so to what degree, at Honda.

Jason

I think your reading way too much into Honda motorcycle product development.

I'm going to bow out of this thread. It's just too deep. :icon_lol:

[Verismo]

I think your reading way too much into Honda motorcycle product development.

I'm going to bow out of this thread. It's just too deep. :icon_lol:

Lol, you think wondering if a part of Japanese culture made it into a Japanese company is "reading too much into" it?

Lol, Alrighty..

Jason

[druggr]

This is one of the better history books I've read. It a nice read of the challenges involved with creating something that had never been created at the time ... an opposed, water cooled, shaft driven m/c. If I recall, the engineers had to fight with Mr. Honda because he wanted it to be a 2-stroke. It was originally a 6-cylinder engine, but they didn't think a 6 cylinder would sell, thus the early 4-cylinders. Also, Honda didn't have a drive shaft. At first they used a BMW one until they designed their own. The drive shaft alone took them like 2 years to get to a final design. I'm sure you will find it an interesting read too. Honda used to give these books away for free at their yearly factory event. This books history is from generation 0 thru 4. If you google GoldWing history books, you'ill find a couple of other history books.

https://www.amazon.com/Gold-Wing-First-Twentieth-Anniversary/dp/0964249103/ref=pd_sim_14_1?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=0964249103&pd_rd_r=8QK5ZZ4C7ANYJPY6HBH9&pd_rd_w=zSjLJ&pd_rd_wg=ObURO&psc=1&refRID=8QK5ZZ4C7ANYJPY6HBH9

You can also read here, but this more of a linear history from model to model less all the engineering struggles of getting there.

http://world.honda.com/GoldWing/history/

[Verismo]

This is one of the better history books I've read. It a nice read of the challenges involved with creating something that had never been created at the time ... an opposed, water cooled, shaft driven m/c. If I recall, the engineers had to fight with Mr. Honda because he wanted it to be a 2-stroke. It was originally a 6-cylinder engine, but they didn't think a 6 cylinder would sell, thus the early 4-cylinders. Also, Honda didn't have a drive shaft. At first they used a BMW one until they designed their own. The drive shaft alone took them like 2 years to get to a final design. I'm sure you will find it an interesting read too. Honda used to give these books away for free at their yearly factory event. This books history is from generation 0 thru 4. If you google GoldWing history books, you'ill find a couple of other history books.

https://www.amazon.com/Gold-Wing-First-Twentieth-Anniversary/dp/0964249103/ref=pd_sim_14_1?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=0964249103&pd_rd_r=8QK5ZZ4C7ANYJPY6HBH9&pd_rd_w=zSjLJ&pd_rd_wg=ObURO&psc=1&refRID=8QK5ZZ4C7ANYJPY6HBH9

You can also read here, but this more of a linear history from model to model less all the engineering struggles of getting there.

http://world.honda.com/GoldWing/history/


:yikes::yes::icon_biggrin:

Thanks, druggr! That's great and I appreciate it!!!

Jason

[Retired Army]

Now for the burning question. Does the plane of the piston rotation of the flat engine contribute to the smoothness of the Gold Wing?

[BIGLRY]

Now for the burning question. Does the plane of the piston rotation of the flat engine contribute to the smoothness of the Gold Wing?
Yeap, along with several other engineered designed aspects of the engine platform!

[F6Dave]

Soichiro Honda loved exotic engines. He developed multiple V-12 Formula One engines in the 1960s, including a 1.5 liter version mounted transversely, and won a few Grand Prix.

In 1969 he stunned the motorcycle world with the CB750. An OHC inline 4 (with 4 carbs, 4 mufflers, and a disk brake) was revolutionary in a time of pushrod twins and drum brakes. Then in 1978 he gave us the 6 cylinder CBX.

In 1982 the V45 was introduced. There were Magna and Sabre versions initially. They had a water cooled, 4 cam, 16 valve V-4. That was a fairly radical engine design in a time when air cooled inline 4s were the norm.

The water cooled 1000 cc flat 4 was a real standout in the 1975 Goldwing, especially when combined with all the other advanced features like belt-driven cams, shaft drive, and triple disk brakes. But when you look at Mr. Honda's history it fits right in.

[Verismo]

Soichiro Honda loved exotic engines. He developed multiple V-12 Formula One engines in the 1960s, including a 1.5 liter version mounted transversely, and won a few Grand Prix.

In 1969 he stunned the motorcycle world ...

Thank you, F6Dave! Despite my love for this particular motorcycle platform, I've never done any research into Honda. Partially too busy doing other things (and riding!)

After seeing Honda's first name, I was inspired to read his Wikipedia entry. Really interesting! I thought it was pretty fascinating that he actually suffered the loss of his first major business, a piston ring manufacturing factory for Toyota, due to the U.S. bombing it during World War Two! He sold the salvaged remains and used the money to fund the first iteration of Honda. What a comeback story! One of these days I'll do some actual research and see if I can find some engineers' writings, diary entries, etc., for some real insight into Honda's 1970's corporate culture.

Jason

[F6Dave]

Thank you, F6Dave! Despite my love for this particular motorcycle platform, I've never done any research into Honda. Partially too busy doing other things (and riding!)

After seeing Honda's first name, I was inspired to read his Wikipedia entry. Really interesting! I thought it was pretty fascinating that he actually suffered the loss of his first major business, a piston ring manufacturing factory for Toyota, due to the U.S. bombing it during World War Two! He sold the salvaged remains and used the money to fund the first iteration of Honda. What a comeback story! One of these days I'll do some actual research and see if I can find some engineers' writings, diary entries, etc., for some real insight into Honda's 1970's corporate culture.

Jason

He was an amazing man. He significantly altered the course of motorcycle history. It was exciting to watch the covers of motorcycle magazines through Honda's best years, because they were always introducing some innovation that would surpass all the competition. Sometimes they seemed to just be showing off their technical expertise, like the NR engines with oval pistons and 8 valves per cylinder.

After the death of Mr. Honda in 1991 the innovation began to slow. Without his passion for motorcycles the new products were less frequent and less radical. This carried over to other areas of the company too. Honda engines dominated Formula One racing in the 1980s and 90s, but today they struggle to make the top 10. It's still a great company. My F6B is a great motorcycle and the new Wing looks awesome. But it isn't like the old days.

[unsub]

Soichiro Honda loved exotic engines. He developed multiple V-12 Formula One engines in the 1960s, including a 1.5 liter version mounted transversely, and won a few Grand Prix.

In 1969 he stunned the motorcycle world with the CB750. An OHC inline 4 (with 4 carbs, 4 mufflers, and a disk brake) was revolutionary in a time of pushrod twins and drum brakes. Then in 1978 he gave us the 6 cylinder CBX.

In 1982 the V45 was introduced. There were Magna and Sabre versions initially. They had a water cooled, 4 cam, 16 valve V-4. That was a fairly radical engine design in a time when air cooled inline 4s were the norm.

The water cooled 1000 cc flat 4 was a real standout in the 1975 Goldwing, especially when combined with all the other advanced features like belt-driven cams, shaft drive, and triple disk brakes. But when you look at Mr. Honda's history it fits right in.

In between those two Honda pushed out a CB350 4 cylinder as well. 72-74 That was a mind blower at the time because of it's small size....

[F6Dave]

In between those two Honda pushed out a CB350 4 cylinder as well. 72-74 That was a mind blower at the time because of it's small size....

Yes, that was a very nice bike. There were some awesome small bikes in that era. Two years later they upgraded the 350 to the CB400F, which had a beautiful chrome 4 into 1 exhaust system.

[opas ride]

Yes, that was a very nice bike. There were some awesome small bikes in that era. Two years later they upgraded the 350 to the CB400F, which had a beautiful chrome 4 into 1 exhaust system.

I had one of the CB400F series and absolutely loved the thing...Handled great, smooth, fast for bikes in those days, looked super and one of my all time favorites....Should have kept longer, but traded it for a 750 Honda which was also a super bike....Miss the good old days!!...Ride safe

[shortleg0521]

Thanks for your response. I was aware of the prior employment of the horizontally opposed engine in several cars. Just not in motorcycles, especially in the American segment. I'm more interested in how the Japanese engineers went about this transition, especially considering what a radical departure it was from American twins.

Jason

May want to check out a few BMWs for some more info on the cylinder lay out.
They used it for years. I had an old BMW with what was called earls forks
and having a side car that had a spare tire mounted on it.
That spare tire fit the bike front and back, also fit the side car.
Now that there is innovation.
It was a flat two cylinder air cooled.

[Verismo]

May want to check out a few BMWs for some more info on the cylinder lay out.
They used it for years. I had an old BMW with what was called earls forks
and having a side car that had a spare tire mounted on it.
That spare tire fit the bike front and back, also fit the side car.
Now that there is innovation.
It was a flat two cylinder air cooled.

Got any pics? Would love to see it. I did some reading based on your recommendation and the Germans were definitely ahead of that curve with both the opposed motorcycle engines and shaft drive. I haven't yet dug enough to find out whether any were water cooled. But I did learn something super interesting to me, at least. Harley Davidson was commissioned, by the U.S. military during World War Two, no less, to build a horizontally opposed engine with shaft drive to copy the ingenuity and reliability of the Germans. They came up with the XA, of which they built 1000. Can you imagine what the conversations must've been like in the Harley workshops at the time? Being asked by Uncle Sam to copy the Germans for their superior bikes during World War Two?! Wow. Also, what would Harley currently be like if they had followed up with their XA design and improved upon it, instead of going with the V Twin, which ran 100° fahrenheit hotter.

I love treasure hunts like this.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harley-Davidson_XA

Jason

[F6Dave]

I was just reading my October AMA magazine, and there was an article about the Honda RC161. The engine was a 250 cc, 16 valve, DOHC inline 4 with a 6 speed transmission. It made 38 HP and redlined at 14,000 RPM. Amazingly, Honda built this bike in 1960!

[Miks]

This is one from the old archives of telling tales and kicking lies or something to that effect. Nonetheless, I remember back in the days when the Goldwing was a 1,000 cc engine. Talk was that it was designed to compete with the hot rod bikes of the day including the Kawasaki KZ 900 that was considered the fastest 1/4 mile bike at the time. It's true that Honda went through the development of a six cylinder before deciding on the four, and the debate also included do we make it a performance bike or touring.

I think the popularity of the opposed TWIN that BMW was famous for ever since WWII, had something to do with the decision to try an opposed engine. Honda wanted something smoother, so a twin was out. He had came out with the CB750 in 1969 and really didn't think too many people would be interested in a 1,000 cc bike due to the weight and size of the engine.

Because the torque and power of the 1,000 was so impressive, I know from personal experience, that a co-worker was so burned up by the fact he was beaten by a GL1000 on his KZ900, he was absolutely pissed off! I remember asking him the question twice - so you got beat in a drag race by what? Roddie was his name, I hope he got over it .batman-smilie.

When Craig Vetter started mounting his famous "Windjammer" on the frame, it was the perfect marriage, and the rest is history :icon_razz: