New Tesla Roadster- 0-60 MPH- 1.9 seconds. 620 mile range.

[Verismo]

If Musk is correct about these numbers, I can't wait to hear what the gripe is about this from this group.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2017/11/17/16669024/tesla-roadster-2017-fastest-car-world

Jason

[LA Weld]

If Musk is correct about these numbers, I can't wait to hear what the gripe is about this from this group.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2017/11/17/16669024/tesla-roadster-2017-fastest-car-world

Jason
If he is Correct!
Wait and see!:jerkit:

[choptop]

Nice, but as I miss the rumble of a Harley, I would miss the rumble of a high horsepower v8.

[willtill]

Nice, but as I miss the rumble of a Harley, I would miss the rumble of a high horsepower v8.

That car is electric, so the rumble can be synthesized and projected :icon_lol:

[Jimmytee]

So has fuel cell technology just been abandoned? How long does one have to wait to charge the batteries after they are depleted? I like seeing technology improve, but let's face it, 620 mile range doesn't mean 620 I'm sure if taking advantage of the 0-60 times.:icon_wink: Pretty cool though. Having been used to the rather quiet nature and turbine like sound of our GL1800s , going electric is not a stretch, other than the range limitations.

https://i.imgur.com/yu3AOpL.jpg

[BIGLRY]

So has fuel cell technology just been abandoned? How long does one have to wait to charge the batteries after they are depleted? I like seeing technology improve, but let's face it, 620 mile range doesn't mean 620 I'm sure if taking advantage of the 0-60 times.:icon_wink: Pretty cool though. Having been used to the rather quiet nature and turbine like sound of our GL1800s , going electric is not a stretch, other than the range limitations.

https://i.imgur.com/yu3AOpL.jpg
:lolup: I love it....a Honda charging up a BMW.:icon_lol:

Now if ya got a lot to haul... Tesla just announced a new electric 18 wheeler to be on the market in a few years.
http://money.cnn.com/2017/11/17/technology/tesla-semi-truck-reveal/index.html
Tesla unveiled its new semi-truck, which CEO Elon Musk said can go zero-to-60 in five seconds with an empty trailer. That's a figure usually associated with luxury sedans, not big trucks. With a full load, the truck can still reach that speed in 20 seconds, according to Musk, much faster than any diesel-powered truck.

https://cdn.teslarati.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Tesla-Semi-truck-nikola-one.jpg

[opas ride]

I personally think Tesla executives are smoking to much funny stuff....Some of the top brass in the auto industry are suggesting that they will be out of business by 2019 as they are burning through way to much cash, battery technology is the same for the entire auto industry and the competition will get worse for them...They have no dealer network and a lot of negatives at this point..Just because their stock is high priced does not guarantee success...There cars are nice, but the average person cannot afford one in most cases. I guess we wait and see what the future brings, but for now, me and mine will stick with a good old internal combustion engine...My Fusion Sport is fast enough to get me trouble!!....Ride safe

[edgeman55]

I personally think Tesla executives are smoking to much funny stuff....Some of the top brass in the auto industry are suggesting that they will be out of business by 2019 as they are burning through way to much cash, battery technology is the same for the entire auto industry and the competition will get worse for them...They have no dealer network and a lot of negatives at this point..Just because their stock is high priced does not guarantee success...There cars are nice, but the average person cannot afford one in most cases. I guess we wait and see what the future brings, but for now, me and mine will stick with a good old internal combustion engine...My Fusion Sport is fast enough to get me trouble!!....Ride safe

They are far from being out of business.Just east of Reno NV they have built a 4.5 million sq ft facility that is 30% ramped up building batteries for there cars and new tech battery/solar units to tie in and aid residential power consumption.Forbes has said because of there new technology battery manufacturing prices for there batteries will drop and will be very competitive in a global market.In fact they just purchased another 1000 acres in the Tahoe industrial center to build another large factory-Speculation is that some of there new cars or who knows semis will be built there.I would not bet against Musk as he has spent a load of money but can see long range in terms of profit and technology.Plus he has brought thousands of good paying middle class jobs to our area.Were seeing true trickle down economics because of this with new jobs there is a need for new housing ect.Real boom here in Northern Nevada and the Tesla projects started it all.Google,Amazon,Walmart distribution and the worlds largest Cloud called Switch which backs data information world wide are all in the same Industrial center now.Projected jobs to reach 40-50 thousand over the next ten years.

[willtill]

They are far from being out of business.Just east of Reno NV they have built a 4.5 million sq ft facility that is 30% ramped up building batteries for there cars and new tech battery/solar units to tie in and aid residential power consumption.Forbes has said because of there new technology battery manufacturing prices for there batteries will drop and will be very competitive in a global market.In fact they just purchased another 1000 acres in the Tahoe industrial center to build another large factory-Speculation is that some of there new cars or who knows semis will be built there.I would not bet against Musk as he has spent a load of money but can see long range in terms of profit and technology.Plus he has brought thousands of good paying middle class jobs to our area.Were seeing true trickle down economics because of this with new jobs there is a need for new housing ect.Real boom here in Northern Nevada and the Tesla projects started it all.Google,Amazon,Walmart distribution and the worlds largest Cloud called Switch which backs data information world wide are all in the same Industrial center now.Projected jobs to reach 40-50 thousand over the next ten years.

Very good stuff if all of that pans out. :yes:

[opas ride]

They are far from being out of business.Just east of Reno NV they have built a 4.5 million sq ft facility that is 30% ramped up building batteries for there cars and new tech battery/solar units to tie in and aid residential power consumption.Forbes has said because of there new technology battery manufacturing prices for there batteries will drop and will be very competitive in a global market.In fact they just purchased another 1000 acres in the Tahoe industrial center to build another large factory-Speculation is that some of there new cars or who knows semis will be built there.I would not bet against Musk as he has spent a load of money but can see long range in terms of profit and technology.Plus he has brought thousands of good paying middle class jobs to our area.Were seeing true trickle down economics because of this with new jobs there is a need for new housing ect.Real boom here in Northern Nevada and the Tesla projects started it all.Google,Amazon,Walmart distribution and the worlds largest Cloud called Switch which backs data information world wide are all in the same Industrial center now.Projected jobs to reach 40-50 thousand over the next ten years.

Maybe so, maybe not.....Pure speculation on Musk's part for now and only time will tell....I hope he brings jobs and etc. but some of the best intentions fail....I wish them luck and at my age don't really care as by the time all this electric stuff is available in the market place I doubt I will have much interest...I am for technology and progress for the world as my 16 Grandkids will live in it, but for now I will stick with what I think is best for me....Regards

[ths61]

I personally think Tesla executives are smoking to much funny stuff....Some of the top brass in the auto industry are suggesting that they will be out of business by 2019 as they are burning through way to much cash, battery technology is the same for the entire auto industry and the competition will get worse for them...They have no dealer network and a lot of negatives at this point..Just because their stock is high priced does not guarantee success...There cars are nice, but the average person cannot afford one in most cases. I guess we wait and see what the future brings, but for now, me and mine will stick with a good old internal combustion engine...My Fusion Sport is fast enough to get me trouble!!....Ride safe

As long as they continue to force taxpayers to foot the bill for both development and sales incentives, they will stay in business.

I would like to see how long they would be in business if they had to do it on their own, like most businesses.

[Verismo]

As long as they continue to force taxpayers to foot the bill for both development and sales incentives, they will stay in business.

I would like to see how long they would be in business if they had to do it on their own, like most businesses.

I'd personally like to see more people get behind and support the technology which has the potential of being more sustainable AND increasing performance.

Jason

[Heatnbeat]

I'm not sure I'd consider the Tesla's technology to be more sustainable considering the energy to power the vehicles comes from the same place as our current vehicles. Unless we start building nukes they are still powered by petrochemicals.

[Verismo]

I'm not sure I'd consider the Tesla's technology to be more sustainable considering the energy to power the vehicles comes from the same place as our current vehicles. Unless we start building nukes they are still powered by petrochemicals.

Musk already announced that Supercharger stations will be converted to solar so they will be off grid. So that narrative isn't going to work much longer.

Jason

[ths61]

I'd personally like to see more people get behind and support the technology which has the potential of being more sustainable AND increasing performance.

Jason

But should they be forced to do so against their will ? That is the question.

BHO's list of faltering or bankrupt taxpayer funded green-energy companies:

Evergreen Solar ($25 million)*
SpectraWatt ($500,000)*
Solyndra ($535 million)*
Beacon Power ($43 million)*
Nevada Geothermal ($98.5 million)
SunPower ($1.2 billion)
First Solar ($1.46 billion)
Babcock and Brown ($178 million)
EnerDel’s subsidiary Ener1 ($118.5 million)*
Amonix ($5.9 million)
Fisker Automotive ($529 million)
Abound Solar ($400 million)*
A123 Systems ($279 million)*
Willard and Kelsey Solar Group ($700,981)*
Johnson Controls ($299 million)
Schneider Electric ($86 million)
Brightsource ($1.6 billion)
ECOtality ($126.2 million)
Raser Technologies ($33 million)*
Energy Conversion Devices ($13.3 million)*
Mountain Plaza, Inc. ($2 million)*
Olsen’s Crop Service and Olsen’s Mills Acquisition Company ($10 million)*
Range Fuels ($80 million)*
Thompson River Power ($6.5 million)*
Stirling Energy Systems ($7 million)*
Azure Dynamics ($5.4 million)*
GreenVolts ($500,000)
Vestas ($50 million)
LG Chem’s subsidiary Compact Power ($151 million)
Nordic Windpower ($16 million)*
Navistar ($39 million)
Satcon ($3 million)*
Konarka Technologies Inc. ($20 million)*
Mascoma Corp. ($100 million)

[jm21ddd15]

But should they be forced to do so against their will ? That is the question.

BHO's list of faltering or bankrupt taxpayer funded green-energy companies:

Evergreen Solar ($25 million)*
SpectraWatt ($500,000)*
Solyndra ($535 million)*
Beacon Power ($43 million)*
Nevada Geothermal ($98.5 million)
SunPower ($1.2 billion)
First Solar ($1.46 billion)
Babcock and Brown ($178 million)
EnerDel’s subsidiary Ener1 ($118.5 million)*
Amonix ($5.9 million)
Fisker Automotive ($529 million)
Abound Solar ($400 million)*
A123 Systems ($279 million)*
Willard and Kelsey Solar Group ($700,981)*
Johnson Controls ($299 million)
Schneider Electric ($86 million)
Brightsource ($1.6 billion)
ECOtality ($126.2 million)
Raser Technologies ($33 million)*
Energy Conversion Devices ($13.3 million)*
Mountain Plaza, Inc. ($2 million)*
Olsen’s Crop Service and Olsen’s Mills Acquisition Company ($10 million)*
Range Fuels ($80 million)*
Thompson River Power ($6.5 million)*
Stirling Energy Systems ($7 million)*
Azure Dynamics ($5.4 million)*
GreenVolts ($500,000)
Vestas ($50 million)
LG Chem’s subsidiary Compact Power ($151 million)
Nordic Windpower ($16 million)*
Navistar ($39 million)
Satcon ($3 million)*
Konarka Technologies Inc. ($20 million)*
Mascoma Corp. ($100 million)


Yup! More government spending our taxes down the tube. Here in the mid-west, we have many "corn ethanol" plants, for the gas that rots engine components. These plants would mostly all be bankrupt, without government subsities. And to top that off, they use a gallon of fresh water in the manufacturing process, for each gallon of ethanol. What a waste.

[Verismo]

But should they be forced to do so against their will ? That is the question.

BHO's list of faltering or bankrupt taxpayer funded green-energy companies:

Evergreen Solar ($25 million)*
SpectraWatt ($500,000)*
Solyndra ($535 million)*
Beacon Power ($43 million)*
Nevada Geothermal ($98.5 million)
SunPower ($1.2 billion)
First Solar ($1.46 billion)
Babcock and Brown ($178 million)
EnerDel’s subsidiary Ener1 ($118.5 million)*
Amonix ($5.9 million)
Fisker Automotive ($529 million)
Abound Solar ($400 million)*
A123 Systems ($279 million)*
Willard and Kelsey Solar Group ($700,981)*
Johnson Controls ($299 million)
Schneider Electric ($86 million)
Brightsource ($1.6 billion)
ECOtality ($126.2 million)
Raser Technologies ($33 million)*
Energy Conversion Devices ($13.3 million)*
Mountain Plaza, Inc. ($2 million)*
Olsen’s Crop Service and Olsen’s Mills Acquisition Company ($10 million)*
Range Fuels ($80 million)*
Thompson River Power ($6.5 million)*
Stirling Energy Systems ($7 million)*
Azure Dynamics ($5.4 million)*
GreenVolts ($500,000)
Vestas ($50 million)
LG Chem’s subsidiary Compact Power ($151 million)
Nordic Windpower ($16 million)*
Navistar ($39 million)
Satcon ($3 million)*
Konarka Technologies Inc. ($20 million)*
Mascoma Corp. ($100 million)

I'm not sure, Ths61, but maybe? Don't people often have to be forced to do healthy things against their natural inclinations for the greater good? That's why laws are necessary. It's unfortunate that our natural inclinations don't all lead to the healthiest outcomes, but it seems like that's often the reality of human nature.

Jason

[willtill]

I'm not sure, Ths61, but maybe? Don't people often have to be forced to do healthy things against their natural inclinations for the greater good? That's why laws are necessary. It's unfortunate that our natural inclinations don't all lead to the healthiest outcomes, but it seems like that's often the reality of human nature.

Jason

What you may perceive to be healthy, may be unhealthy to me; as it relates to the end game.

Not all laws are good laws. :nono:

[Verismo]

What you may perceive to be healthy, may be unhealthy to me; as it relates to the end game.

Not all laws are good laws. :nono:

That statement's a little broad, Willtill. What do you mean? What's unhealthy about solar powered semi's that can outhaul diesels?

Jason

[jm21ddd15]

Solar Power sounds good. How ever, producing the batteries, is not so good to the enviornment, or to people. And when these battery operated vehicles crash, and they do, burning and or exploding batteries really sucks to the rescue personel, and the vehicle recovery people. And where are we putting these damaged, leaking "super batteries"?

Like Willtill, I feel what some perceive as healthy, may be unhealthy to me; as it relates to the end game.

[Verismo]

Solar Power sounds good. How ever, producing the batteries, is not so good to the enviornment, or to people. And when these battery operated vehicles crash, and they do, burning and or exploding batteries really sucks to the rescue personel, and the vehicle recovery people. And where are we putting these damaged, leaking "super batteries"?

Like Willtill, I feel what some perceive as healthy, may be unhealthy to me; as it relates to the end game.

These complaints sound pretty antiquated. You could almost substitute the same arguments from the time we went from horse drawn carriages to automobiles. "They're so dangerous. I don't trust the technology. When they crash gas is highly flammable and can explode." It sounds like garden variety resistance to change without much reason.

Jason

[ths61]

I'm not sure, Ths61, but maybe? Don't people often have to be forced to do healthy things against their natural inclinations for the greater good? That's why laws are necessary. It's unfortunate that our natural inclinations don't all lead to the healthiest outcomes, but it seems like that's often the reality of human nature.

Jason

In this case it is a scam, as well as others. The taxpayers are being ripped off and the politicians are paying kickbacks to their pals by stealing from the people they are suppose to serve. Same goes for BHONoCare. The already rich insurance companies have doubled their profits "for the good of all". It is a big con game and some people are too gullible to see what they are doing, "for the good of all". If the company can't stand on its own merits, it should fail. You could sell arsenic "for the good of all people" as long as the masses are forced to pay for it until there are no more masses to pay for it.

People are starting to realize that solar is a scam and have stopped renting/leasing/2nd/3rd mortgaging it. Now that they can't sell it, they are starting to try and offer DIY kits and schools to sell the crap.

BHO's Solindra scam was such an obvious kickback to his big donors that he actually changed the bankruptcy payout laws at the same time so his cronies would get paid out first and the shareholders would get screwed.

Elan Musk is playing the same game. He has never met a taxpayer he didn't like. We are paying for his developments and then funding the rich to buy his $100,000 cars that have the same carbon footprint as gasoline vehicles when you consider the entire manufacturing process. The middle class can't afford them because they are being forced to pay the rich to buy them.

[jm21ddd15]

These complaints sound pretty antiquated. You could almost substitute the same arguments from the time we went from horse drawn carriages to automobiles. "They're so dangerous. I don't trust the technology. When they crash gas is highly flammable and can explode." It sounds like garden variety resistance to change without much reason.

Jason

Well, plenty of actual crash videos on line, and fire dept test crashes, showing the difficulties of putting out these type fires. Firefighters must wear masks and respirators. Some of the chemicals in the electric fires cannot be extinguished with water, must use special foams, then must call in Haz-Mat teams for final cleaning of crash sites, etc. That's not "garden variety" resistance. I'm not against progress, but these are real issues.

[ths61]

Well, plenty of actual crash videos on line, and fire dept test crashes, showing the difficulties of putting out these type fires. Firefighters must wear masks and respirators. Some of the chemicals in the electric fires cannot be extinguished with water, must use special foams, then must call in Haz-Mat teams for final cleaning of crash sites, etc. That's not "garden variety" resistance. I'm not against progress, but these are real issues.

Not to mention the Chevy Volt's spontaneous combustion features. :icon_razz:

[Verismo]

In this case it is a scam, as well as others. The taxpayers are being ripped off and the politicians are paying kickbacks to their pals by stealing from the people they are suppose to serve. Same goes for BHONoCare. The already rich insurance companies have doubled their profits "for the good of all". It is a big con game and some people are too gullible to see what they are doing, "for the good of all". If the company can't stand on its own merits, it should fail. You could sell arsenic "for the good of all people" as long as the masses are forced to pay for it until there are no more masses to pay for it.

People are starting to realize that solar is a scam and have stopped renting/leasing/2nd/3rd mortgaging it. Now that they can't sell it, they are starting to try and offer DIY kits and schools to sell the crap.

BHO's Solindra scam was such an obvious kickback to his big donors that he actually changed the bankruptcy payout laws at the same time so his cronies would get paid out first and the shareholders would get screwed.

Elan Musk is playing the same game. He has never met a taxpayer he didn't like. We are paying for his developments and then funding the rich to buy his $100,000 cars that have the same carbon footprint as gasoline vehicles when you consider the entire manufacturing process. The middle class can't afford them because they are being forced to pay the rich to buy them.

Musk released all Tesla patents to the general public so that other car makers can also make lower emissions vehicles. I don't believe he's scamming anybody. I think he's genuinely trying to make a positive impact on the planet. And given how entrenched the oil and gas industry is, and how much less efficient it is by comparison, I think we should be adapting towards electric by whatever mechanisms necessary, especially when it will eventually be net cheaper anyway, and MUCH better for the planet.

Jason

[opas ride]

Read the article published today by Barrons..It pretty much tells it like it is and I totally tend to agree...The major players in the automobile industry, Mercedes. BMW, Ford, GM, Toyota, Volkswagen, etc. will crush Tesla's efforts very soon..Tesla is burning way to much cash, has to many challenges in the future, does not have enough production to make a dent in the industry, etc. etc. Musk is a typical "BS" artist and when he loses taxpayer support and other incentives...Goodbye!!...Most other car makers already have electric cars, self driving cars, and battery technology that matches that of Tesla, better dealer networks, and cars that many can afford...The "big-rig" concept for over the road driving is a joke...Ask most truckers about this monster....Not against improving technology and future advances, just a little tired of government/tax payer money going to support this guy!!!....JMHO and ride safe

[Verismo]

Well, plenty of actual crash videos on line, and fire dept test crashes, showing the difficulties of putting out these type fires. Firefighters must wear masks and respirators. Some of the chemicals in the electric fires cannot be extinguished with water, must use special foams, then must call in Haz-Mat teams for final cleaning of crash sites, etc. That's not "garden variety" resistance. I'm not against progress, but these are real issues.

I'm not saying there aren't new adaptations required for electric, jm21. I'm just saying that's always the case with every new thing. Just imagine yourself as a horse drawn carriage passenger who saw your first automobile fire on a road. You'd probably think it was pretty dramatic, and much more dangerous than a carriage, and that would never happen with a carriage. And you'd be right. But would that have been a good enough reason to stem progress? I don't think so then or now.

Jason

[F6B1911]

Solar Power sounds good.....

Yeah, but my solar powered F6B prototype doesn't do very well after dusk!
And the Wind Turbine prototype keeps getting bent blades from hitting the traffic signals.

[ths61]

Musk released all Tesla patents to the general public so that other car makers can also make lower emissions vehicles. I don't believe he's scamming anybody. I think he's genuinely trying to make a positive impact on the planet. And given how entrenched the oil and gas industry is, and how much less efficient it is by comparison, I think we should be adapting towards electric by whatever mechanisms necessary, especially when it will eventually be net cheaper anyway, and MUCH better for the planet.

Jason

Musk's profit, company and pseudo-philanthropy will end the same day the mandatory taxpayer funding is removed.

Elon Musk's empire is fueled by $4.9 billion in taxpayer subsidies (http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-20150531-story.html)

It is very easy to "make" a few million when you are GIVEN BILLION$$$.

[Verismo]

Read the article published today by Barrons..It pretty much tells it like it is and I totally tend to agree...The major players in the automobile industry, Mercedes. BMW, Ford, GM, Toyota, Volkswagen, etc. will crush Tesla's efforts very soon..Tesla is burning way to much cash, has to many challenges in the future, does not have enough production to make a dent in the industry, etc. etc. Musk is a typical "BS" artist and when he loses taxpayer support and other incentives...Goodbye!!...Most other car makers already have electric cars, self driving cars, and battery technology that matches that of Tesla, better dealer networks, and cars that many can afford...The "big-rig" concept for over the road driving is a joke...Ask most truckers about this monster....Not against improving technology and future advances, just a little tired of government/tax payer money going to support this guy!!!....JMHO and ride safe

Opus, I'll read the article per your suggestion. And I think some of your observations have merit. The production bottlenecks are a definite problem, and if he has trouble with his lower end model selling, I agree with you that could be a big problem for his business. But if other automakers end up swallowing him up, then it will partially be with the help of his technology through his released patents that they do so. Calling him a BS artist might be one of the biggest underestimations I've seen. He literally built the first ever reusable rocket with his company space x. Interesting dude. You should read his Wiki.

Jason

[Phantom]

:shrug:
Can someone please educate me ....

How is electricity produced? Coal, Oil, CNG, Nuclear, Hydro power... etc etc etc

The fossil fuels are still being used to recharge these vehicles indirectly, are they not?

The need for additional Electric Charging Stations versus existing Gasoline Stations is only shifting the source of energy.

So now the CO2 carbon footprint is concentrated to Electricity producing plants and their neighborhoods?

What am I missing ?

[ths61]

It is a scam. The sales pitch is something for nothing. A perpetual motion machine which doesn't exist. Hide the carbon footprints in 3rd world countries and behind closed doors.

Elon Musk pulled out of Trump's counsel when Trump pulled out of the Paris Climate Accord. Musk did so because he knew it would impact his cash cow, forcing taxpayers to pay for the expensive slight of hand called green energy scams.

Green energy scams made Al Gore rich and he doesn't even use solar on his beach side mansion that will soon be underwater according to his melting icecap/rising sea level scare tactics.

https://image.ibb.co/mibSv6/image_123.jpg

[Verismo]

It is a scam. The sales pitch is something for nothing. A perpetual motion machine which doesn't exist. Hide the carbon footprints in 3rd world countries and behind closed doors.

Elon Musk pulled out of Trump's counsel when Trump pulled out of the Paris Climate Accord. Musk did so because he knew it would impact his cash cow, forcing taxpayers to pay for the expensive slight of hand called green energy scams.

Green energy scams made Al Gore rich and he doesn't even use solar on his beach side mansion that will soon be underwater according to his melting icecap/rising sea level scare tactics.

https://image.ibb.co/mibSv6/image_123.jpg

It is never very long in any discussion about the health of the planet when Al Gore is brought up. I have never seen the Al Gore documentaries, and I don't care too much about unwinding other people's scams or conspiracy theories. I get my information from peer reviewed research. I've gone into detail about the facts concerning climate at length on another thread here.

I welcome a real conversation about the data and the peer reviewed research. But I just can't bring myself to care too much about Al Gore.

Jason

[ths61]

It is never very long in any discussion about the health of the planet when Al Gore is brought up. I have never seen the Al Gore documentaries, and I don't care too much about unwinding other people's scams or conspiracy theories. I get my information from peer reviewed research. I've gone into detail about the facts concerning climate at length on another thread here.

I welcome a real conversation about the data and the peer reviewed research. But I just can't bring myself to care too much about Al Gore.

Jason

Failing to recognize Al Gore is analogous to being an ostrich with its head in the sand. Al Gore is the poster child of green energy. It is all about $$$ and hypocracy. Forcing money out of the masses is the way to get rich in green energy. Al Gore and Elon Musk are riding the same fraudulent gravy train. A viable product and technology will stand on its own with willing private investors. When you have to steal from the masses to create an illusion of success, that is fraud. You would think with all of his millions he scammed off of green energy, he could afford solar panels to at least give the illusion he believes in what he is hocking.

[Verismo]

Failing to recognize Al Gore is analogous to being an ostrich with its head in the sand. Al Gore is the poster child of green energy. It is all about $$$ and hypocracy. Forcing money out of the masses is the way to get rich in green energy. Al Gore and Elon Musk are riding the same fraudulent gravy train. A viable product and technology will stand on its own. When you have to steal from the masses to create an illusion of success, that is fraud.

Al Gore isn't a climate scientist. And failing to understand that you shouldn't get your climate information from a politician is a little like taking your flat six to be repaired by a new Harley rider.

Jason

[ths61]

Al Gore isn't a climate scientist. And failing to understand that you shouldn't get your climate information from a politician is a little like taking your flat six to be repaired by a new Harley rider.

Jason

Nice deflection, but I never said he was a climate scientist. Neither is Bill Nye. I said he was a green energy/carbon footprint scam artist, huckster using the government to rob the taxpayers. Elon Musk is riding the same gravy train for the same reasons. Politicians use it to fund kickbacks. Globalists use it to control the flow of $$$ resources internationally.

[Jimmytee]

:shrug:
Can someone please educate me ....

How is electricity produced? Coal, Oil, CNG, Nuclear, Hydro power... etc etc etc

The fossil fuels are still being used to recharge these vehicles indirectly, are they not?

The need for additional Electric Charging Stations versus existing Gasoline Stations is only shifting the source of energy.

So now the CO2 carbon footprint is concentrated to Electricity producing plants and their neighborhoods?

What am I missing ?

:icon_biggrin:
Exactly. A scam. Just like all those wind farms you see. The requirements to manufacture and install these wind mills requires energy that these wind mills will never even come close to recouping over their life span. It just makes certain people "feel" good.

[ths61]

:icon_biggrin:
Exactly. A scam. Just like all those wind farms you see. The requirements to manufacture and install these wind mills requires energy that these wind mills will never even come close to recouping over their life span. It just makes certain people "feel" good.

I find it naive/hypocritical that "greenies" promote wind energy on one hand while screaming about killing endangered species on the other, but never make the connection that wind farms are giant puree machines slaughtering birds by the thousands including endangered species. Most people would be fined and/or imprisoned for killing those endangered birds but wind farms get a pass and the greenies look the other way.

[Verismo]

Nice deflection, but I never said he was a climate scientist. Neither is Bill Nye. I said he was a green energy/carbon footprint scam artist, huckster using the government to rob the taxpayers. Elon Musk is riding the same gravy train for the same reasons. Politicians use it to fund kickbacks. Globalists use it to control the flow of $$$ resources internationally.


LOL. So you think trying to steer a conversation about about climate science away from a politician and back toward an actual climate scientist is a deflection?

That is flatly backwards, ths61. And who said anything about Bill Nye? Also NOT a climate scientist. Talk about a deflection.

Do you have any debate about an actual climate scientist, peer reviewed and published in the field of climate science? Because to my mind, that would be much more relevant than trying to rely on a straw man like a politician or a children's entertainer.

Jason

[Verismo]

:shrug:
Can someone please educate me ....

How is electricity produced? Coal, Oil, CNG, Nuclear, Hydro power... etc etc etc

The fossil fuels are still being used to recharge these vehicles indirectly, are they not?

The need for additional Electric Charging Stations versus existing Gasoline Stations is only shifting the source of energy.

So now the CO2 carbon footprint is concentrated to Electricity producing plants and their neighborhoods?

What am I missing ?

That Musk already announced Supercharger stations will be converted to Solar, Phantom.

Jason

[ths61]

LOL. So you think trying to steer a conversation about about climate science away from a politician and back toward an actual climate scientist is a deflection?

That is flatly backwards, ths61. And who said anything about Bill Nye? Also NOT a climate scientist. Talk about a deflection.

Do you have any debate about an actual climate scientist, peer reviewed and published in the field of climate science? Because to my mind, that would be much more relevant than trying to rely on a straw man like a politician or a children's entertainer.

Jason

Al Gore and Bill Nye are the chief climate poster boys leading the public media on green energy. You admit they are charlatans but yet they use the very same biased pay-for-pre-determined-result studies you reference. A little hint, when you get paid to reach a biased per-determined conclusion, guess what conclusion you present ? Answer: The one that keeps the $$$ flowing.

Those studies are rife with exclusion of data and studies that does not fit the narrative, locating thermal sensors in cement jungles, tweaking the data, etc., all which yield a pre-determined conclusion. The studies are also too short within the history of the earth to have any statistical relevance.

Also, you have yet to respond all of the all the fraud or to Phantom's factual post that fossil fuels are charging the batteries, facilitating the mining, processing, production, maintenance and support network of electric cars. It is all a slight of hand for the myopic feel-goods to believe in.

I am all for real viable clean energy. Just haven't seen it yet.

[Verismo]

Al Gore and Bill Nye are the chief climate poster boys leading the public media on green energy. You admit they are charlatans but yet they use the very same biased pay-for-pre-determined-result studies you reference. A little hint, when you get paid to reach a biased per-determined conclusion, guess what conclusion you present ? Answer: The one that keeps the $$$ flowing.

Those studies are rife with exclusion of data and studies that does not fit the narrative, locating thermal sensors in cement jungles, tweaking the data, etc., all which yield a pre-determined conclusion. The studies are also too short within the history of the earth to have any statistical relevance.

Also, you have yet to respond all of the all the fraud or to Phantom's factual post that fossil fuels are charging the batteries, facilitating the mining, processing, production, maintenance and support network of electric cars. It is all a slight of hand for the myopic feel-goods to believe in.

I am all for real viable clean energy. Just haven't seen it yet.

I don't say they are charlatans, Ths61. I say I don't know, and I honestly don't care to know, because I prefer reading actual research. As to "the studies I reference", how would you know? I haven't referenced any studies because you're too busy talking about Al Gore to have an actual conversation. And you missed the response to Phantom. All Supercharger stations will be converted to solar.

Jason

[ths61]

I don't say they are charlatans, Ths61. I say I don't know, and I honestly don't care to know, because I prefer reading actual research. As to "the studies I reference", how would you know? I haven't referenced any studies because you're too busy talking about Al Gore to have an actual conversation. And you missed the response to Phantom. All Supercharger stations will be converted to solar.
...

You made sure to point out they are not climate scientists even though they are the biggest voices in the MSM.

You have referenced studies in your previous threads and numerous studies touted by the climate talking heads have been outright debunked as I already alluded to. Name one study that was not externally funded ?


...Also, you have yet to respond all of the all the fraud or to Phantom's factual post that fossil fuels are charging the batteries, facilitating the mining, processing, production, maintenance and support network of electric cars. ...

You parroted something Elon Musk said about charging stations, you did not respond to the fraud or to the mining, processing, production, maintenance and support of the network of electric cars all being done by fossil fuels. I have yet to see a solar powered strip mine, solar powered earth movers, etc. You are only picking and choosing small parts, not the complete process that makes up the actual carbon dioxide footprint.

[opas ride]

I am going to bow-out of this discussion about Tesla and wait and see...But IMHO Elton Musk may be smart in many regards, but he still is a "BS" artist like most politicians and will disappear with the dust when $Billions of dollars in taxpayer money goes South...Not faulting the man with his vision, but wonder how much government money Henry Ford and the Dodge brothers got to start up??..Regards and ride safe

[Verismo]

You made sure to point out they are not climate scientists even though they are the biggest voices in the MSM.

You have referenced studies in your previous threads and numerous studies touted by the climate talking heads have been outright debunked as I already alluded to. Name one study that was not externally funded ?



You parroted something Elon Musk said about charging stations, you did not respond to the mining, processing, production, maintenance and support of the network of electric cars all being done by fossil fuels. I have yet to see a solar powered strip mine, solar powered earth movers, etc. You are only picking and choosing small parts, not the complete process.

Once again with these talking heads. I really don't get why smart people give a shit about what talking heads say. What an utter and complete waste of time.

The body of scientific research on this topic is vast, and if you're implying that the thousands and thousands of papers that have been written are all biased to the point that they are useless, then you are either stupid, which I know you are NOT, lazy in this area, which is possible, too busy to read the actual research, which is possible, or too biased by your own narrative to think objectively about it.

I think the last possibility concerning your bias is the most influential because the conversation hasn't even started, yet. We're not talking about CO2 and it's relationship to water vapor or adaptive mechanisms for greenhouse gases in general. We're being sidetracked by a narrative and that seems like bias.

In terms of the supply chain, I remember reading some comparative studies and the emissions numbers being dramatically lower for electric, but I'll have to find them again. But in terms of common sense, isn't it reasonable that if a Semi which can haul an 80,000 pound load and be charged by a solar charging station, that all Earth movers, etc., also can?

Jason

[Verismo]

I am going to bow-out of this discussion about Tesla and wait and see...But IMHO Elton Musk may be smart in many regards, but he still is a "BS" artist like most politicians and will disappear with the dust when $Billions of dollars in taxpayer money goes South...Not faulting the man with his vision, but wonder how much government money Henry Ford and the Dodge brothers got to start up??..Regards and ride safe


I can respect that, Opus. I hope time doesn't prove you right considering the stakes in all regards, but I definitely see your point (s).

Jason

[jm21ddd15]

:shrug:
Can someone please educate me ....

How is electricity produced? Coal, Oil, CNG, Nuclear, Hydro power... etc etc etc

The fossil fuels are still being used to recharge these vehicles indirectly, are they not?

The need for additional Electric Charging Stations versus existing Gasoline Stations is only shifting the source of energy.

So now the CO2 carbon footprint is concentrated to Electricity producing plants and their neighborhoods?

What am I missing ?

+1 You got it right! Love my "Dino" powered F6

[ths61]

Once again with these talking heads. I really don't get why smart people give a shit about what talking heads say. What an utter and complete waste of time.

The body of scientific research on this topic is vast, and if you're implying that the thousands and thousands of papers that have been written are all biased to the point that they are useless, then you are either stupid, which I know you are NOT, lazy in this area, which is possible, too busy to read the actual research, which is possible, or too biased by your own narrative to think objectively about it.

I think the last possibility concerning your bias is the most influential because the conversation hasn't even started, yet. We're not talking about CO2 and it's relationship to water vapor or adaptive mechanisms for greenhouse gases in general. We're being sidetracked by a narrative and that seems like bias.

In terms of the supply chain, I remember reading some comparative studies and the emissions numbers being dramatically lower for electric, but I'll have to find them again. But in terms of common sense, isn't it reasonable that if a Semi which can haul an 80,000 pound load and be charged by a solar charging station, that all Earth movers, etc., also can?

Jason

The electric semi is currently vaporware (same as the solar charging stations). We can re-evaluate it when it is actually something tangible and actually hauls 80,000 pound loads on a daily basis and has the lifespan and range of a diesel engine.

As for earth movers, they move much more weight than semi-trailers do. Some up to 450 tons (900,000 pounds), on fossil fuels, not solar vaporware power. The point remains, electric vehicles are reliant on fossil fuels.

Still waiting on that one study that wasn't externally funded or based on externally funded studies.

[ths61]

Funny stuff (actually very sad) you can't make up:


Al Gore won the Nobel Peace Prize in 2007 for Glow-Bull-Warning (so much ice in Antarctica that ships are getting stranded).
BHO won the Nobel Peace Prize in 2009 for closing GITMO (which is still open).


I guess they are both internationally recognized for their award wining "achievements".

[Phantom]

That Musk already announced Supercharger stations will be converted to Solar, Phantom.

Jason

Jason, years ago it was determined that the amount of pollution created to fabricate a Toyota Prius was greater then the pollution created to fabricate a Hummer. At the end the technology did not reduce the CO2 footprint. The Prius has 2 engines (one gas, one electric) a gas tank and a battery system, twice the electrical wiring and copper, more fossil fuel plastic to reduce weight etc etc etc. The pollution created by manufacturing 2 systems under one hood is much greater than producing one system under the hood. Lastly where do you think Nickel and Lithium comes from ?????? They are Electric Fossil fuel sources dug from our own Earth.

Solar panels are created with very toxic chemicals and Silica (a Earth based material that requires a lot of CO2 producing energy to melt it), China has one of the largest Solar Panel industries in the world, I am willing to bet that these residual toxic chemicals are flowing down a Chinese river and into our oceans. Did you not see the Olympics in China ... the air pollution was unbelievable and that was after they had shut down 1/2 of their factories during the Olympics. CHINA doesn't care about CO2 footprints.

Some reading material about the pollution created to manufacture a Toyota Prius versus a Hummer ....

https://axleaddict.com/cars/Prius

[Broken Hand]

Where I live, we have hydroelectric power. A large, govt funded wind farm ($1 billion) was built and touted as the bestest greenie higgamajig ever. Only one problem, whenever the wind picks up, the hydroelectric dams have to scale back their generators, thus wasting spilled water. Wind turbines take first priority over dams. All this wind farm did was create a solution for a problem that didn’t exist.

[3Chief]

Where I live, we have hydroelectric power. A large, govt funded wind farm ($1 billion) was built and touted as the bestest greenie higgamajig ever. Only one problem, whenever the wind picks up, the hydroelectric dams have to scale back their generators, thus wasting spilled water. Wind turbines take first priority over dams. All this wind farm did was create a solution for a problem that didn’t exist.

Then we just need Tesla to build a battery farm to store the excess in...although others have argued against the pollutants generated from the batteries. The rub either way is you generate pollution either in the generation of the power or in the storage of it. There's even another group I haven't seen pipe up here that argues that solar/wind are worse for the overall climate than fossil fuels. It's an interesting theory on energy loss and heat but way out on the fringe of things.

Water/Wind/Solar and most renewables are nice but unable to be relied on 100% of the time. Storage for the other times becomes the issue. Fossil fuel energy generation and Nuclear power have the benefits of being capable or variable power generation. The technologies are emerging to make integration of various power generating techniques more feasible although we're still years away from municipal practicality as far as I know. Which in the end is the same with an electric vehicle. They're great for a lot of things but to expensive and impractical for most of us to use as our primary transportation. Hybrids are more efficient and practical at this point although their construction generates even more pollution and their longevity suspect. Instead of people foaming at the mouth to ban fossil fuels they should be working on ways to make them more efficient and not allow emerging technologies in those fields to be so readily suppressed.

[ths61]

Where I live, we have hydroelectric power. A large, govt funded wind farm ($1 billion) was built and touted as the bestest greenie higgamajig ever. Only one problem, whenever the wind picks up, the hydroelectric dams have to scale back their generators, thus wasting spilled water. Wind turbines take first priority over dams. All this wind farm did was create a solution for a problem that didn’t exist.

Maybe the windmills can pump the water back up into the reservoir so you can have a perpetual power and water supply ? :yikes::yikes::yikes:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePH6vkqAeB4

[VaBob]

These complaints sound pretty antiquated. You could almost substitute the same arguments from the time we went from horse drawn carriages to automobiles. "They're so dangerous. I don't trust the technology. When they crash gas is highly flammable and can explode." It sounds like garden variety resistance to change without much reason.

Jason

Just curious, how many horses crashed and burned. How many single horse and buggy fatalities were there? I know we'll never know the truth but your sarcastic response is technically true.

eta. In fact, just this past weekend in my town, a dangerous and highly combustible automobile just sent a young girl on a helicopter ride to a hospital because it struck the horse drawn carriage. Which one is more dangerous?

[motozeke]

I'm not sure I'd consider the Tesla's technology to be more sustainable considering the energy to power the vehicles comes from the same place as our current vehicles. Unless we start building nukes they are still powered by petrochemicals.

No, not actually. https://medium.com/@kkchristy/no-evs-are-not-powered-by-coal-b050d4f87136

[Heatnbeat]

No, not coal, but where does our electricity come from?
And do you think the people who want to Save the world by going to elrvtric cars will look fondly on building more powerplants? How about building the electrical trsnsmisdion lines to distribute it? The greenies will NEVER allow that
All of the energy supplied by gasoline and diesel fuel will have to come from generating stations.
Unless of course each EV comes with a unicorn that can convert it's farts to electricity.

[ths61]

Unless of course each EV comes with a unicorn that can convert it's farts to electricity.

Dat be a Work In Progress (WIP). For the cow's sake, I hope they don't smoke. :icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol:

http://www.motherjones.com/wp-content/uploads/discovery-2.gif

http://assets4.bigthink.com/system/idea_thumbnails/55108/size_1024/Picture_153.jpg?1400009654

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/04/17/article-0-1D29733200000578-945_634x421.jpg

[2wheelsforme]

For Fun:

I personally think Ford executives are smoking to much funny stuff....Some of the top brass in the buggy industry are suggesting that they will be out of business by 1919 as they are burning through way to much cash, internal combustion technology is the same for the entire auto industry and the competition will get worse for them...They have no dealer network and a lot of negatives at this point..Just because their stock is high priced does not guarantee success...There cars are nice, but the average person cannot afford one in most cases. I guess we wait and see what the future brings, but for now, me and mine will stick with a good old horse and buggy...My Tennessee Walker is fast enough to get me trouble!!....Ride safe

[Heatnbeat]

I drive a box truck 2 days a week (25,900 gvw) so I decided I'd try to get an idea about charging it if it was an EV. I drove around 5 hours and burned about 13 gal of diesel. As near as I can figure using a Current Tesla "Supercharger" it would take around 4.5 hr to charge . If they are gonna run class 8 trucks they will have to do a bit better than that.

[dadeo]

.... mainly because it is so stupid. There are no good sources of energy. They ALL have issues and not one of us here has the answers.

1. Eventually oil, gas and coal will run out. I doubt its going to happen in the next century, or maybe 1000 years. But it will become increasingly difficult to obtain all three. We don't agree on when.
2. Obtaining and burning oil, gas and coal is not good for the environment. To deny this is stupid, ask most people who have lived near, or on top of, a well or mine. But exactly how bad is open to too much uninformed debate. We have got to figure out and come to some sort of agreement on this.
3. Alternative sources of energy also have issues: Batteries, nuclear generation of electricity, hydro-power, windmills, and even solar all have problems.

We need to start weighing the costs and benefits of each technology and do so with several timelines in mind. In the short run, say in the next 10 years, we are not going to stop using fossil fuels, and the new technologies are not ready, or may have too many unforeseen consequences, (like the burning battery hazard.)

I think we've got to stop being so emotional here. We do have to subsidize new technology and smart research and development into new technology. It can pay off in the long run. The government has subsidized new tech since nearly the dawn of the industrial age: NYS and the Erie Canal, the US government and the railroads thru the west. The TVA in the 1930s and rural electrification in the 1930-1970s. These were huge projects that simply were not built by private sector until government got involved because they were so risky. The Erie Canal was built only when NYS got involved in backing the bonds. Railroads were built because the Feds gave land and cash to the builders.

We have to admit though that there were and will continue to be failures and mistakes in this process. There were certainly casualties in the 19th Century as we over invested in rails. Maybe we ought to set up some thoughtful oversight and we ought to have a better process for selecting what we invest in, but we do need to make investments in future energy, and we need to do it now, even if the payoff isn't for a century, or more.

[ths61]

STUDY: Satellites Show No Acceleration In Global Warming For 23 Years

study-satellites-show-no-acceleration-in-global-warming-for-23-years (http://dailycaller.com/2017/11/29/study-satellites-show-no-acceleration-in-global-warming-for-23-years/?utm_source=site-share)

[woody]

Tesla have just built the worlds largest battery in South Australia.

[ths61]

Tesla have just built the worlds largest battery in South Australia.

From the article(s):


"... Musk tweeted to Cannon-Brookes that an installation would cost “$250/kWh ..."
"... The average price people in the U.S. pay for electricity is about 12 cents per kilowatt-hour..."

"... bidding process to have access to an A$150 million ($115 million) renewable energy fund ..."
"... South Australia has not revealed what it's paying to Tesla in total ..."


No carbon footprint costs given for generation of batteries.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/12/tesla-beats-deadline-switches-on-gigantic-australian-battery-array/

[Verismo]

The holidays are a hellaciously busy time for me, sorry for the delay.

I'm trying to get back to your response, Ths61, but I'll admit that I'm confused by your request for a "non-externally funded" form of research. I still don't know what that means. Is the implication that any research not funded by the scientist him/herself biased to the point of being useless? Have you ever looked into how grant research in the sciences works? If I had a real idea of what you were asking, I would point to a single piece. Without knowing, it's hard to know what to point to. For example, the paper written in 2013 by Cook et. al, that included the 97% statistic and got politicized to death by both sides, studied roughly 12,000 pieces of research on climate written from 1991 to 2011. Are you asking me to comb through the funding of those 12,000 papers? I'm not being facetious. I would like to find some common ground and will do my best to oblige if I can figure out to what I'm obliging.

In the 1820's, Joseph Fourier(fourier transforms, same guy) was the first person to uncover the warming aspect of the atmosphere. He used the mathematical properties of molecular heat transfer to deduce that the Earth should be 30-40 degrees celsius colder than it was based on the Sun's output and distance to the Earth and surmised that the atmosphere, or possibly interstellar radiation must be doing something additionally to warm the Earth. He was right about the atmosphere, he just didn't have the tools to prove it, and he wasn't exactly sure what the mechanism was that was responsible for the warming.

In the 1860's, John Tyndall proved with absorption spectroscopy that water vapor, methane, CO2, etc., trapped heat, and therefore proved the mechanism that would later be called the greenhouse gas effect.

Maybe some of these older studies are good places to look for papers not associated with current political trappings? Is that the idea?

I'm all for skepticism from every direction. I think it's healthy. However, I wouldn't classify quite a bit of what I hear in objection to some of these notions as healthy skepticism, but as emotional narrative.

You called the Tesla Semis "vaporwear", and in the interim in this exchange more than 200 of them have been preordered by companies. That still leaves a lot to be desired in terms of real world testing and viability. However, the thing that I don't get with all the resistance(pun intended)is why anyone would object to heading in a more sustainable direction. The sun provides more than enough energy to power the planet. And even if there is a temporary environmental and financial cost in adapting solar/electric on a wide scale, doesn't that cost eventually balance itself out over time once more and more things become solar? It seems like a lot of old school people are looking at this like a simple algebra equation, where all the variables are fixed. But like most things in life, this is more like a calculaic equation, where the variables are in motion. Widespread adoption of solar means a much greater increase in technological advancement and a much greater decrease in cost. Think how much a computer cost and the amount of processing you could get per dollar in the 70's versus now. So, even if you did a financial and environmental cost analysis of alternative methods versus hydrocarbons, that analysis would change drastically as widespread adoption progresses. It seems that in many ways, the resistance from a lot of people in this country is the very thing that's making everything less attainable. I don't know if I could conceive of a society more capable of all that was necessary for success yet more committed to inceptioning themselves into a bad position.

And let's say that's not the case, and the environmental and financial cost will remain equally high for both solar and hydrocarbon. Don't we still have to head toward sustainable due to the limited supply of resources?

Jason

[Old N Grumpy]

:shrug:
Can someone please educate me ....

How is electricity produced? Coal, Oil, CNG, Nuclear, Hydro power... etc etc etc

The fossil fuels are still being used to recharge these vehicles indirectly, are they not?

The need for additional Electric Charging Stations versus existing Gasoline Stations is only shifting the source of energy.

So now the CO2 carbon footprint is concentrated to Electricity producing plants and their neighborhoods?

What am I missing ?

The charging stations conversion to solar.

[Heatnbeat]

The electricity will be produced by passing unicorn farts across a grid of unobtanium. Cables made from mithril will connect the grid to the vehicle battery.