Synthetic or Dino?

[Big TP]

Oil change time. I have always used synthetic motor ( any brand), but every time, I wonder if I am just wasting money.
Honda doesn't require it and even the dealership service managers don't push it. I do it because I feel it's better for the bike.
Yes, it will run cooler and maybe smoother but does it really make a difference in the end?

[lake_carl]

Make me also feel better, so worth it just for the feeling. I have been riding mini bikes to drag racing bikes often told in crazy wild ways since 1973. I has 3 different drag racing bikes over 5 years
Since 1982 only one bike I did not run synthetic and only one big engine bearing issue, yep same bike.

[opas ride]

Oil change time. I have always used synthetic motor ( any brand), but every time, I wonder if I am just wasting money.
Honda doesn't require it and even the dealership service managers don't push it. I do it because I feel it's better for the bike.
Yes, it will run cooler and maybe smoother but does it really make a difference in the end?

Oil threads/opinions can get very boring and lengthy with hundreds of different opinions....Run what you feel comfortable with and enjoy the ride......Regards

[Ewreck]

Whatever you do, stay away from that Rotella stuff...:eek:

[53driver]

oil threads/opinions can get very boring and lengthy with hundreds of different opinions....run what you feel comfortable with and enjoy the ride......regards

exactly!!!!

[Big TP]

Like I mentioned, not looking for a "long and boring debate" on brands or weights. Just an observation if in the "long run", does it really matter?
Would an engine failure occur regardless of using the spec oil that Honda recommends or "upgrading" to syn?
I assume the engine tolerances have not really changed otherwise syn would be required.
Point is there are many 1800 motors out there well over 100k miles that surely never ran syn.
Just an observation.
Maybe I should have simply asked, "which do you run and why?'

[broncsrule21]

Syn for the win!

[Ghost Rider]

I figure companies spend millions of dollars designing and engineering their product. They install a premium motor oil in the product. So why people send $20 and think it is better than what factory recommends. I just don't understand.

[Ewreck]

Someone should ask the question, of all the combustible engines ever built on planet earth, how many have failed or had drastic shorter lifespans due to oil preference. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say not enough to ever worry about it.

[Joflewbyu2]

Being that the oil filter and rear shaft lube are so easy to change, experiment a little to see which one you like best. I bought a case of Honda Full Synthetic 10-30 and K&N motorcycle oil filters. Using them now until gone. Not to sure about 10-30 down in sunny Florida. Will change to Full Synthetic 10-40 by Mobil 1 for motorcycles or Valvoline 10-40 for motorcycles as it is readily available at Wally World. Filter wise, I would stick with the OEM Honda, K&N or HiFlow. And yes, there is a difference in motorcycle oil filters from automotive oil filters. Fortunately it really doesn’t matter as the GL1800 only revs to 6k rpm.

[opas ride]

Whatever you do, stay away from that Rotella stuff...:eek:

And your reason/opinion is?????...Personal I suppose as are all oil posts......

[Frye]

My Valk had nothing but synthetic for the last 117,000 out of the 123,000 that were on her when she went to the new owner. As far as could be told when adjusting the valves there was no sludge buildup in that motor, none. I changed that oil every 5000 miles, not every 3000 like I would have with dino oil, and under the valve covers she looked clean and new.

She ran like new too, in spite of me riding that bike like I stole it for the entire 117,000 miles I put on the clock. Maybe it would have been the same with dino oil, maybe not. But, I would never risk my " B", which I intend to ride the same way or harder for the next 20 years by trying dino oil to find out.

[tenxxx]

I have read through these discussions before and the only thing I came up with is,,,,
If it feels good, Do It!

[lake_carl]

Someone should ask the question, of all the combustible engines ever built on planet earth, how many have failed or had drastic shorter lifespans due to oil preference. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say not enough to ever worry about it.

Certainly agree with your point, changing oil and filter most important. In mid 80s I had 77 corvette whose owner had always used cheap Pennzoil during the time when many said it was worse oil
I tire engine down for rebuild as I wanted more power and that engine with 160k miles was very clean inside.

[olegoat345]

AMSOIL you can double your mileage between changes, as per AMSOIL tech dept. Been using it in everything I own since back in the 1980's, never had a oil related issue.

[jm21ddd15]

'popcorn and coke' oil threads are great!

[Travelor]

'all/right' WOW!! This is the first oil thread I seen where nobody got insulted. Give it up for individual choice.

[Ewreck]

And your reason/opinion is?????...Personal I suppose as are all oil posts......

S A R C A S M. I use it. You're 100% correct in it being personal. My wife, who was a Chevron oil and lubricant rep for over 25 years and has the degrees and certifications that tells me she knows WAY more than I do laughs when I mention these oil threads. She would tell anyone if they were to ask, run whatever the hell you want if it meets spec for the application. She'd even tell you off the record you could probably dump any oil viscosity into your engine and get away with it. She would also tell you syn blends are a waste of money. If you enjoy changing oil every 3 or 4K don't blow the extra cash on synthetics. I use full synthetic, multiple brands,in all my motors and change it every 12k with 0.00 oil related problems in any motor I've ever had. I've had oil analyzed after use and it's never been close to being "bad". Anyone who runs big equipment or has a fleet of vehicles usually pays to test the oil instead of blanket changes every X amount of miles as its more cost effective. There's my reason why I do what I do.

[F6Dave]

Over the years, many Valkyrie and Goldwing owners have used diesel oils such as Shell Rotella or Mobil Delvac in their engines. However the new CK-4 diesel standard has caused some controversy. EPA concerns over cat damage have caused many manufacturers to reduce the ZDDP content in their CK-4 oils. ZDDP (zinc & phosphorus) is an important anti-wear additive that benefits motorcycles with integral transmissions. Some new oils reduced it so much that after testing showed increased wear, Ford now recommends the older CJ-4 oils for their diesel engines. So you might want to do a little research on your favorite oil as its composition may have changed.

[JackB]

I kept it simple I use Honda synthetic oil and Honda filter.
I change once a year or 8000 miles.
On my old Valkyrie's I used Shell Roltela with no problems.

[Sorcerer]

I have run Spectral synthetic blend 10/40 for many years. Last winter I won a gallon of 10/40 Bellray Dino oil. Mid summer I was due for an oil change so I used the Bellray. Before I logged 5,000 miles I was noticing a different sound to the motor. At just shy of the 5,000 mile mark I changed oil and went back to the Spectral blend. At the first start up the motor ran quieter and clutch engagement was smoother.

[DaWadd]

I decided to try some Motul full syn this fall before she went to bed. Pricey but I only change it once a year. Previously used Mobil 1 synthetic motorcycle oil.

[Big TP]

S A R C A S M. I use it. You're 100% correct in it being personal. My wife, who was a Chevron oil and lubricant rep for over 25 years and has the degrees and certifications that tells me she knows WAY more than I do laughs when I mention these oil threads. She would tell anyone if they were to ask, run whatever the hell you want if it meets spec for the application. She'd even tell you off the record you could probably dump any oil viscosity into your engine and get away with it. She would also tell you syn blends are a waste of money. If you enjoy changing oil every 3 or 4K don't blow the extra cash on synthetics. I use full synthetic, multiple brands,in all my motors and change it every 12k with 0.00 oil related problems in any motor I've ever had. I've had oil analyzed after use and it's never been close to being "bad". Anyone who runs big equipment or has a fleet of vehicles usually pays to test the oil instead of blanket changes every X amount of miles as its more cost effective. There's my reason why I do what I do.

I think she is on point.

I also recall reading in one of my car warranty books that you may use full synthetic if you wish but must still adhere to the maintenance schedule as listed. But I would say if running syn and out of warranty, maybe a couple extra thousand miles may be a reason.
On another note, whenever I ran syn on my Harleys it sounded like a car crash in the motor. With regular oil, smooth and quiet.

[broncsrule21]

I think she is on point.

I also recall reading in one of my car warranty books that you may use full synthetic if you wish but must still adhere to the maintenance schedule as listed. But I would say if running syn and out of warranty, maybe a couple extra thousand miles may be a reason.
On another note, whenever I ran syn on my Harleys it sounded like a car crash in the motor. With regular oil, smooth and quiet.


LOUD engines save lives!:cool:

[unsub]

I followed Ewreck's lead and asked my wife what she would recommend. So I changed things up this year and switched to Canola. I'll pass along the results after my next oil change.

[2wheelsforme]

Used French fry oil is low cost, recycles a product and makes your exhaust smell oh so good!

[olegoat345]

I prefer AMSOIL MC oil. Whatever you use, make sure it's MC oil. MC oil has a additive that will protect your clutch & keep it from slipping. Regular automobile / car & truck oils does not & could screw up your clutch. Serious $$$$$

[shortleg0521]

I run syn oil because on longer trips I am never sure when I will get a chance to change it.
So being able to run syn longer than Dino oil that is why for me.

[F6Dave]

I prefer AMSOIL MC oil. Whatever you use, make sure it's MC oil. MC oil has a additive that will protect your clutch & keep it from slipping. Regular automobile / car & truck oils does not & could screw up your clutch. Serious $$$$$

Some MC oils actually lack an additive that could cause problems with wet clutches. Lower viscosity (<30) oils with an 'energy conserving' label on the bottle usually contain 'moly' (molybdenum disulfide) to reduce friction. Larger quantities of this additive have been known to cause clutch slippage in some MC engines, so MC specific oils usually contain less or none at all. Interestingly, Honda's MC oils contain some moly.

The other additive to pay attention to is ZDDP, a zinc-phosphorus anti-wear compound. Due to EPA concerns about cat damage, most lower viscosity auto oils now have greatly reduced ZDDP content. This is a concern for some older engines with 'flat tappets', and could be an issue with our GL1800 engines. As I mentioned earlier, Ford saw such an increase in wear with some of the new formulas that it recommends against using them in any of their diesel engines.

From what I've read, many higher viscosity (40+) oils haven't changed as much. The current spec sheet for Mobil 1 15W-50 auto oil shows slightly higher zinc and phosphorus content than their 10W-40 MC oil. I've used Mobil 1 15W-50 auto oil exclusively in my 2 Valkyries and 2 F6Bs. In nearly 350,000 combined miles those bikes have been trouble free.

[ckwizard]

I run the Mobil 1 10W-40 for motorcycles and the OEM Honda filter and change it every 3000 miles because it makes me feel good. LOL

[F6Dave]

I run the Mobil 1 10W-40 for motorcycles and the OEM Honda filter and change it every 3000 miles because it makes me feel good. LOL

The 10W-40 is probably a better choice for our F6Bs. I think I still use the 15W-50 partly out of habit, and so I only need to stock a single grade for all my bikes, which include an old BMW airhead. I also like that Walmart sells the 5 quart jugs for about $25.

[VStarRider]

I use Mobil 1 10W40 because I want to go an entire riding season without changing it, regardless of miles (9000 miles is best season).

Honestly, I could go with any MC dino oil under those conditions.

I am willing to bet you could never change the oil in this flat-6, and it would be gurgling down the highway just fine with 100k on it.

[F6Dave]

I also used to think you could run just about any motor oil in our motorcycles without worrying about the consequences. That may no longer be the case as EPA mandates over the last several years have forced refiners to significantly reformulate many of the products we've depended on for years. Here's a little more info than I provided earlier.

What brought this to light for many was Ford's decision to recommend against the use of motor oils meeting some of the latest API standards in any of their diesel engines. It's unusual for a major manufacturer to take such a position. I'm sure the engineers behind the recommendation took some heat as there were obvious political ramifications.

Basically here's what happened. Significant increases in wear were observed when Ford tested diesel engines using oils that met both the latest API gasoline (SN) and diesel (CK-4) standards. Ford attributed the increased wear to a significant reduction in ZDDP, a phosphorus/zinc anti-wear compound found in all motor oils. So after the new standards were introduced in late 2016, Ford issued a position statement which said motor oil meeting the new CK-4/SN standards should not be used in any Ford diesel. They later approved some higher viscosity (40+) CK-4 oils for use. I was in Walmart the other day and noticed that Motorcraft diesel oils, which are formulated to meet the older CJ-4 standard, state 'CONTAINS MORE THAN 1000 PPM PHOSPHORUS FOR BETTER WEAR PROTECTION' right on the front label.

This is important information for motorcyclists. MC specific oils have usually contained fairly high levels of ZDDP. Many of us have used diesel oils (such as Shell Rotella) as a cost effective alternative because of their similar anti-wear properties. With these new API standards it probably isn't a bad idea to check out the specs of whatever oil you've been using. Even Mobil 1 4T (10W-40 MC oil) has had its ZDDP content reduced since 2016.

It's also worth mentioning that lower viscosity (30 and below) automotive oils have had drastically reduced ZDDP content for several years, and may not be a good choice for motorcycle engines.

[VStarRider]

https://mobiloil.com/~/media/amer/us/pvl/files/pdfs/mobil-1-oil-product-specs-guide.pdf

4T still has 1000 ppm for phosphorus, 1200 for zinc.

I notice a lot of the high mileage formulas have reduced zinc/phosphorus compounds. I wonder if the oil engineers have replaced ZDDP with another, more environmentally friendly compound that accomplishes the same goal.

I am not worried about the reduction in ZDDP.

Another notice: Mobil 1 now has a OW-16 formula for advanced fuel economy.. That is incredible. My pee is thicker, and I drink lots of water.

[53driver]

I had to look for awhile to find Mobil 1 20W-50 for Saorla today....
Just not as popular anymore.

[ReserveBum]

its obvious we are not the only group deliberating the details of oils for our machines. A quick search turned up a bunch of car/truck/bike forums that are having the same discussion. I pulled this post off of one of those sites....www.bobistheoilguy.com. The poster is working at Shell


Re: ZDDP level of Rotella CK4? [Re: bubbatime] #4464048 07/19/17 01:07 PM
ChrisGuerrero Offline
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 86
Houston, TX
You can use our Rotella T4 15W-40 engine oil or Rotella T6 5W-40 (synthetic, good for high and low temperatures). These two grades meet the JASO MA specifications and are safe for wet clutches. Also the zinc is 1200 ppm in both. Thanks for your interest in Shell products!

[Vf6cruiser]

There is the story of the sales rep in the deep South with a company Corolla. He drove it 5 days a week and at every oil change interval he pestered the owner to get it changed, which he ignored. Finally at 89,000 miles the car was sold. It was a small town. 5 years later he saw the car still running around town.

[opas ride]

I knew a guy a few years ago that had an old Honda Civic, 2001/2 I think, that had over 100,000 miles on it..He claimed that the oil had never been changed during the entire time he owned it???...BTW, he has since passed away and I have no idea what happened to the car....Regards and ride safe

[Joflewbyu2]

There are many instances where someone has neglected oil change intervals and have not had an issue. Oil overheats and turn to fudge like varnish and sticks to the parts inside. Problems arise after someone starts oil changes and the new oil additives start to clean and break away the sludge which clogs the passages and causes a death due to oil starvation. Seen this many times after someone gets their new used vehicle and starts maintenance. Key is to keep it clean from the start to avoid problems.

[53driver]

I cannot think of a worse fate for a machine - to not be maintained.

[tenxxx]

I run Motor Coat or Duralube in my cages. But the B has a tendency to come out of gear once in a while.
I don't want to make it any easier for the tranny to act up. So synthetic will have to do.
Every little bit helps.

[jm21ddd15]

Everyone has their own choice of oil, and their personal reasons to use what they do. The point being, as far as I know, I've never heard of a F6B failing because of "bad choice of oil". So, apparently, they all work.

[F6Dave]

https://mobiloil.com/~/media/amer/us/pvl/files/pdfs/mobil-1-oil-product-specs-guide.pdf

I wonder if the oil engineers have replaced ZDDP with another, more environmentally friendly compound that accomplishes the same goal.

From what I've read, Borates are showing up as a replacement for ZDDP.

BTW, I kept a copy of that Mobil 1 comparison data sheet from early 2016. I compared it to the current version to see which oils had their ZDDP content reduced.

[opas ride]

Everyone has their own choice of oil, and their personal reasons to use what they do. The point being, as far as I know, I've never heard of a F6B failing because of "bad choice of oil". So, apparently, they all work.

++1..Oil threads are a "hoot" and mostly a waste of time, but fun to read, some of them.....Run what the manual suggests and forget all the other "BS" about what oil has this and what oil has that....As you said, apparently they all work in the end....Most of us could spend more time on other things that really matter!!!...Regards

[VStarRider]

Agree, but I do enjoy reading them and every now and then pick up a nugget of interesting information.

There is a lot of BS out there from people who have no idea what they are talking about in these oil threads, here and elsewhere. Subarus from 2011-2017 are known for being oil burners due to weak rings and a coating that lines the cylinder walls, in attempts to increase fuel efficiency. I have a Forester with 67,000 on it and it uses a quart every 2500 miles. On the Forester forum, there is one of these people saying that oil consumption is due to people not changing the synthetic oil enough (7000 is recommended)...this despite a well-documented class action lawsuit that clearly identifies the piston rings and cylinder coating for the problem.

For the record, the oil consumption does not bother me. Pop the hood every six weeks, through a quart in. Subaru will even pay for the oil if I feel like filling out the forms and sending in receipts!

A lot of non-car Subaru owners are flipping out though, thinking it is the end of the world.

[tenxxx]

When I was just starting to drive, I changed oil when my dad yelled at me to do so.
So I told him I would change oil when he did his.
We changed oil once a year just before summer.
He could get 2,00,000 before driving it to the junk yard.
I wrecked and totaled mine every 2 years.

[F6Dave]

Agree, but I do enjoy reading them and every now and then pick up a nugget of interesting information.

There is a lot of BS out there from people who have no idea what they are talking about in these oil threads, here and elsewhere. Subarus from 2011-2017 are known for being oil burners due to weak rings and a coating that lines the cylinder walls, in attempts to increase fuel efficiency. I have a Forester with 67,000 on it and it uses a quart every 2500 miles. On the Forester forum, there is one of these people saying that oil consumption is due to people not changing the synthetic oil enough (7000 is recommended)...this despite a well-documented class action lawsuit that clearly identifies the piston rings and cylinder coating for the problem.

For the record, the oil consumption does not bother me. Pop the hood every six weeks, through a quart in. Subaru will even pay for the oil if I feel like filling out the forms and sending in receipts!

A lot of non-car Subaru owners are flipping out though, thinking it is the end of the world.

This is proof that you can learn from these threads! I had a friend that bought a new Outback around 2011. It used oil like crazy, about a quart in 1,500 miles. At at the time nobody knew why, and the dealer just told him it was normal without explaining why. It really irritated him, and after a few years he got so fed up that he traded it. I'm going to pass your post on to him.

I agree much of the info on these threads is inaccurate, but you can learn to filter that out pretty easily. Some sources, like BobIsTheOilGuy.com, have loads of useful information. There are also some very knowledgeable guys over on the old Valkyrie (VRCC) board. That's where I first heard of Ford's tests of the new CK-4 oils. It's also where I learned about the problems with K&N air filters.

[VStarRider]

This is proof that you can learn from these threads! I had a friend that bought a new Outback around 2011. It used oil like crazy, about a quart in 1,500 miles. At at the time nobody knew why, and the dealer just told him it was normal without explaining why. It really irritated him, and after a few years he got so fed up that he traded it. I'm going to pass your post on to him.

I agree much of the info on these threads is inaccurate, but you can learn to filter that out pretty easily. Some sources, like BobIsTheOilGuy.com, have loads of useful information. There are also some very knowledgeable guys over on the old Valkyrie (VRCC) board. That's where I first heard of Ford's tests of the new CK-4 oils. It's also where I learned about the problems with K&N air filters.

Dave, it does not appear that most 2011 Outbacks were impacted by oil consumption. That being said, my neighbor has a 2012, and his uses oil just not at the rate mine does. I just tell everyone I own a two-stroke Subie. :p

Here is some basic information on the oil consumption lawsuit; your buddy may be interested:

https://www.cars.com/articles/2011-15-subaru-oil-consumption-update-1420683845519/

Ironically, I think my Forester was traded in for a RAV4 for the same reason!

I have had the oil consumption test done, and have qualified for the 8 year/100k warranty on oil consumption. However, after discussing it with several mechanic friends, I have chosen not to have some dealership monkey tear my flat-4 apart to replace half the motor. Nooooo thank you. There are plenty of horror stories out there about this whole event turning into a shitshow. Subaru has ended up replacing several engines because the dealers cannot do the job right. I will just keep adding oil at a rate that I consider to be reasonable. Like I said, I really do not care, but I know I am in the minority.

[VStarRider]

Maybe I can find a used Honda flat-6 from a Wing in a scrapyard and put that in my Subaru?!? That would be awesome ... though a tad underpowered. Current engine in Subie makes 170 hp, and its no speed demon.

[unsub]

I have chosen not to have some dealership monkey tear my flat-4 apart to replace half the motor. Nooooo thank you. There are plenty of horror stories out there about this whole event turning into a shitshow. Subaru has ended up replacing several engines because the dealers cannot do the job right. I will just keep adding oil at a rate that I consider to be reasonable. Like I said, I really do not care, but I know I am in the minority.

I don't have any skin in the Subaru game but I'd be rooting for that to happen to me.

[F6Dave]

Dave, it does not appear that most 2011 Outbacks were impacted by oil consumption. That being said, my neighbor has a 2012, and his uses oil just not at the rate mine does. I just tell everyone I own a two-stroke Subie. :p

Here is some basic information on the oil consumption lawsuit; your buddy may be interested:

https://www.cars.com/articles/2011-15-subaru-oil-consumption-update-1420683845519/

Ironically, I think my Forester was traded in for a RAV4 for the same reason!

I have had the oil consumption test done, and have qualified for the 8 year/100k warranty on oil consumption. However, after discussing it with several mechanic friends, I have chosen not to have some dealership monkey tear my flat-4 apart to replace half the motor. Nooooo thank you. There are plenty of horror stories out there about this whole event turning into a shitshow. Subaru has ended up replacing several engines because the dealers cannot do the job right. I will just keep adding oil at a rate that I consider to be reasonable. Like I said, I really do not care, but I know I am in the minority.

His Outback had the 3.6L H-6 engine, which wasn't listed in that bulletin. He still had a ridiculous level of oil consumption. You'd think the issue might exist in other engines if they were designed by the same engineers.

Interestingly, this circles back to the ZDDP issue. The concern was that in older engines with higher oil consumption, more of the phosphorus in ZDDP would make its way into the exhaust and poison the catalyst prematurely. With such high oil consumption on low mileage engines, I'd think Subaru would be concerned about this issue since they have to warranty the cats through 100,000 miles.

[VStarRider]

Strange. That is the first report of excessive oil consumption I have heard from the 3.6 flat-6. Maybe because those engines only ended up in about 10% of Outbacks? Not sure. My neighbor's Out-B has the 2.5 flat-4, but it is a slightly different version than the one used in the Foresters.