Harley in big financial trouble

[opas ride]

Interesting article today on the Internet about HD..Seems these "infamous millenials" in today's world,are not buying motorcycles for the so-called "image" or as a hobby and other past reasons....Motorcycles are for transportation only and not popular among these younger folks...The article is titled that this last generation will put Harley out of business!!!!....Guess these "spoiled brats" are in for a big surprise when mommy and daddy quit paying all their bills and they have to make it the real world on their own!!!....Regards and ride safe

[olegoat345]

These days they'll live w/ mom & dad into their 30's.
I was 19 when I got home Sunday morning (hung over), just when Mom & Dad were leaving for church. Dad said, "are you coming or going?" "Coming" I said. Dad said, "Pack your stuff, you're leaving!"...… I was gone when they got back from church. Moved back in a few years later, for 3-4 months after my hitch in the Army. Been on my own since. That was a long, long time ago.

[opas ride]

Since I saw the article on the Internet about Harley's issues, I wonder if this new generation of "spoiled brats" supported by mommy and daddy, and socialist attitudes, will effect Honda Goldwing sales in the future??..I know the local Indian Dealer, owned by Roger Penske, in my area closed the doors due to poor sales!!!...Does not look good for large bikes in the future....JMHO

[Draxsr]

Yeah, unless you can leave it in the middle of a sidewalk, they don't want anything to do with it.

[DaWadd]

I asked my son and his friends(early 20's) why none of them own or ride a motorcycle ? To be honest I wasn't surprised that they all agreed it's too dangerous on the roads on two wheels. I think the hobby is getting a bit expensive with bikes in the 30 to 40 thousand range.

[TerryDavid]

Harley has always been broke
When the late Vaugn Beals back in the 80's brought Harley it was Broke
But with his merry men he created HOG
That way he got heaps of rich people to buy Harleys and play dress up like the people that Harley has always hated
That way the aftermarket thing kept harley alive?
In Vaughn Beals words?
Not everyone can aford a Harley Davidson
But everyone can afford a T-Shirt
Guess no one wears T-Shirts anymore;):cool:

[VStarRider]

Every generation loves to shake their heads at younger generations. My father said me and my friends were lazy and did not care about getting ahead in this world. His father told him and his friends that they were a bunch of pot smoking, bandana wearing wannabe hippies who were doomed. Each generation also fears the next generation's ability to pay for their social security.

Well, most of us turned out fine, and so will these guys. Even if spoiled, the world will whip most of them into shape, just it did to me when my mom stopped doing my laundry and paying for my car insurance at age 23.

"The kids will be alright".

That being said, recreational vehicles tend to wax and wane. Didn't the motorcycle industry fear going out of business 30-40 years ago? It will always be around, manufacturers will adjust. If it goes away, it will go away due to market forces, which can be harsh.

[wjduke]

Every generation loves to shake their heads at younger generations. My father said me and my friends were lazy and did not care about getting ahead in this world. His father told him and his friends that they were a bunch of pot smoking, bandana wearing wannabe hippies who were doomed. Each generation also fears the next generation's ability to pay for their social security.

Well, most of us turned out fine, and so will these guys. Even if spoiled, the world will whip most of them into shape, just it did to me when my mom stopped doing my laundry and paying for my car insurance at age 23.

"The kids will be alright".

That being said, recreational vehicles tend to wax and wane. Didn't the motorcycle industry fear going out of business 30-40 years ago? It will always be around, manufacturers will adjust. If it goes away, it will go away due to market forces, which can be harsh.

I was one of those who look at the kids today and said the same thing about mommy and daddy not being around. Then, as you just said here, I figure they'll survive somehow. We weren't perfect back when, but I feel that we had better work ethic. Time will tell.

[Cali261]

Every generation loves to shake their heads at younger generations. My father said me and my friends were lazy and did not care about getting ahead in this world. His father told him and his friends that they were a bunch of pot smoking, bandana wearing wannabe hippies who were doomed. Each generation also fears the next generation's ability to pay for their social security.

Well, most of us turned out fine, and so will these guys. Even if spoiled, the world will whip most of them into shape, just it did to me when my mom stopped doing my laundry and paying for my car insurance at age 23.

"The kids will be alright".

That being said, recreational vehicles tend to wax and wane. Didn't the motorcycle industry fear going out of business 30-40 years ago? It will always be around, manufacturers will adjust. If it goes away, it will go away due to market forces, which can be harsh.

I hope you are right that everything “will be alright”. It feels different this time though. The progressives, the hate for what the flag stands for, the hate for anyone that does not agree with the liberal point of view just scares me. It feels like the bigger threat might be here at home from the liberals and the media then from other countries. I hope I’m wrong on this one.

[Draxsr]

I hope you are right that everything “will be alright”. It feels different this time though. The progressives, the hate for what the flag stands for, the hate for anyone that does not agree with the liberal point of view just scares me. It feels like the bigger threat might be here at home from the liberals and the media then from other countries. I hope I’m wrong on this one.

You're not.

[opas ride]

Not to turn this into a political thread, but at 79 years old, I have seen this great country go from bad to worse and in my opinion, we are headed for a very uncertain future with these "radical left wing idiots" who don't know their ass from a "hot rock". If socialism is such a great idea to them they should all move to corrupt countries that are under this "bullshit" and see how well it does not work!!....Regards

[tenxxx]

This time we have a president who will do something to stop the socialist movement.
Thats why they are going nuts. They had a free ride till now.
They have been brain washing our kids for 40 years. And we just sat back and let them.
A lot of our generational stuff will fall by the way side. But hopefully new tech will replace it.
I want a hover bike.
The F6Hb !!

[F6Dave]

This has been coming for years. Since the late 60s, the motorcycle industry's fortunes have depended heavily on the baby boomer generation. Business in the 70s was great, then cooled in the 80s as boomers had families. Harley didn't fare well in those days because affordable, faster bikes from Japan were so popular.

When the boomers reentered the market, they bought bikes aimed at older riders, so Harley and BMW saw sales numbers like they'd never seen before. But now these old riders are retiring, riding less, or not at all. Harley sales are falling, and I'm sure others will too. When I go to a rally and a guy pushing 40 gets the 'youngest rider' award, I know the industry has big problems ahead! I'm pleasantly surprised we still have so many great bikes to choose from, but we may someday look back on these days as a 'golden age'.

[Travelor]

I know Harley has financial issues, but BMW had a very good year in 2018. Sales are up already this year. My local Honda dealer is pushing me hard to trade up to the new "F6B", he has 2018 models on the floor with a 2,000 (I think) factory incentive. I think Honda miscalculated with the new Wing - there was a lot of pent up demand that didn't materialize into sales when the new model was introduced. Just doesn't live up to the expectations.

[f6byellow]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/harley-davidson-us-motorcycle-sales-161322886.html

[F6Dave]

These numbers tell a lot of the story. The median age of motorcycle riders in the USA:

1990: 32
2009: 40
2017: 47

Median age of Sturgis attendees in 2012: 58!

[opas ride]

These numbers tell a lot of the story. The median age of motorcycle riders in the USA:

1990: 32
2009: 40
2017: 47

Median age of Sturgis attendees in 2012: 58!

Good observation and most likely one of the main factors of the reduced sales of larger bikes...Also, in my opinion, bikes as well as cars, have become so "0ver Priced" in an effort to keep CEO's salaries at ridiculous levels and the Board of Directors happy that younger and older folks are spending money on other things...Regards

[SimonTemplar]

......Dad said, "are you coming or going?" "Coming" I said. Dad said, "Pack your stuff, you're leaving!"...… I was gone when they got back from church. Moved back in a few years later, for 3-4 months after my hitch in the Army. Been on my own since. That was a long, long time ago.


Yes...my father threw me out of the house when I was 19, too. I had been in Canada (on my nice shiny 1970 Triumph, actually) for four weeks and when I got home, my father said "Where the hell have you been for the past month?"

Now, you have to realise that I'd spoken to him the day that I left and had told him where I was headed. He said it sounded like fun and had even given me two hundred dollars for gas/food money 'just in case'. Of course....he was drunk off his ass at the time. (But then, he often was in those days.) Now, four weeks later, apparently after one of his famous cold turkey dry-outs....he was stone cold sober and had compleatly forgotten everything and didn't even remember talking to me that day.

And on top of it, as he'd come up short a couple hundred bucks about that time, he had decided I had stolen it from his wallet when he wasn't looking. Therefore....if I was going to steal money from him and disappear with it for weeks on end without a word.....then I didn't need to be living there any longer.

That was over 40 years ago. I haven't lived there since. (To be fair, he passed away a bit more than 10 years later. So, that made it easier.)




....sT

[VStarRider]

Good observation and most likely one of the main factors of the reduced sales of larger bikes...Also, in my opinion, bikes as well as cars, have become so "0ver Priced" in an effort to keep CEO's salaries at ridiculous levels and the Board of Directors happy that younger and older folks are spending money on other things...Regards

...but, are they? Let's use the number $25,000 in 2019 as the price one pays for a new Wing. Accounting for inflation, that's equivalent to $11,800 in 1988. What did a new Wing cost in 1988?

[jm21ddd15]

The new generation, the "entitlement" generation, thinks that after being taught in most all schools, that everything should be handed to them, they think it's a "right", to graduate with no college debt, and have a new house, with new furniture, a new car for each house member, free health care, etc. Then, all of a sudden, they find out that they have to pay for that stuff. Well, no $$$ for motorcycles. I have no pity for them.

[tenxxx]

There more level headed kids than you think. You only hear about the crazies because they are "news worthy", and they fit the agenda.
Traffic #1 and cost is what I hear from my younger ones. Plus they grew up on a big tv diet.
I taught my kids respect, but you don't see much of it on tv.
Society goes through changes, you cant stop it.
We went from horses to cars to bikes and planes.
Something BIG is coming and I don't think bikes will be a thing in the next generation.
But I won't be a thing either. I'll just be a thought in my great grandsons head,,,, if they still have heads then??

[F6Dave]

...but, are they? Let's use the number $25,000 in 2019 as the price one pays for a new Wing. Accounting for inflation, that's equivalent to $11,800 in 1988. What did a new Wing cost in 1988?

You're probably right. I read somewhere that if you calculate the price of a new car in hours of labor, using the average wage for a U.S. worker, it takes less work to buy a car than it did a few decades ago. Add to that far better mileage, performance, and reliability, and cars today are a better deal than ever. The same likely applies to motorcycles.

It's the same with fuel prices. In real dollars, gasoline is about as cheap today as it's ever been.

[tenxxx]

Don't forget about the college debt they come out with. Takes decades to pay it off.

[Draxsr]

Don't forget about the college debt they come out with. Takes decades to pay it off.

But it doesn't HAVE to. Poor decisions spur many of those with huge debt. Taking your gen-eds at a local community college as opposed to the 4-year university is a great way to save money. Not like those gen-eds you take in your first 2 years are much different from school-to-school. In my experience, many times, those with mass debt didn't know what they wanted to do when they went into college and 'experimented', changing majors like I change socks.

The armed forces are still hiring and provide great educational benefits. Lastly, not everyone's meant for the ivory. Trade schools can prepare you for a great career. Check out Mike Rowe Works for examples. I'd love to see the folks that work on my F6B be treated, taught, and experienced like those Porche maintenance apprentices I used to drink with over in Germany, instead of some junior that went to a current highschool that doesn't even include a shop-class.

[pdxstriper]

Every generation loves to shake their heads at younger generations. My father said me and my friends were lazy and did not care about getting ahead in this world. His father told him and his friends that they were a bunch of pot smoking, bandana wearing wannabe hippies who were doomed. Each generation also fears the next generation's ability to pay for their social security.

Well, most of us turned out fine, and so will these guys. Even if spoiled, the world will whip most of them into shape, just it did to me when my mom stopped doing my laundry and paying for my car insurance at age 23.

"The kids will be alright".

That being said, recreational vehicles tend to wax and wane. Didn't the motorcycle industry fear going out of business 30-40 years ago? It will always be around, manufacturers will adjust. If it goes away, it will go away due to market forces, which can be harsh.

Student loans are a factor affecting lots of recreational products. These loans often run 10 years or more, and soak up discretionary funds that could otherwise go to bikes, boats, etc.

[Fourks]

We all sound like a bunch of old farts complaining about millenials. They all seem like great kids to me, with financial burdens we never had when we were young. Between high rents, low pay, paying off student loans, and the added cost of the digital age. Mostly the reason they are all so broke. Seems to me the previous generation is the one with entitlement issues.

[53driver]

We all sound like a bunch of old farts complaining about millenials. They all seem like great kids to me, with financial burdens we never had when we were young. Between high rents, low pay, paying off student loans, and the added cost of the digital age. Mostly the reason they are all so broke. Seems to me the previous generation is the one with entitlement issues.

Maybe....but....
I've got some "first-hand knowledge" of college students at University of West Florida.
What will and will not do.
What they will and will not eat.
What they will purchase and then say they are broke.

Example: I have a phone plan with TMobil where I have 4 phones, unlimited data & texts, free CONUS calls. $100/month. No, there are no free phone upgrades. You buy a phone and you use it.
Their response: "That's just silly, I NEED the free upgrades."

Example: Seminar lecture. Free Firehouse turkey subs, chips & cookies.
They ate the cookies, brought in $5 coffee from wherever, wouldn't touch the subs because "I don't like Firehouse subs, I only eat Mike's Famous."
And then complain, again, they are broke.

I'm not seeing things from their perspective. At all.
Yes, they are broke, but it's because they have made continuously poor choices.
They do not know how to cook from raw materials - huge $$$$ savings there.
They do not know how to manage and save money.
They do not repair - they discard or get a "free" upgrade.

There's a popular radio commercial that starts out with "If you have credit card debt of more than $10,000, it may not be your fault!" Seriously???? Get real.

You make your bed; you sleep in it.
Freedom of choice comes with consequences.
"Play stupid games; win stupid prizes."
And the games are just getting sillier....

I need more Irish Creme in my coffee apparently.

[Fourks]

Maybe....but....
I've got some "first-hand knowledge" of college students at University of West Florida.
What will and will not do.
What they will and will not eat.
What they will purchase and then say they are broke.


Example: I have a phone plan with TMobil where I have 4 phones, unlimited data & texts, free CONUS calls. $100/month. No, there are no free phone upgrades. You buy a phone and you use it.
Their response: "That's just silly, I NEED the free upgrades."

Example: Seminar lecture. Free Firehouse turkey subs, chips & cookies.
They ate the cookies, brought in $5 coffee from wherever, wouldn't touch the subs because "I don't like Firehouse subs, I only eat Mike's Famous."
And then complain, again, they are broke.

I'm not seeing things from their perspective. At all.
Yes, they are broke, but it's because they have made continuously poor choices.
They do not know how to cook from raw materials - huge $$$$ savings there.
They do not know how to manage and save money.
They do not repair - they discard or get a "free" upgrade.

There's a popular radio commercial that starts out with "If you have credit card debt of more than $10,000, it may not be your fault!" Seriously???? Get real.

You make your bed; you sleep in it.
Freedom of choice comes with consequences.
"Play stupid games; win stupid prizes."
And the games are just getting sillier....

I need more Irish Creme in my coffee apparently.

Well, What are you doing with those college kids? I sent one to college and she came back ruined. The one that stayed home and got a job is doing much better and already owns a home and a good steady job. I mostly caulk it up to immaturity, and all those ideas they are teaching our kids.:039: I just think we should be supportive of the next gen, they have the weight of the world on their shoulders.

[53driver]

Well, What are you doing with those college kids? I sent one to college and she came back ruined. The one that stayed home and got a job is doing much better and already owns a home and a good steady job. I mostly caulk it up to immaturity, and all those ideas they are teaching our kids.:039: I just think we should be supportive of the next gen, they have the weight of the world on their shoulders.

Wife is in Grad school - again. She teaches grad school also. She sees all this.
Did you know a Master's program "Full-Load" is only SIX credit hours a semester??? SIX??? This is why these kids are dying. Too much time on their hands and too many semesters ($$$$) to complete their 'education.'

Both my daughters went to good colleges, (Rensselaer Poly and Penn State) both got dual majors and dual minors in a 4 year program, and worked part time. Upon graduation, they were both debt free (scholarships, job, and work-study) and outright owners of their cars (I helped a bit here) and had money in their checking accounts. Both are currently working, doing well, supporting themselves. The elder is in IT and making more money than I ever did. The younger is in education and not making as much but she's happy. Neither have ever asked to move home nor asked for a "grant" - but they know if there's an issue, we'll work something out.

Kids (and people in general) will "push the envelop" and try and do as little as possible. "If the minimum wasn't good enough, it wouldn't be the minimum, right?"
Setting reasonably high expectations and HOLDING THEM ACCOUNTABLE is where parents - in general - are failing miserably these days.
Now granted, someone with an IQ of 70 is not going to do what my kids did, and they are probably never going to have the disposable income to buy a $35,000 motorcycle and we probably wouldn't want them on a motorcycle in the first place.
My younger daughter, after her first few days at PSU, called home and said "Thank you for not raising me like 6 year old." She was amazed and disgusted at the girls who HAD to talk to mommy several times a day for hours at a time. I don't want that dependency on a bike either.

Fourks - they may HAVE the weight of the world on their shoulders, but they are seriously ill equipped to deal with it.
6207

I will support those who want to make a difference, make good choices, and not play silly games.
I will NOT support what I term "willful ignorance" stemming from emotional trials & tribulations.

[BIGLRY]

Fourks - they may HAVE the weight of the world on their shoulders, but they are seriously ill equipped to deal with it.
6207

I will support those who want to make a difference, make good choices, and not play silly games.
I will NOT support what I term "willful ignorance" stemming from emotional trials & tribulations.
http://aks-blog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/1-295x300.png

[Fourks]

Sounds like you raised some great kids! I agree with HOLDING THEM ACCOUNTABLE and that is lacking in our society and our parenting. My Daughter calls me the Tiger Dad so at least she's feeling the pressure. I do worry that they are seriously ill equipped if I was being totally honest. Suggesting that you need an above average IQ to ride a F6B sounds a bit elitist to me. I have an average IQ and turn wrenches for a living, and I do just fine on a bike. I have owned my own business most of my life, and make good money.

[53driver]

Sounds like you raised some great kids! I agree with HOLDING THEM ACCOUNTABLE and that is lacking in our society and our parenting. My Daughter calls me the Tiger Dad so at least she's feeling the pressure. I do worry that they are seriously ill equipped if I was being totally honest. Suggesting that you need an above average IQ to ride a F6B sounds a bit elitist to me. I have an average IQ and turn wrenches for a living, and I do just fine on a bike. I have owned my own business most of my life, and make good money.

No sir, not at all. Please no offense!

And I don't think I wrote that one needed an "above average IQ to ride a F6B"
I wrote:
"Now granted, someone with an IQ of 70 is not going to do what my kids did, and they are probably never going to have the disposable income to buy a $35,000 motorcycle and we probably wouldn't want them on a motorcycle in the first place."

Quick explanation:
Average is 100. If you are running your own business and have managed to keep the IRS out of your life, I would say you are WELL above average!
A 70 IQ is two standard deviations below "average" indicating a mind that cannot perceive and react - quickly or at all - to situations. The Cognitive Classification is "Very Dull" - the lowest one.

Again, I am not suggesting it takes above average intelligence to operate a motorcycle. Let's keep things in context here.
Cheers,
Steve

[F6Dave]

Don't forget about the college debt they come out with. Takes decades to pay it off.

That must be why they vote for candidates promising free college, since Uncle Sam would probably write off all student loans if such legislation passed. This could be what they had in mind when they passed Obamacare. Buried in that legislation was a provision for the government to take over all student loans.

[SimonTemplar]

We all sound like a bunch of old farts complaining about millenials. They all seem like great kids to me, with financial burdens we never had when we were young. Between high rents, low pay, paying off student loans, and the added cost of the digital age. Mostly the reason they are all so broke. Seems to me the previous generation is the one with entitlement issues.


Whoa there! I didn't even have time to duck to miss that one. My head is still spinning from it. Can't decide whether to laugh, or pity someone.

Great kids with no entitlement issues? New and improved financial burdens?

Can't EVEN begin to decide what 'the added cost of the digital age' might be. No, I mean...I really can't! Unless you are suggesting that we now need to molly coddle and pity them because they just HAVE to have a new iPhone every year?

No doubt, along with that new iPhone they'll also need an upgraded iPad and MacBook to go with it. I mean if they actually used pen and theme pads to take class notes, surely they'd get laughed out of class, now wouldn't they? THEN they'd waste an entire afternoon wadded up in a fetal position at the 'Safe Space' across campus! And THAT would mean they'd be late for pulling down all the statues on Front Campus.

But you're right, they do have financial burdens different than what me and mine had to endure. My brother and I both had huge student loans to pay off....he moreso than I. Of course, neither of us spent four years on 'Gender Studies', 'Eighth Century Slovak Literature', or 'Religious Interpretive Dance' degrees. When I finished my second Engineering degree and my brother finished 13 years leading up to a Doctorate from MIT....we were eventually ABLE to find employment. And that DOES make paying off that 'financial burden' much easier than hipsters have it. The Public Dole along with food stamps does indeed make it difficult to pay off those degrees, you're right.

And I agree that they have MUCH higher rents than I had at that age. Mostly because I spent a couple years living on a cot in the back of an aircraft hangar at an airport where I was working in the far north. And that was because I couldn't afford high rents either. Yet....I found a way. And it also ultimately helped in furthering my career field too (must be something to do with all those entitlement issues I had/have.)

Contrary to the stated implication.....these kids have not invented low pay. And they are no more put-upon than any other generation was. Except perhaps for the ones that had to go the pacific rim, western Europe, or Southeast Asia and get shot or dismembered. They might have had it a little rougher.

EVERY kid gets low pay at that age.....its the way the world works (unless, of course, you happen to have been born on a trust fund that Daddy and his lawyer threw together one afternoon between the 7th green and the 8th tee.) I was damned near 30 before my Line 32 broke the 5-digit barrier.

And we did ALL of this without ever once showing up for class with a $6-10 cup of coffee in our hands. We didn't demand a free life or even 'free upgrades' from Comrade Bernie. We didn't turn our noses up at 25-cent boxes of Kraft Mac & Cheese because the pasta wasn't good enough for artisan-only palates.

No...the reason they are so broke is the same reason WE were so broke. Except they mostly still have not grasped that the only way to change their lot is to get a job. And that 'Participation Trophies' ended with public middle schools.


But, hey....I'm just an old fart.




.....sT

[tenxxx]

Make your bed and sleep in it.
Were all to blame, if you want to blame someone.
Things change.

[2wheelsforme]

The kids I know and have known are doing a great job at being good citizens.

[jmdaniel]

Whoa there! I didn't even have time to duck to miss that one. My head is still spinning from it. Can't decide whether to laugh, or pity someone.

Great kids with no entitlement issues? New and improved financial burdens?

Can't EVEN begin to decide what 'the added cost of the digital age' might be. No, I mean...I really can't! Unless you are suggesting that we now need to molly coddle and pity them because they just HAVE to have a new iPhone every year?

No doubt, along with that new iPhone they'll also need an upgraded iPad and MacBook to go with it. I mean if they actually used pen and theme pads to take class notes, surely they'd get laughed out of class, now wouldn't they? THEN they'd waste an entire afternoon wadded up in a fetal position at the 'Safe Space' across campus! And THAT would mean they'd be late for pulling down all the statues on Front Campus.

But you're right, they do have financial burdens different than what me and mine had to endure. My brother and I both had huge student loans to pay off....he moreso than I. Of course, neither of us spent four years on 'Gender Studies', 'Eighth Century Slovak Literature', or 'Religious Interpretive Dance' degrees. When I finished my second Engineering degree and my brother finished 13 years leading up to a Doctorate from MIT....we were eventually ABLE to find employment. And that DOES make paying off that 'financial burden' much easier than hipsters have it. The Public Dole along with food stamps does indeed make it difficult to pay off those degrees, you're right.

And I agree that they have MUCH higher rents than I had at that age. Mostly because I spent a couple years living on a cot in the back of an aircraft hangar at an airport where I was working in the far north. And that was because I couldn't afford high rents either. Yet....I found a way. And it also ultimately helped in furthering my career field too (must be something to do with all those entitlement issues I had/have.)

Contrary to the stated implication.....these kids have not invented low pay. And they are no more put-upon than any other generation was. Except perhaps for the ones that had to go the pacific rim, western Europe, or Southeast Asia and get shot or dismembered. They might have had it a little rougher.

EVERY kid gets low pay at that age.....its the way the world works (unless, of course, you happen to have been born on a trust fund that Daddy and his lawyer threw together one afternoon between the 7th green and the 8th tee.) I was damned near 30 before my Line 32 broke the 5-digit barrier.

And we did ALL of this without ever once showing up for class with a $6-10 cup of coffee in our hands. We didn't demand a free life or even 'free upgrades' from Comrade Bernie. We didn't turn our noses up at 25-cent boxes of Kraft Mac & Cheese because the pasta wasn't good enough for artisan-only palates.

No...the reason they are so broke is the same reason WE were so broke. Except they mostly still have not grasped that the only way to change their lot is to get a job. And that 'Participation Trophies' ended with public middle schools.


But, hey....I'm just an old fart.




.....sT

Pretty much the same here, except the Kraft Mac and Cheese was 3/$1, so the price must have gone up. My story:

- Kicked out of the house 3 days after high school graduation, by my (single) mom, and I deserved every bit of it. Been paying for the roof over my head for almost 40 years now.
- After working at a tool company, framing houses, and installing cable TV, (the I want my MTV era), decided I should get a college degree. The brains were always there, the maturity took awhile to catch up.
- Obviously with no parental support, I needed to find a way to pay for college, so I reached out to an uncle; Sam was his name, and he offered a financial hand, as long as I toted an M16 first. Best decision I have ever made, and #2 isn't even close...
- Obtained 4 year degree in 4 years, (shocker!), supplementing Army educational benefits with part time work, full time in the summers. Kinda funny how paying 100% of the education costs and living expenses will make every class count. Graduated as one of the Top 25 Academics in the university that year; I was the only student who didn't have a parent attend the honorary dinner. I invited a friend, and thanked him afterwards for attending. His response? "I didn't come to support you, it's free prime rib!"...
- Started the corporate grind, and saving for retirement. Funny, how what gets preached about compound interest and paying yourself first, by setting aside for later, really works!
- After being told, "you're just an engineer" far too many times, decided to get an MBA. I knew of the concept of opportunity cost before it was covered in school, so knew that taking 2 years off work to get my degree would have an extremely long ROI. Fortunately, there was a program at my school that allowed me to take the same classes, stretched out over 3 years instead of 2, while I continued to work full time. All classes were graded on a curve, and I remember telling full time students that they should hang their heads in shame if I did better than them, after spotting them 40 hours a week. And that did happen. Toughest three years of my life.
- I did take out student loans while in grad school. After all, if I could borrow money at 0% and invest it, why not? Put the money in the market, paid it back in full when my first payment was due.
- Didn't get married until I was 45, after seeing a lot of my friends crash and burn in divorce court. There was a prenup before I got hitched, and the day I signed it is the last time I looked at it. Knock on wood that continues.

I've read this thread with a bit of amusement, as it has evolved into a bash the kids discussion. Times have definitely changed, but they always do. I personally think that kids are a lot softer these days, but I have a lot of friends that never left my hometown or made much of themselves, so generalizing kinda sucks. Harleys aren't selling, but neither are brand new, 3 year old F6Bs, at 50% off MSRP, as can be seen on CycleTrader. And none of that affects any of us, in our enjoyment of motorcycles.

[Fourks]

Must of hit a few nerves, sorry. We bitch about the generation coming up, meanwhile offer them a Country with more inequality we’ve seen in 150 years. A degraded environment. Unaffordable healthcare. And a unsafe environment for our children to learn in. Just rings untrue to me. We were suppose to leave our children with a better place then we found.

[53driver]

...
But, hey....I'm just an old fart.
.....sT

sT - Let me get a can of refried beans and I'll sit next to you and be an old fart too....


Make your bed and sleep in it.
We're all to blame, if you want to blame someone.
Things change.

Things do change - and adapting & overcoming adversity at the individual level has always made Americans great.
Time to change a bit more towards that mentality, IMH(AWI)O.


The kids I know and have known are doing a great job at being good citizens.

2WFM - Mike, having met you and broken bread with you, I'd say that any kid you willingly associate with has their act together. My guess is that you mentor those you know and guide them down a great path. Well done by you.

Just like motorcycling all too often contains metaphors for life, are Harley's financial situation and the lack of interest in motorcycling telling us that the Inner Spirit of a majority of Americans is shying away from adventure and exploration?
Is "taking a risk" now synonymous with outlaws?

Another point of view to ponder: from a "motorcycle rider generator" perspective, I'm seeing more and more middle aged (35-55 yo) people in the classroom, wanting to learn to ride.
Usually a new, middle aged rider is going through another mid-life crisis, job change, spouse change, whatever.
The are no longer being 'restricted' by whatever and want to live life a bit louder.

Also, for most people, the motorcycle is a secondary form of transportation - a toy, if you will.
Have Americans stopped acquiring and playing with toys? Because of lack of money? I don't think so. It's an inner change.

Yes, for some riders, it is their only owned source of transportation, but in my experience, new riders are looking at riding as recreational, not as an option to get from A to B.
Of course, with Uber, Lyft, public transport, taxi, etc, that's very understandable - they don't NEED wheels to get around, they are content to 'rent on demand'.
Hmmm. "On demand" services. I don't like the word "demand." How about "Immediately Rentable"? "Conveniently Available"?
The word 'demand' implies so much more is going on. People who demand things are often seen as egotistical rat ba$tards.
Yet we have "on demand" entertainment, "on demand" transportation, "on demand communication" and a slew of other things in the "instant gratification" category.
I think it's the "instant" thing that's effectively driving young people away.
They cannot get a Driver's License instantly - it requires some prep.
They cannot get a Motorcycle endorsement instantly - unless you live in Alabama, but I digress - for most states it requires you actually sit in a class and demonstrate proficiency, mentally and physically.
They cannot use their iPhone to get your bike out of the garage, T-CLOCK itself, warm up, get your proper gear on, and get in the right frame of mind to ride - it requires some prep and time management.
They cannot drive through the local coffee house and get a to-go cup - must make coffee at home - more prep time.
They cannot have a physical conversation, that takes mental prep time and it's just easier to type a text, review it (minimizing initial mental prep time), and then launch it.
A more basic example: too many people do not know how to prepare food from scratch. It requires some learning, a few tools, and prep to go shopping to get the right ingredients. Oh, and take the time to actually cook, although in reality actual cooking time is less than 30 minutes...

The younger generation seems to put more value on saving time by opting to contract-out tasks for which previous generations didn't have the technological opportunity.
And for this, they NEED their iPhones.
I know that in the long term, for me, it's not as cost-effective to contract out most services (especially coffee making).
You can use an "app" to have you ride waiting, your coffee waiting, your haircut waiting, your prepared food waiting, and even your groceries waiting for pickup.

So what is all that telling us as a society?
As "old farts" we know that time is money. And you cannot buy time. We wish we had more time.
Young adults are using technology to save themselves time. Did we inadvertently teach them that?
How can Harley (and other motorcycle manufacturers) appeal to this mindset?
I don't have the answers, but I know what works for me.
Maybe they don't have the answers either, but they know what works for them.
And us old farts enabled their workarounds, actively & passively.

Time to go to my very expensive Jura E-8 coffee machine and get another gourmet cup of coffee - but I will have to empty the grounds all by myself.
Cheers,
Steve

[53driver]

Must of hit a few nerves, sorry. We bitch about the generation coming up, meanwhile offer them a Country with more inequality we’ve seen in 150 years. A degraded environment. Unaffordable healthcare. And a unsafe environment for our children to learn in. Just rings untrue to me. We were suppose to leave our children with a better place then we found.

Fourks - no apologies necessary! This forum is about ideas. I love a stimulating discussion first thing in the morning!
It's all good!
:cheers:

[jm21ddd15]

Fourks - no apologies necessary! This forum is about ideas. I love a stimulating discussion first thing in the morning!
It's all good!
:cheers:


Those 2 mugs, don't look like coffee cups. What kind of breakfast are you enjoying?

[53driver]

Those 2 mugs, :cheers: don't look like coffee cups. What kind of breakfast are you enjoying?

Uh, an Irish breakfast????