Leaving California.........

[BIGLRY]

This was written by Hal Bray, not me as I live in a rural area of Calif. and so far am safe from some of the nuttiness that goes on here, but don't know for how long.

My wife and I live in the San Francisco Bay Area. But like 46% of Bay area residents in a June 2018 Bay Area Council poll, we are considering leaving California. Arizona looks like our destination although many friends have already moved to Texas, Nevada, Idaho, and Tennessee.

Why? Simple California’s Progressive culture and government has turned the state into a filthy, debt-ridden, congested third world country with high taxes, high crime, and the highest housing costs in the country.

Our little piece of bliss is a third world country, made up of a large, wealthy population (Hollywood and Silicon Valley tech giants), an enormous poor population, and a declining middle class that elected officials only view as a large, distributed human ATM machine from which they withdraw money for “sanctuary cities” (actually sanctuary everything, cities, universities, the State, etc.), social justice programs, suing the Trump administration, and “free” everything for everyone.

(The federal government has informed California this year, for example, that as it [California] tries to implement free health care for everyone, it illegally enrolled 400,000 people on Medicaid at a cost of $1 billion plus per year). According to the Census Bureau, California has the highest poverty rate in the country at 19%. And, according to the Department of Health and Human Services, California has 12% of the country’s population and 43% of its TANF (welfare). California spends $103 billion per year on welfare, more than the next two states combined (New York at $61.4 billion and Texas at $35.4 billion).

California has one of the highest GINI, or inequality, ratio in the country. A GINI ratio measures the difference between the richest residents and its poorest residents. According to Chapman University’s Center for Demographics and Policy, the state’s inequality is worse than Mexico and equal to Guatemala and Honduras (ironically, where many of our new voters appear to be coming from).

San Francisco, proud to be what it thinks of itself as America’s most Progressive city, is a good surrogate for the state as a whole. The city has: — hundreds of complaints weekly (more than 1600 in one recent week) about human feces (or “@#$%&” to our progressive friends) on the street, in parks, and in other public places; residents in the city, therefore, implemented a “POOP” or “Human Waste” Map, that tells visitors and residents which neighborhoods to avoid because of the overwhelming amount of human waste on the streets and other public places.

As if feces and urine everywhere are not bad enough, the city government is, in effect, turning the city into one large, outdoor illegal drug market. The city distributes more than 4.5 million hypodermic syringes and needles yearly to its growing horde of drug addicts; so many drug addicts clog the city’s commuter train (BART) stations.

But filth is not the city’s only issue. The FBI recently ranked San Francisco as the city with the highest crime rate in the country. For example, in 2017 the city’s residents were burdened with 32,000 car burglaries (residents put signs in their car windows begging people not to break their windows or steal anything from their cars).

The city of San Diego, adjacent to the Mexican border, is itself recovering from a Hepatitis A outbreak from human waste by washing its downtown streets nightly with bleach.

The State has the country’s highest income tax (and the highest capital gains tax in the WORLD), sales tax, gasoline tax, unemployment tax, and workers compensation tax. And, lucky us, we have the only Cap and Trade tax in the country, a secret “tax” administered by a State of California Corporation formed in Delaware.

Under the heading of criminal justice reform, the State has recently reduced many crimes in the State from felonies to misdemeanor status and released thousands of inmates from prison early. This August Governor Moonbeam (Jerry Brown) signed bail reform into law outlawing money bail. Combined, these new laws have added to both the crime problem and the homelessness problem.

Speaking of homelessness, since the state government began focusing on solving the problem, the state’s homeless population has doubled; it is like a homeless manufacturing and marketing plan. Five years ago, L.A’s homeless population was 32,000; last year’s count was 57,000. (What will it be after the thousands of asylum seekers are admitted to the numerous Sanctuary Cities)

The average price of a home in California is 2.5 times higher than the price of homes in other states (Average price of a home in San Francisco and many surrounding suburbs is more than $1million). This means owning a house is difficult, at best and the median homeowner property tax bill is 93% higher than the average for the other 49 states.

In the last election, 70 California cities raised their sales tax rates (primarily to pay for escalating pension costs for our failing pension systems). In addition, repealing last year’s new gas and vehicle registration taxes in Proposition 6 will likely be defeated next week.

Reform Network ranks California as the second worst “Judicial Hell-Hole” in the Country. CEO magazine has ranked California the worst state in the Country to do business in for the 14th straight year.

California’s public schools are among the worst in the country. National tests place California students 44th (reading) and 46th (math) in the nation.

While private sector workers in the State (and Country) who retire this year with at least 30 years of full-time work will receive, on average, a Social Security pension of $15,800 ($38,000 maximum), State and most city workers in the CalPERS pension system will receive a pension of $70,000 (police and fire more than $100,000 at age 50).

Teachers in the State make, on average, $81,000 per year and retire at 60 with an average pension of $55,000 per year. Yet both pension systems (CalPERS and CalSTRS) are only 2/3 funded with unfunded liabilities of close to $1 trillion. Employer contributions (read taxpayer contributions) that are already unsustainably high are doubling over the next five years (this will attract a lot of new business – LOL) to try to keep the systems from bankruptcy.

TRIP, a Washington, D.C. nonprofit, reported this month that California is home to six of the 20 U.S. cities of 200,000 or more people with the highest percentage of their streets and roads whose pavement condition is rated in poor condition: No.1 San Francisco; No.2 San Jose; No.3 Los Angeles; No12 Sacramento; No.13 Riverside; No.16 Fresno.

According to the Federal government, California’s Cost of living is 41% higher than the national average.

Kiplinger has ranked California the 3rd worst state, behind New York and New Jersey, to retire in. They clearly missed something because from where I live, we’re number one and as a result, we are all moving.

Not to be all negative, the State and many cities in California have one BIG accomplishment for 2018: they have banned plastic straws. Yes, plastic straws I guess they wanted to make sure there is enough plastic for the free hypodermic syringes they are giving out And, oh, another big accomplishment, by golly, was banning all drinks for children’s meals in restaurants except water and milk. This may sound stupid, but we have all seen progressive parenting.

Maybe “Progressive” works when the progressive population is small and can be mostly ignored and/or tolerated by the population that pays the tab for it. But when its population becomes something closer in size to the mainstream population it is painful to live with and financially unsustainable.

My advice to Arizonians: get ready for the onslaught. Accept those coming to Arizona to flee the devastation of California and join your culture, your values. Be wary, however, of those coming to bring their devastation to Arizona. My request, as we plan our move to Arizona , is please don’t duplicate California’s failures; don’t “Californicate” Arizona.

[Ewreck]

Pretty much why I fled to California Light, I mean Colorado in 2014. Oklahoma is starting to look like a 7 after a few drinks.

[jm21ddd15]

Watch out in Colorado, too. Beautiful state, but becoming a haven for libs. Once know as a great hunting state, now, taking away guns, and banning certain magazines for weapons. Legal dope smoking, which is out of control. I got a friend in Denver, with a business, and he can't afford to rent more "warehouse" space, to help his business, because most all the warehouse space is filled with excessive legal weed. Cost of warehouse space is too high, for him , so he can't expand his business. When weed got legalized, they had no control over how much or who can grow, So they just store it. And, he has a hard time finding machine operators, because the people they hire, work for the 1st check, and then quit. Says they just get their paycheck, go buy dope and never come back. Don't sound so good, to me. I don't live there, so all my statements may not be exact, but my good friend tells me all this, and I have no reason to think he is wrong.

[Fourks]

You guys are a trip. Sound like a bunch of lunatics. Turn off the fox news for gods sake~!

[Draxsr]

Because Fox news 'made all that up'? Couldn't simply be true, could it? Turn off MSNBC and/or CNN for Gods sake!

[jm21ddd15]

You guys are a trip. Sound like a bunch of lunatics. Turn off the fox news for gods sake~!

Sounds like you spend too much time at the pot stores.

[Fourks]

Sounds like you spend too much time at the pot stores.

oh I get it, because I’m from Colorado... good one. Americans should not be attacking each other!

[Fourks]

Because Fox news 'made all that up'? Couldn't simply be true, could it? Turn off MSNBC and/or CNN for Gods sake!

No, there’s some truth on both sides. And I might vote Rebulican for the first time in my life. But I get tired of all you whiners playing right into foreign hands. Even street pooping libs are Americans! A lot of them homeless veterans too.

[Ewreck]

You guys are a trip. Sound like a bunch of lunatics. Turn off the fox news for gods sake~!

Hal Bray doesn’t work for Fox News. He writes for the East Bay Times among other papers which would be a stretch to call right wing. I was born in Torrance CA, lived and owned a business in Temecula CA for 47 of my 52 years. I can personally attest that the article is way more factual then the opposite. The saddest part is my new home state is going to become CA little sister.

[olegoat345]

I read that CA. is the worlds, third largest economy. No matter which side of this silly debate you're on, somebody must be doing something right.
I don't understand all the anger & hate just because someone doesn't think / act just like you do...….... No matter which side of this silly debate you're on.

[jm21ddd15]

No, there’s some truth on both sides. And I might vote Rebulican for the first time in my life. But I get tired of all you whiners playing right into foreign hands. Even street pooping libs are Americans! A lot of them homeless veterans too.

Now you have called us "whiners" and "lunatics". And I am a Veteran, in case you are interested. Not sure where you come up with that line about playing into foreign hands. Doesn't make any sense.

[JWExperience]

You guys are a trip. Sound like a bunch of lunatics. Turn off the fox news for gods sake~!
I find it funny that he says this...then accuses everyone else of “attacking” people in the quote below.


oh I get it, because I’m from Colorado... good one. Americans should not be attacking each other!

The OP posts an article riddled with factual statistics and fourks brings up foreign meddling fake news BS that took dems two years plus to fail to prove. Fox News primarily reported it was a BS investigation from the start and CNN primarily reported Trump was going to prison. Who should we watch...?

[Fourks]

I find it funny that he says this...then accuses everyone else of “attacking” people in the quote below.



The OP posts an article riddled with factual statistics and fourks brings up foreign meddling fake news BS that took dems two years plus to fail to prove. Fox News primarily reported it was a BS investigation from the start and CNN primarily reported Trump was going to prison. Who should we watch...?

No, I’m just attacking the stupid in this thread, the OP post is filled with accurate statistics but the way it’s worded and the jist of it is an attack on California and progressives. There is plenty of proof of foreign meddling in our election, even people sitting in jail for it.

[VaBob]

So whats your argument FOR living in California? Its easy to find stuff we dont like about anything and everything. But what is it that we should like about it?

Not arguing for the sake of it, just trying to promote conversation and free thinking.

[Ewreck]

No, I’m just attacking the stupid in this thread, the OP post is filled with accurate statistics but the way it’s worded and the jist of it is an attack on California and progressives. There is plenty of proof of foreign meddling in our election, even people sitting in jail for it.
Not that the editorial posted had anything to do with foreign meddling, I assume you mean in our elections so I also hope you understand we do the exact same thing to other countries. Do you have a link to this “proof” and the names of the people sitting in jail for it? I admit I haven’t had TV since 2013 but I am an avid reader. I also find it telling when you’re called out for “attacking” and then follow it up by calling said attackers stupid. Why don’t you pick out a particular part of the article you disagree with and tell us on the opposite side of the aisle why.

[Fourks]

So whats your argument FOR living in California? Its easy to find stuff we dont like about anything and everything. But what is it that we should like about it?

Not arguing for the sake of it, just trying to promote conversation and free thinking.

Family ( I promise none of them poop in the streets) Ocean, Sierra Nevada mountain range, Red hot economy with high paying jobs, and lots of free thinking. I think California is a victim of its own success.

[Fourks]

Not that the editorial posted had anything to do with foreign meddling, I assume you mean in our elections so I also hope you understand we do the exact same thing to other countries. Do you have a link to this “proof” and the names of the people sitting in jail for it? I admit I haven’t had TV since 2013 but I am an avid reader. I also find it telling when you’re called out for “attacking” and then follow it up by calling said attackers stupid. Why don’t you pick out a particular part of the article you disagree with and tell us on the opposite side of the aisle why.

"flee the devastation of California and join your culture, your values. Be wary, however, of those coming to bring their devastation to Arizona". Looks like we are suggesting a civil war? Whose culture and values are we defending? THis statement is stupid. If you can't take it, dont dish it.

[Ewreck]

"flee the devastation of California and join your culture, your values. Be wary, however, of those coming to bring their devastation to Arizona". Looks like we are suggesting a civil war? Whose culture and values are we defending? THis statement is stupid. If you can't take it, dont dish it.
Nothing particularly wrong with that statement. I assume by your previous posts you have no problem with Colorado becoming a liberal state with all the same benefits California offers its inhabitants. Is it the doubling of your property taxes, 5 dollar a gallon gas, 10% sales tax, social services being devoured by illegal aliens, horrible public schools, pensions that can never be paid, unaffordable houses, or the millions of homeless and poor that have a zero chance in the 3rd largest economy in the world. If you think CA is a success for the majority of its population I’d hate to know what you think a failure is. Not that it matters to you but I lived there and witnessed the slow rot for most, not all, and it’s real. My son still lives there, makes a good living, pays 3600.00 a month rent for a 1200 sq’ house yet can’t afford his own as the median home price where he works is over 1.2 million. Yes it’s a beautiful state but to think or believe any politician is properly running it is laughable. Sierra Mountains, hot job market, high wages, free thinkers. Why are there record numbers of people leaving?

[Fourks]

I don't think any politician is running anything properly. One of the reasons i'm considering Trump who is finally enforcing the law and has the correct foreign policies. The socialist left scares me as much as the fascist right. So there has to be some common ground, and suggesting that fellow Americans could bring devastation in a state because of their views being different is un American.

[tenxxx]

We are way past the point of no return. Socialists are going for broke. Its all or nothing for them.
What will it take short of civil war to end this.
My 2 cents is worth only that.

[Ewreck]

I don't think any politician is running anything properly. One of the reasons i'm considering Trump who is finally enforcing the law and has the correct foreign policies. The socialist left scares me as much as the fascist right. So there has to be some common ground, and suggesting that fellow Americans could bring devastation in a state because of their views being different is un American.
But they do bring devastation do they not? Someone is responsible for the negative things happening to a segment of the population. I dislike both parties as they no longer have the best interest of the US citizen but I am 100% conservative. The Socialists and Communists are no longer hiding in the Democratic Party but I do not see a Fascist Right equal in any aspect but maybe you can give me some examples. It’s difficult to compete or challenge the left when they have taken over media, education, and news. Instead of defending or debating the merits of their policies, they hide behind the words racist, homophobe, islamaphobe, etc. as most of their policies are indefensible. The right doesn’t have any redeeming qualities either but to pretend there’s not a huge advantage when it comes to the battlefield of politics is disingenuous. Today’s politician is basically two sides of the same coin as true conservatism no longer exists at least at the federal level.

[Fourks]

Maybe you all underestimate your fellow Americans. Remember it's the independents that are going to settle this election.

[JWExperience]

Maybe you all underestimate your fellow Americans. Remember it's the independents that are going to settle this election.

I think you under estimate the propaganda of cnn/msnbc. Don’t get me wrong, they all have an adgenda but there’s a difference between putting out downright lies and reporting on news that support your views. Everyone who was arrested related to the Russian meddling invest has been charged with tax evasion or perjury. Not a single treason type charge that I’m aware of. 25million dollars wasted over two years, government at work.

[53driver]

I view elections like those "Group School Projects" - I know I did MY part right, I just hope all y'all did your due diligence.....

[Xrider57]

No, I’m just attacking the stupid in this thread, the OP post is filled with accurate statistics but the way it’s worded and the jist of it is an attack on California and progressives. There is plenty of proof of foreign meddling in our election, even people sitting in jail for it.
Nobody that I know of is sitting in jail for it. Tell me who and what they did? I can think of a few libs that actually did collude with foreign governments that hopefully will now pay.

[JWExperience]

Nobody that I know of is sitting in jail for it. Tell me who and what they did? I can think of a few libs that actually did collude with foreign governments that hopefully will now pay.

yeah like Debbie Schultz and Hillary Clinton who paid for the dossier that would never have been grounds for a warrant on anyone but trump? The people who were actually prosecuted were for tax evasion and other BS. Like someone already said, meddling is a typical government operation, collusion is not. 25 million wasted.

[Cooter]

I view elections like those "Group School Projects" - I know I did MY part right, I just hope all y'all did your due diligence.....

Not trying to single you out 53 , we have been talking about this subject at the local old farts hangout. I believe this voting thing is a little too free. Why should an apartment dweller be allowed to vote on my property taxes. In fact that is allowing a person that this does not affect to impose a tax on me. Wife and I was thinking about selling and building a new smaller house. Then we found out that real estate taxes would be three times higher than what we pay now. I'll stay in my old house for that. The thousands of renter's in my county pass every school tax that is.put on the ballot. Every tax for law enforcement , and every tax for the ambulance district. These entities are the biggest wasters of my tax dollars.

[Cooter]

But they do bring devastation do they not? Someone is responsible for the negative things happening to a segment of the population. I dislike both parties as they no longer have the best interest of the US citizen but I am 100% conservative. The Socialists and Communists are no longer hiding in the Democratic Party but I do not see a Fascist Right equal in any aspect but maybe you can give me some examples. It’s difficult to compete or challenge the left when they have taken over media, education, and news. Instead of defending or debating the merits of their policies, they hide behind the words racist, homophobe, islamaphobe, etc. as most of their policies are indefensible. The right doesn’t have any redeeming qualities either but to pretend there’s not a huge advantage when it comes to the battlefield of politics is disingenuous. Today’s politician is basically two sides of the same coin as true conservatism no longer exists at least at the federal level.

Man , that's s mouthful of truth. I can't claim to be a Dem or a Rep. If you listen to them they both want lower taxes. Then how can we have higher taxes. All liars for the most part. We need a new party. Conservative. For my part I'm proud to have voted for Donald Trump. I believe he has done more for our country in 2 years than Obama and Bush did in 16. I like a billionaire in office. He's not out to get my money.

[BIGLRY]

Not trying to single you out 53 , we have been talking about this subject at the local old farts hangout. I believe this voting thing is a little too free. Why should an apartment dweller be allowed to vote on my property taxes. In fact that is allowing a person that this does not affect to impose a tax on me. Wife and I was thinking about selling and building a new smaller house. Then we found out that real estate taxes would be three times higher than what we pay now. I'll stay in my old house for that. The thousands of renter's in my county pass every school tax that is.put on the ballot. Every tax for law enforcement , and every tax for the ambulance district. These entities are the biggest wasters of my tax dollars.
I'm just playing "devil's advocate" here.:D
So by that reasoning only property owners should be able to vote on ballots concerning property taxes in elections? If so how do you separate non property owners from property owners at the ballot box and keep the voting process anonymous? Renters as well as property owners both send their children to the same schools and both ride on the same roads and call the same law enforcement, ambulance or firefighters when in need?
Do not some renters become property owners...I know I was a renter for many years until my wife and I saved enough for the down payment on our first home?
Oh, and speaking of buying a home, here where I live a single-family home sells for a median price of $600,860. Could you or anyone eles just starting out in life earning minimum wage with a new wife or a few rug rats running around afford to buy?
And what about former property owners who now rent... i.e. divorce, lost job and must sell. Should there be some mechanism in place so they can't vote on property tax issues in the future?
I see your logic, but not the practicability nor unfortunately any equitable solutions to the issue.

Yea, property taxes are a very sore subject with me too. Why do I have to pay school taxes now when all my children finished school 30+ years ago and don't even live in this state? :mad:

[BIGLRY]

For my part I'm proud to have voted for Donald Trump. I believe he has done more for our country in 2 years than Obama and Bush did in 16. I like a billionaire in office. He's not out to get my money.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/image/9912962-3x2-940x627.jpg

[Cooter]

So Larry , maybe you should have to present a "paid" Real Estate tax bill at the polls and then be issued a correct ballot. The Constitution declares it unlawful for Congress to impose anything on a constituent that it does not impose upon themselves. So why should your fellow man be able to do so?? And like you I'm not trying to argue. And my kids have been out of public schools for 20 years. I don't really mind paying a fair tax. But look at the millions of renter's that don't pay any school tax and have four or more kids that are a burden on the "taxpayer". I guess what I'm saying is that those parents should help "share" the load.

[F6Bster]

So Larry , maybe you should have to present a "paid" Real Estate tax bill at the polls and then be issued a correct ballot. The Constitution declares it unlawful for Congress to impose anything on a constituent that it does not impose upon themselves. So why should your fellow man be able to do so?? And like you I'm not trying to argue. And my kids have been out of public schools for 20 years. I don't really mind paying a fair tax. But look at the millions of renter's that don't pay any school tax and have four or more kids that are a burden on the "taxpayer". I guess what I'm saying is that those parents should help "share" the load.

That is a fair point. However, the apartment owner(s) pay property taxes that do include taxes for the schools, so, indirectly the renters are paying at least some of their rent to cover that. The latest thing where I live is that the school district now gets just over 1% of the sales tax collected. It was increased specifically for the local school district, so everyone (including visitors) who make purchases are contributing to the school district. Taxes are so convoluted!!!

[VaBob]

It may be an unpopular opinion, but if you cant afford to live in a particular area, then move. Im not calling anyone out or using anyone here as an example. So if what Im about to write sounds familiar, it wasnt on purpose.

When I was young, my parents moved the family out of Massachusetts because dad was a mechanic, and mom worked at a grocery. Got to the point that they couldnt afford it anymore, so we moved to the hills of Va. And that was way before super expensive cable packages, cell phones, 8 year car loads, ect ect. I remember PB&Js with a glass a milk or something called American Chop Suey (hamburger and elbow macaroni with a can or tomato sauce) was the main menu for I dont know how many meals.

Sure you can try to "win" and earn more and try to save a buck here and there, and find out what your willing to put up with in your area. But my parents found a place that still needed a Mechanic and a Cashier. Pay was decent for the area, cost of living was much lower, and I got to join a baseball team and have my own glove and bat. That was awesome back then.

So I always hear about people who cant afford to move, or they dont want to move away from their support group, ect ect ect. But if you cant afford your area, and you have actually reduced every bill you can think of, then how can you afford to Not move? Maybe peoples support group is what is holding people back?

I dont know, I know that if times are hard, I cut way back on spending and turtle up. And if gets to the point where I can afford what I have, then I'll sell everything but the car and clothes and head to cheaper pastures. (Which is really only 10 miles from me, blue ridge hillbilly country and all that)

[Cooter]

Bob you bring up a good point. A lot of people live beyond their means. I'm one that doesn't. But the American way is to be overextended. I agree. If you can't afford it , move or don't buy it.

[wildman]

You don't need to listen to Fox News to know how bad California is, just read the LA times. It sounds to me like you might be a bit sensitive about the truth.

[53driver]

Not trying to single you out 53 , we have been talking about this subject at the local old farts hangout. I believe this voting thing is a little too free. Why should an apartment dweller be allowed to vote on my property taxes. In fact that is allowing a person that this does not affect to impose a tax on me. Wife and I was thinking about selling and building a new smaller house. Then we found out that real estate taxes would be three times higher than what we pay now. I'll stay in my old house for that. The thousands of renter's in my county pass every school tax that is.put on the ballot. Every tax for law enforcement , and every tax for the ambulance district. These entities are the biggest wasters of my tax dollars.

No worries mate...I LOVE being singled out. The more of my posts you read, the sooner you'll figure that out.
Bring it on, anytime!
Cheers mate!

[blackmetoc]

The problem is, leftists vote in leftist policies, hose up their states, then emigrate to another state that is more free, has less regulations, allows business to operate w/o driving them out and encourages the Constitutional constraints afforded to the citizens to keep government out of their personal lives. THEN, they vote the same way all over again. I want gays to be able to marry, smoke pot and carry their firearms w/o government involvement.

[Cali261]

I got a pleasant surprise at breakfast this morning. I found out how some of those “freebies” get paid for. Free Healthcare, Free College, subsidized housing, free phones, free this and free that. Incredible how many people believe in the concept of a “free lunch”. Once both my kids graduate from college, I’m going to have to find a state with less taxes, and smaller government. Between earthquakes and the progressives, it’s just a matter of time before this state breaks off and falls into the ocean. This next election will be a critical point in the history of our nation.


6409

[jmdaniel]

Yea, property taxes are a very sore subject with me too. Why do I have to pay school taxes now when all my children finished school 30+ years ago and don't even live in this state? :mad:

I'll see your bitch and raise you.

No kids ever.
My school taxes this year will be $9500, or within pissing distance of $800 a MONTH!

My idea has always been:

- a base tax for everyone, and make it based on something that is quasi ability to pay, not the value of my freaking house
- if you have kids in school, you pay a user fee, until the kid graduates, or turns 18, whichever comes later, after which the user fee goes away

The beauty of that plan is the folks that are causing the need for a service are paying more for that service, while we all share some of the pain for educating the next generation of burger flippers.

Logical, but with absolutely no chance of this happening; more breeders than childless freaks like me.