Air cleaner opinion

[SpencerPJ]

With great advise, I ran my digital scope into my air cleaner and snapped some pics. I bought my 2013 F6B last fall with little records (none) accept an seemingly honest guy that said a Dealer did all the maintenance. Here are some pictures of my air filter, the bike almost has 25k miles. Do you think it has been done previously? Looks decent imo, what mileage do you suspect I should strive for? I live in the midwest, I ride in the afternoons in the country and southern hills, not a dirty environment at all.


8389838683878388

[taxfree4]

Looks like it needs changing, even if it was done. Mileage maintenance is okay but every bike is subject to different environments. Pain in the azz to do but worth it, IMHO.

[jm21ddd15]

I got 80k on my 2015, done 4 air filter changes. Mine never looked that dirty. Hate to tell you, but you need to change that filter. It's not hard, just takes time.

[rdbonds]

+1. That one has served you (and the PO) well...time to retire it. The task isn't THAT bad...it just takes time.

[SpencerPJ]

Thanks everyone, I'll buy one and add it to my list to do. I want to replace all fluids etc first.

[F6Dave]

http://https://www.nicoclub.com/archives/kn-vs-oem-filter.html (https://www.nicoclub.com/archives/kn-vs-oem-filter.html)

If you're considering switching to a K&N, you might want to read the above test.

[SpencerPJ]

http://https://www.nicoclub.com/archives/kn-vs-oem-filter.html (https://www.nicoclub.com/archives/kn-vs-oem-filter.html)

If you're considering switching to a K&N, you might want to read the above test.

I usually stick with OEM stuff.

[SeaSteve]

I agree that anything "above" OEM paper filters is overkill and more expensive...But I did the K&N because It simplifies the process for me.

I don't have to order a filter when it's time to clean my K&N. I've got the kit to clean and refresh the K&N whenever it's time and the cost of the K&N and Kit isn't that much more over the life of the bike.

Also, others have said the K&N didn't fit correctly around the edges of the gasket. I'd say my K&N is difficult because it's just a "smidge" too big, so It fits VERY tightly sealed with all the bolts on the cover.

[taxfree4]

As far as this "test" goes I'd be leary. First it was performed on a filters for a diesel V8 truck engine, second, even they admit in the article "As Arlen learned in attempting his own tests, there are many variables that can adversely affect filter test results. Third, "Temperature & humidity of the test dust and air used in the test are strictly monitored and controlled" which doesn't happen in the real world. Fourth, "A small temperature change or a small change in humidity can cause the mass of a paper filter to change by several grams." In the end you can have test results tailored to whatever outcome you want if you control the input. When these filters are compared on F6B's or Goldwings, in real life situations, then maybe I'll even consider it but this particular study holds no water.

[3wings]

As far as this "test" goes I'd be leary. First it was performed on a filters for a diesel V8 truck engine, second, even they admit in the article "As Arlen learned in attempting his own tests, there are many variables that can adversely affect filter test results. Third, "Temperature & humidity of the test dust and air used in the test are strictly monitored and controlled" which doesn't happen in the real world. Fourth, "A small temperature change or a small change in humidity can cause the mass of a paper filter to change by several grams." In the end you can have test results tailored to whatever outcome you want if you control the input. When these filters are compared on F6B's or Goldwings, in real life situations, then maybe I'll even consider it but this particular study holds no water.

I'm sure that if we came up with the cash, we could have these tests performed on GW air filters. The guys getting these tests done were diesel guys and that may have been a good thing because diesel filters tend to be bigger and heavier which might have made their accuracy a bit easier to achieve. The author was very forward about how the tests were performed and the big variables that temp and humidity could introduce. It would be pretty impossible to do a real world test with any validity so they have to control the variables as much as they could to make their test have value.

Does anyone have any ideas to make their testing better and more applicable.

In my opinion, the big cost in air filters for us is the labor to change them. Filters are the cheapest insurance we can get for our toys. This article brings up a great point that if a supplier's filter is really better, why not pay for the independent test and use it in their advertising rather than just saying "mine is better"?
I have K&N's in three of the seven bikes in my garage. This article is making me re-think that.

Now we can spend way too much time arguing this along with oil and tires. 😁😁😁

[taxfree4]

I'm sure that if we came up with the cash, we could have these tests performed on GW air filters. The guys getting these tests done were diesel guys and that may have been a good thing because diesel filters tend to be bigger and heavier which might have made their accuracy a bit easier to achieve. The author was very forward about how the tests were performed and the big variables that temp and humidity could introduce. It would be pretty impossible to do a real world test with any validity so they have to control the variables as much as they could to make their test have value.

Does anyone have any ideas to make their testing better and more applicable.

In my opinion, the big cost in air filters for us is the labor to change them. Filters are the cheapest insurance we can get for our toys. This article brings up a great point that if a supplier's filter is really better, why not pay for the independent test and use it in their advertising rather than just saying "mine is better"?
I have K&N's in three of the seven bikes in my garage. This article is making me re-think that.

Now we can spend way too much time arguing this along with oil and tires. ������

Then unless it is in the real world, where we live and ride, I wouldn't give this a thought. Imagine telling a guy with a GM Duramax V8 Diesel that because of a controlled test on a Goldwing he spent too much money for nothing on his filter instead of an OEM. Thalidomide worked great in the lab till kids were being born without arms and legs in the real world.

[DaWadd]

I wouldn't put a K&N in anything. My bike gets OEM only.The OEM filter is a very good product and it fits my bike properly.

[F6Dave]

I hesitated to post that test because in the past, we had a member who seemed personally offended by any criticism of K&N. However, I thought that anyone thinking about switching might be interested as it shows why manufacturers don't install 'serviceable' oiled media filters on their vehicles.

The internet is full of K&N filter complaints. Most focus on two issues: damage to MAF sensors (which our GL1800s don't use) from the filter oil, and visual evidence in the intake tract that excess dirt is passing through. But those are mostly anecdotal stories. If you want precise data you often need to get out of the real world and into a controlled environment. To measure horsepower you connect to a dyno. To determine the condition of your oil you don't look at color of the dipstick, you send a sample to a lab.

That's what the 'Spicer' test did. Rather than analyze filters pulled from an engine, they ran an ISO 5011 test on 9 competing filters using a machine that flowed test dust (a specific mix of particle sizes) at a constant rate until the filter clogged. Clogging was defined as restriction causing a pressure drop of 10 IN-H2O.

The results showed a clear pattern. Two oiled filters (K&N and Uni) were compared with 7 traditional paper/syntyetic filters, like Purolator, Wix, and AC/Delco. The best filter ran 60 minutes and let .4 grams of dust through. The worst (K&N) only ran for 24 minutes and let 7 grams through. So the best filter passed .0067 grams of dust per minute, compared to .29 grams for the K&N. That's a ratio of over 43:1!

It's easy to see why more dirt gets through the K&N. It has only 29 pleats, while the Honda filter has 43, or 48% more. With significantly less surface area the K&N can only flow more air by having larger pores. And larger pores mean larger dust particles.

The less efficient filtration of oiled media filters is fairly well know. But the big surprise to me was that they clog up faster, which is possibly due to having less surface area. I used K&N and another oiled filter in the past. I didn't like the clean/dry/re-oil routine, but I believed the hype that they lasted longer, and considered one for the F6B since the filter change is such a chore. Now that I know conventional filters last longer (and filter better) there's no way I'll install a brand that needs to be serviced MORE frequently.

http://dchealy.com/valk/gwfilters-pleatcount.jpg

[taxfree4]

I hesitated to post that test because in the past, we had a member who seemed personally offended by any criticism of K&N. However, I thought that anyone thinking about switching might be interested as it shows why manufacturers don't install 'serviceable' oiled media filters on their vehicles.

The internet is full of K&N filter complaints. Most focus on two issues: damage to MAF sensors (which our GL1800s don't use) from the filter oil, and visual evidence in the intake tract that excess dirt is passing through. But those are mostly anecdotal stories. If you want precise data you often need to get out of the real world and into a controlled environment. To measure horsepower you connect to a dyno. To determine the condition of your oil you don't look at color of the dipstick, you send a sample to a lab.

That's what the 'Spicer' test did. Rather than analyze filters pulled from an engine, they ran an ISO 5011 test on 9 competing filters using a machine that flowed test dust (a specific mix of particle sizes) at a constant rate until the filter clogged. Clogging was defined as restriction causing a pressure drop of 10 IN-H2O.

The results showed a clear pattern. Two oiled filters (K&N and Uni) were compared with 7 traditional paper/syntyetic filters, like Purolator, Wix, and AC/Delco. The best filter ran 60 minutes and let .4 grams of dust through. The worst (K&N) only ran for 24 minutes and let 7 grams through. So the best filter passed .0067 grams of dust per minute, compared to .29 grams for the K&N. That's a ratio of over 43:1!

It's easy to see why more dirt gets through the K&N. It has only 29 pleats, while the Honda filter has 43, or 48% more. With significantly less surface area the K&N can only flow more air by having larger pores. And larger pores mean larger dust particles.

The less efficient filtration of oiled media filters is fairly well know. But the big surprise to me was that they clog up faster, which is possibly due to having less surface area. I used K&N and another oiled filter in the past. I didn't like the clean/dry/re-oil routine, but I believed the hype that they lasted longer, and considered one for the F6B since the filter change is such a chore. Now that I know conventional filters last longer (and filter better) there's no way I'll install a brand that needs to be serviced MORE frequently.

http://dchealy.com/valk/gwfilters-pleatcount.jpg

Sounds good on paper, again, when you have a "controlled" environment you can control the outcome, sort of like polls which used to reflect real opinion now they are conducted in specific locations for a specified outcome. Even the previous test mentioned stated, "A small temperature change or a small change in humidity can cause the mass of a paper filter to change by several grams." In essence in the real world, which has a dynamic atmosphere all this is arbitrary. Manufacturers don't put things like filters in because they are the best they can possibly manufacturer they are on there because the accountants agree that it is at the right price. Case in point, my brother worked for the largest Jeep dealership on the East Coast and he said in order to go from the standard dashboard to a leather dashboard on that vehicle it would have cost the manufacturer 50 cents more per vehicle, they didn't do it, it's an option. All the people I rode with used K&N, they still do, these are guys that do their own work on their bikes. All I know is I change them every time, don't reoil, and it costs me a little more money. The bike runs great, she breathes fine, and now with the Torq Loopz even better. A lid for every pot

[F6Dave]

Sounds good on paper, again, when you have a "controlled" environment you can control the outcome, sort of like polls which used to reflect real opinion now they are conducted in specific locations for a specified outcome. Even the previous test mentioned stated, "A small temperature change or a small change in humidity can cause the mass of a paper filter to change by several grams." In essence in the real world, which has a dynamic atmosphere all this is arbitrary. Manufacturers don't put things like filters in because they are the best they can possibly manufacturer they are on there because the accountants agree that it is at the right price. Case in point, my brother worked for the largest Jeep dealership on the East Coast and he said in order to go from the standard dashboard to a leather dashboard on that vehicle it would have cost the manufacturer 50 cents more per vehicle, they didn't do it, it's an option. All the people I rode with used K&N, they still do, these are guys that do their own work on their bikes. All I know is I change them every time, don't reoil, and it costs me a little more money. The bike runs great, she breathes fine, and now with the Torq Loopz even better. A lid for every pot

So that's the problem! The indoor temperature and humidity in that lab caused the K&N filter to let 43 TIMES MORE DIRT pass through than a paper filter. I'm sure that out there in the 'real world', a K&N works much better. Just make sure you don't ride indoors!

[tenxxx]

Thats one of the great things about this life. CHOICES!

[taxfree4]

So that's the problem! The indoor temperature and humidity in that lab caused the K&N filter to let 43 TIMES MORE DIRT pass through than a paper filter. I'm sure that out there in the 'real world', a K&N works much better. Just make sure you don't ride indoors!

I can see why a "controlled" humidity and temperature made the paper filter run at optimal performance, if that what you set it at. Again, as stated ", "A small temperature change or a small change in humidity can cause the mass of a paper filter to change by several grams.." That's the legal disclaimer, the escape hatch. Did they run it through a variety of temps and humidities? I don't see that at all. What they did is get a number they were comfortable with and that was it. These are like epidemiologic studies, manufactured data presented to look like fact but are not gold standard. You would think Honda would publish these "facts" as their filter sales would go through the roof, K&N would have to find another business to go into. Maybe you should contact Honda and send them this breakthrough study, maybe they'll even put you in the commercial. I would say don't wait by the phone.

[maxrider]

Okay, I heap some verbiage to it :)

They both have a place and function, and both are commercial enterprises.

Opinions and internet studies and your own designated labs are like armpits, everybody has one and they all stink :)

Now you gonna go through the labor to get there, your options are simple, keep it simple, don't fight the bad fit, don't create more labor(washing/oiling)just grab that $40 piece of paper, shove it in there and forget about it for 40K miles or thereabouts.

You would do the same with the KN, albeit with a bit more labor and probably equal in cost.

So the winner is?

Yup, you figured it out, peace.

[taxfree4]

There's no fighting but clarity is vital whenever you are putting forward information, presenting it as cold hard scientific fact, until it is pulled apart and evaluated. Read the data presented and see if it is valid or not. This is how we have Dr. Fauci stating masks will protect you from getting Covid and spreading it when no scientific data of the sort exists. Nobody on the forum should present any information as gold standard fact when it isn't. If you want to say "Here's a study done, decide for youself" that's fine. My only point was if this information is so groundbreaking why wouldn't Honda take out full page ads in every mag touting it. Because their well paid lawyers tell them to stay away from this like kryptonite or K&N would drag their asses into court and debunk this "test" in a second and have a multi-million dollar settlement. Anyway, like I said before a lid for every pot

[tenxxx]

Yep, anything I or anyone else says is up for scrutiny. I could say the sky is blew and have a have a whole series of tests and have other people saying thats right. Then when you think you've got it all wrapped up, somebody else takes it apart and blows it up.
There is NEVER a last word. Unless your GOD.
I enjoy the conversations here. Always entertaining, educational.

[KeyWasted]

Here’s an interesting test from a neutral party;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ3L-E-ufYo

Looks like you need to decide between filtering and slight performance gains. :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GS69owXpGdY&t=433s

[maxrider]

Oh shit it is "rigged":)'popcorn and coke', going for a 1000-mile trip in the AM, taking out my filter next week, hopefully, it won't let me down, it is an OEM, and was not listed, scary.

[taxfree4]

Best comparison would be 2 identical bikes with identical fluids, exact same mileage, 20,000 mile trip, side by side, same route, analyze the oil.

[F6Dave]

I have some friends who are K&N 'true believers'. Their loyalty seems to be based more on faith than on facts. When confronted with data showing how poorly their filters work, they usually blame it on 'rigged tests' and 'greedy manufacturers'. I've wondered what drives their zealotry, and found a quiz that might offer some clues.

Air Filter Quiz

Question #1 - Which filter pictured below has more pleats?
A. The filter on the left (Honda).
B. The filter on the right (K&N).
C. The lighting distorts the pleats. The photos should be taken in the air box, where it's dark.

http://dchealy.com/valk/gwfilters-pleats.jpg

Question #2 - Which filter has the most surface area?
A. The filter with 48% more pleats.
B. The filter with fewer pleats.
C. It's a trick question. The surface area is constantly changing due to temperature, humidity, and road conditions.

Question #3 - How is it possible for a filter with less surface area to flow more air?
A. It has larger holes (pores) in the filter media.
B. The filter is removed from the air box.
C. A special oil lubricates the air so it flows faster.

Question #4 - How do larger holes (pores) affect filtration?
A. Larger holes allow more dust and dirt to enter the engine.
B. Dust and dirt won't hurt anything as long as there's plenty of air.
C. What's filtration?

[willtill]

:popcorn:

[3wings]

:popcorn:

Is it OK if I sit here and watch? Can I have some of your popcorn? :D

[taxfree4]

I have some friends who are K&N 'true believers'. Their loyalty seems to be based more on faith than on facts. When confronted with data showing how poorly their filters work, they usually blame it on 'rigged tests' and 'greedy manufacturers'. I've wondered what drives their zealotry, and found a quiz that might offer some clues.

Air Filter Quiz

Question #1 - Which filter pictured below has more pleats?
A. The filter on the left (Honda).
B. The filter on the right (K&N).
C. The lighting distorts the pleats. The photos should be taken in the air box, where it's dark.

http://dchealy.com/valk/gwfilters-pleats.jpg

Question #2 - Which filter has the most surface area?
A. The filter with 48% more pleats.
B. The filter with fewer pleats.
C. It's a trick question. The surface area is constantly changing due to temperature, humidity, and road conditions.

Question #3 - How is it possible for a filter with less surface area to flow more air?
A. It has larger holes (pores) in the filter media.
B. The filter is removed from the air box.
C. A special oil lubricates the air so it flows faster.

Question #4 - How do larger holes (pores) affect filtration?
A. Larger holes allow more dust and dirt to enter the engine.
B. Dust and dirt won't hurt anything as long as there's plenty of air.
C. What's filtration?

Please, save mankind:

https://www.knfilters.com/

https://powersports.honda.com/

But remember ", "A small temperature change or a small change in humidity can cause the mass of a paper filter to change by several grams."

Why can't people who don't want to blow for the extra dough just say " I don't want to spend the extrs $" and let it lie

[Ewreck]

I’m never changing mine so there.

[taxfree4]

I’m never changing mine so there.


I just bought K&N stock

[jm21ddd15]

This is fun like an oil thread. But SpencerPJ, back to your original post, yes the filter is dirty and needs replacing.

[F6Dave]

I just bought K&N stock

I think K&N is privately held. You may have been scammed by them again!

BTW you haven't posted any answers to the quiz questions.

[taxfree4]

I think K&N is privately held. You may have been scammed by them again!

BTW you haven't posted any answers to the quiz questions.

Wrong again, it is owned by Goldman Sachs, which shares are about $300 a piece, there you go "thinking" again, apparently, you know more than K&N AND Goldman Sachs. As far as your quiz it is arbitrary, like those tests you put up. I, nor anyone else, is here to answer your questions because only a gold standard test, which you have not cited, will answer all those questions. If Honda hasn't endorsed, advertised, even acknowledged the test why should I

[F6Dave]

Wrong again, it is owned by Goldman Sachs, which shares are about $300 a piece, there you go "thinking" again, apparently, you know more than K&N AND Goldman Sachs. As far as your quiz it is arbitrary, like those tests you put up. I, nor anyone else, is here to answer your questions because only a gold standard test, which you have not cited, will answer all those questions. If Honda hasn't endorsed, advertised, even acknowledged the test why should I

Goldman Sachs is a holding company. They own about a thousand companies, mostly in the Cayman Islands. K&N isn't listed on any exchange and is therefore considered privately held.

You still haven't answered any of the quiz. Question #1 is easy, and has nothing to do with any test. Hint: look at the photo.

[taxfree4]

Goldman Sachs is a holding company. They own about a thousand companies, mostly in the Cayman Islands. K&N isn't listed on any exchange and is therefore considered privately held.

You still haven't answered any of the quiz. Question #1 is easy, and has nothing to do with any test. Hint: look at the photo.

Holding company or not, GSachs, which is publicly held stock acquired K&N, not from the original private founders but from another investment group and, like any other investment when you put capital into that stock, you indirectly invest in all of its' holdings. Again, when Honda even acknowledges the test your questionnaire will gain any credibility. Right now you are fighting a losing battle, with yourself, convincing no one that the test you post is even remotely valid. Now instead of hard evidence you have gone to pictures, pictures are not evidence they NEED evidence to validate them, to back them up, what's next, finger painting.

[F6Dave]

Holding company or not, GSachs, which is publicly held stock acquired K&N, not from the original private founders but from another investment group and, like any other investment when you put capital into that stock, you indirectly invest in all of its' holdings. Again, when Honda even acknowledges the test your questionnaire will gain any credibility. Right now you are fighting a losing battle, with yourself, convincing no one that the test you post is even remotely valid. Now instead of hard evidence you have gone to pictures, pictures are not evidence they NEED evidence to validate them, to back them up, what's next, finger painting.

Wow, I hope you didn't take my comments personally. That wasn't my intent. I've enjoyed several of your posts, and was impressed by how you handled the aftermath of your accident, especially the legal hurdles. That struck a chord because 5 years ago, after 600,000+ miles of safe riding, I had an accident. Thankfully my insurance company was great, so I didn't have to battle with them, but there were other challenges I never imagined.

I mentioned in an earlier post that I'm a former user of washable, oiled air filters, including K&N. I believed they were great, but became concerned after hearing complaints about their filtering effectiveness. So I did a lot of research and ended up changing my opinion based on the new (to me) information.

These are amazing engines that can last for hundreds of thousands of miles with minimal maintenance. The filters you choose probably make little difference as few of us will ever wear a GL engine out. In fact, the same logic may apply to oil. I recently read a study by Blackstone Labs that reviewed over 10,000 oil analyses and concluded that the brand of oil makes no measurable difference. For decades I've used Mobil 1 and always recommended it to others. But I'm now considering trying a less expensive brand. The problem these days is finding the stuff. The shelves are half empty at my nearby Walmart.

[taxfree4]

Wow, I hope you didn't take my comments personally. That wasn't my intent. I've enjoyed several of your posts, and was impressed by how you handled the aftermath of your accident, especially the legal hurdles. That struck a chord because 5 years ago, after 600,000+ miles of safe riding, I had an accident. Thankfully my insurance company was great, so I didn't have to battle with them, but there were other challenges I never imagined.

I mentioned in an earlier post that I'm a former user of washable, oiled air filters, including K&N. I believed they were great, but became concerned after hearing complaints about their filtering effectiveness. So I did a lot of research and ended up changing my opinion based on the new (to me) information.

These are amazing engines that can last for hundreds of thousands of miles with minimal maintenance. The filters you choose probably make little difference as few of us will ever wear a GL engine out. In fact, the same logic may apply to oil. I recently read a study by Blackstone Labs that reviewed over 10,000 oil analyses and concluded that the brand of oil makes no measurable difference. For decades I've used Mobil 1 and always recommended it to others. But I'm now considering trying a less expensive brand. The problem these days is finding the stuff. The shelves are half empty at my nearby Walmart.

I couldn't take them personally because I don't know you. Difference of opinion is just that, no big deal. A good debate is good for everybody then you shake hands and have a beer. I did my own cases in US Tax Court and Federal District Court for years, hence the username, so my natural instinct is to pull apart evidence, it's in the DNA. Sometimes, I guess, I should just go past it, it's a process. No hard feelings at all. The meer fact we all have the same bike indicates our superior level of intelligence.

[Ewreck]

I’d like to hear about your court experience and the what/whys.

[taxfree4]

I’d like to hear about your court experience and the what/whys.

Too big a topic to go through on a forum, the paperwork is staggering. I always told people it is easier to pay than not to. I filed "zero" returns, perfectly legal but a lot of work, audits and court appearances. Being NY is a piggyback state, your federal calculation is your state calculation, you have to fight both.

[F6Dave]

Too big a topic to go through on a forum, the paperwork is staggering. I always told people it is easier to pay than not to. I filed "zero" returns, perfectly legal but a lot of work, audits and court appearances. Being NY is a piggyback state, your federal calculation is your state calculation, you have to fight both.

We don't need the transcript. Just a summary and the final ruling(s).

[taxfree4]

We don't need the transcript. Just a summary and the final ruling(s).

Unless you know what form 17A is, why it is needed, what a zero return is, why you can file it legally, what is income etc, etc it doesn't mean anything. There are no final rulings because as Chief Judge Carol Amon of the Federal District Court said to the IRS attorney "If Mr. (My last name) is correct, he wins the case". If that happened everyone would so she dismissed the case "without prejudice". It was a warning shot to the IRS to just leave me alone or they might have a problem, and they did. It goes in very deep. State court is a different argument. IRS Audit different tactic.

[F6Dave]

Unless you know what form 17A is, why it is needed, what a zero return is, why you can file it legally, what is income etc, etc it doesn't mean anything. There are no final rulings because as Chief Judge Carol Amon of the Federal District Court said to the IRS attorney "If Mr. (My last name) is correct, he wins the case". If that happened everyone would so she dismissed the case "without prejudice". It was a warning shot to the IRS to just leave me alone or they might have a problem, and they did. It goes in very deep. State court is a different argument. IRS Audit different tactic.

At least two of us were interested, and I'd think others may have been as well. However, since cases dismissed without prejudice can be re-filed, I understand that you might not want to comment on a public forum. We probably get visitors who have no interest in motorcycles.

[tenxxx]

A time and a place for everything.

[taxfree4]

At least two of us were interested, and I'd think others may have been as well. However, since cases dismissed without prejudice can be re-filed, I understand that you might not want to comment on a public forum. We probably get visitors who have no interest in motorcycles.

Unless you, the living soul, don't keep your money in banks, in any form whatsoever, work off the books, rent instead of own, or know how to file a UCC-1 against yourself, the fiction, it would be crazy to even contemplaye it. Here's just a hint of what I mean by how deep it goes. For fun give the 10 questions to your banker.

https://youtu.be/ZBeTcufNrzE

[taxfree4]

At least two of us were interested, and I'd think others may have been as well. However, since cases dismissed without prejudice can be re-filed, I understand that you might not want to comment on a public forum. We probably get visitors who have no interest in motorcycles.

Just to clarify I was the moving party in the case that was dismissed without prejudice.

[DaWadd]

Talk about a thread getting derailed.:shrug:

[taxfree4]

Talk about a thread getting derailed.:shrug:

That's for sure, let's talk about oil to really run this train into a ditch

[tenxxx]

This sounds like normal conversation.
But conversing with a lawyer while not on the clock...
Worth every minuet.

[taxfree4]

This sounds like normal conversation.
But conversing with a lawyer while not on the clock...
Worth every minuet.

Actually, like everyone else, I am an attorney in fact not in law. Only profession condemned in the bible...TWICE. You know why lawyers wear neckties ...keeps the foreskin down.

[willtill]

Just scoped out my air filter with one of those cheap azed Chyna remote cameras.. Probably 17K on the A/F since I last changed it. Not too bad:

(Pay no attention to the date/time stamp - it's not set and incorrect)

https://i.postimg.cc/6p8XTHyK/IMG-0001.jpg

The reason why I scoped it was because I started it this morning after it sat for about 5 days; and it did a weird dip in idle RPMs immediately thereafter. When I goosed it, it almost died on me and the exhaust was smelling rich. I was suspecting a rat bastard built a nest on top of the air filter hence; it was choking for air. Was not the case though. Took her on a long, hard run this afternoon and blew her cobwebs out.


Life is good.

[F6Dave]

That looks better than mine! I changed it last week at 47,040 miles. I have a half mile of dusty unpaved roads between my house and civilization, so that doesn't help.

As bad as it looks, you can see there's much cleaner media deeper in the pleats. Apparently, the sticky coating Honda uses lets the ridges work like a pre-filter, which may be why their filters can last so long. I've read that the OEM filters can easily last 40K to 50K miles, and a dealer told me he'd seen owners push them far past that with no ill effects.

I rode several hundred miles after the change, and there's no noticeable change in performance or fuel mileage. So the engine was still getting all the air it needed, which means I won't be doing this chore again for at least another 45,000 miles.

http://dchealy.com/valk/airfilter47k.jpg

[jm21ddd15]

That looks better than mine! I changed it last week at 47,040 miles. I have a half mile of dusty unpaved roads between my house and civilization, so that doesn't help.

As bad as it looks, you can see there's much cleaner media deeper in the pleats. Apparently, the sticky coating Honda uses lets the ridges work like a pre-filter, which may be why their filters can last so long. I've read that the OEM filters can easily last 40K to 50K miles, and a dealer told me he'd seen owners push them far past that with no ill effects.

I rode several hundred miles after the change, and there's no noticeable change in performance or fuel mileage. So the engine was still getting all the air it needed, which means I won't be doing this chore again for at least another 45,000 miles.

http://dchealy.com/valk/airfilter47k.jpg

Each to his own. But word of advice, don't believe everything you read. Some people say they can stretch an oil change out to 15K. I wouldn't risk that, or ride with a n air filter that looked like the one you displayed. Just my opinion. Ride safe!

[F6Dave]

Each to his own. But word of advice, don't believe everything you read. Some people say they can stretch an oil change out to 15K. I wouldn't risk that, or ride with a n air filter that looked like the one you displayed. Just my opinion. Ride safe!

I agree, and I'm pretty cautious because there's plenty of misinformation out there. So I research multiple sources before making any significant change. I also have my oil analyzed frequently and recently did so to make sure a change in filter brand caused no problems. While changing the filter I carefully inspected the inside of my airbox and it was spotless. And as I mentioned, neither mileage nor performance changed with the new filter, which indicates the old filter was still providing all the air the engine needed.

In addition to my F6B I also have 2 Valkyries that I've ridden over 280,000 miles. So I've changed a lot of air filters! The Valk's filter is similar in size and design. When new, I replaced those filters at 12,000 miles, as Honda recommends. They always looked pristine like the photo Willtill posted. So I did some research and found that some of Honda's recommendations are well outside of industry norms. Honda calls for a plug change at 16,000, but in modern engines spark plugs last far longer than that. The P-OAT coolant our bikes use is rated for 5 years/150,000 miles, but Honda says to change it at 24,000. And while automotive air filters typically last for 30,000 miles or more, Honda recommends replacement at 12,000, even though GL1800 filters are at least as large per liter of displacement. Other than the 8K oil change, some of Honda's service intervals appear to be carried over from older models without being updated to reflect current technology.