Electric Vehicles in Sturgis

[F6Dave]

This board is kind of dead so I'll post something. I rode up to the Black Hills last week but avoided the Sturgis crowds. Mostly. I couldn't resist riding into town for a few hours to check things out as it's always interesting. The crowds weren't too bad, unlike last year when traffic was gridlocked nearly everywhere. And the weather was HOT. My dash was reading 104 for a long stretch of US-85 in Wyoming.

Here's the closest thing I saw to an EV, a guitarist (pretty good) being followed by a guy wheeling his amplifier, powered by an AC Delco car battery.

http://dchealy.com/valk/sturgisev.jpg

[SpencerPJ]

I heard Sturgis was warm. I like the amp, wonder how long the battery could last?

I like this funny below, really agitates the EV lovers.



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[F6Dave]

I stayed at a Wyoming motel with a Tesla charging station. It got used fairly often, as it's a long way to another one in that part of the country. To his credit, Elon built an impressive charging network. None other comes close.

It got me curious so I looked up the electricity sources for Wyoming: 84.3% coal! And those superchargers run at 480 volts and draw 300 amps. I wonder how many Tesla owners know this.

[SpencerPJ]

Tesla owners are on a cloud, they don't care. I will say, I rode in a Tesla, damn they are quick and quiet.

[woody]

How much does it cost to replace Tesla batteries? I contacted our local Toyota dealer and asked the cost of replacing batteries in one of their vehicles and they would not tell me. I then contacted Honda and asked them the cost of replacement in their vehicle. Surprise surprise they also would not tell me.

[SpencerPJ]

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This should be a hint of the costs
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/ford-raises-prices-electric-f-150-pickup-amid-high-commodity-costs-2022-08-09/

[F6Dave]

Just as disturbing is the size and weight of the battery packs. 1,200 pounds for the Tesla. 1,800 for the F150 Lightning. And for the new Hummer? Over 2,900 pounds! Think about the wear on roads, and tires.

[tenxxx]

Our technology's are so old, and their making a lot of money from it.
As long as we sit by and let it happen, it will only get worse.

[F6Dave]

Battery technology is great. It's made phones, computers, and other personal devices possible. It revolutionized power tools, even larger tools like mowers and chain saws. It makes sense for smaller vehicles, including motorcycles and E-Bikes, especially for commuting in urban areas. But the last major breakthrough in battery technology was in 1991, when Sony commercialized lithium-ion chemistry. Since then capacity has increased very slowly.

So with modest power density (1/80 of gasoline) battery power quickly loses its appeal as vehicle size and travel distances increase. Battery packs weighing thousands of pounds are hard on roads, tires, and the environment.

But few people ask the most obvious question: where will we get the electricity for millions of new EVs? Our grid is at the breaking point. Blackouts have tripled in frequency since 2015 People literally froze to death in Texas just last year.

Clearly there won't be enough electricity for the 'EV transition'. Rationing will be the required, and is already underway in the UK. Many politicians (and automakers) are surely aware of this. Why are they so silent?

[willtill]

Battery technology is great. It's made phones, computers, and other personal devices possible. It revolutionized power tools, even larger tools like mowers and chain saws. It makes sense for smaller vehicles, including motorcycles and E-Bikes, especially for commuting in urban areas. But the last major breakthrough in battery technology was in 1991, when Sony commercialized lithium-ion chemistry. Since then capacity has increased very slowly.

So with modest power density (1/80 of gasoline) battery power quickly loses its appeal as vehicle size and travel distances increase. Battery packs weighing thousands of pounds are hard on roads, tires, and the environment.

But few people ask the most obvious question: where will we get the electricity for millions of new EVs? Our grid is at the breaking point. Blackouts have tripled in frequency since 2015 People literally froze to death in Texas just last year.

Clearly there won't be enough electricity for the 'EV transition'. Rationing will be the required, and is already underway in the UK. Many politicians (and automakers) are surely aware of this. Why are they so silent?

Because they're idiots?

[F6Dave]

Because they're idiots?

Some are. But some are fully aware that this 'energy transition' will limit mobility and other freedoms.

Here's a sample of what they may want. In the UK, mandated 'smart chargers' shut off from 8-11 AM and 4-10 PM. And when the grid is short on power, the chargers reverse flow and take power FROM your EV! Imagine the government siphoning gas out of your tank when others 'need' it more.

[SpencerPJ]

...

[F6Pilot]

Quite an interesting topic here. I drive a Tesla and it weighs in at 5381 pounds. I used to drive a 2003 Tahoe Z71 that weighed in at 5050 pounds. That said, how much extra wear on the roads do you believe that additional 330 pounds will produce?

I researched these things for a few years and made a choice to purchase. I am not a fanboy, still have my F150, and know most of my electricity currently comes from coal fired plants. I also know that there is no way a complete and immediate switch to EV is possible or even expected given our current grid. (I also work in the renewable energy space)

This kind of reminds me of the perceptions and opinions associated with the darkside debate, which I also tried and did not burst into flames as a result. :stirthepot:

If you have any additional questions, ask away.

[F6Dave]

As I said earlier, lithium ion (and similar chemistries) battery technology has been a revolution for personal devices and tools, and works great for smaller vehicles, especially when driven short distances. It's when the vehicles get large, like the new Hummer with a 3000 pound battery, that ICE power has a big advantage. Elon has built an impressive charging network. No other manufacturer even comes close. For that reason alone if I were interested in an EV I'd only consider a Tesla.

A few questions. What is the Tesla's primary use? Do you have a level 2 charger at home? Have you taken long, multiple day trips, and if so what was your charging experience?

[F6Pilot]

Yes, that Hummer is quite a beast. Tesla has certainly built the best charging network given they had about an eight year head start.

My primary use is commuting to work. I was burning about $450/month in fuel and now use an equivalent $30/month in electricity for the same mileage.

I do have a level 2 charger at my home and I simply plug in every evening when I get back to the house and charge it to 80% of capacity. That keeps me off of the Superchargers unless I am traveling.

I have taken one extended trip to Panama City from Chattanooga which took about 9 hours. It was my first extended trip and I initially suffered from range anxiety. The strategy, as mapped out by the software, is to arrive at the next charger with around 10-15% charge left, then charge just enough to get you to the next charger. They charge the fastest up to around 70-80% and then trickle off so that last 20% can take as long or longer than the first 80%. When traveling, it is just not worth the wait to top off. You charge fast and move on to the next stop. That range anxiety caused me to stay a little longer at a couple of the stops and grab a little more just in case. In all it was about 4 stops with the longest being 50 minutes (lunch break) and the remainder being around 20-30 each. While there I was able to charge at a Supercharger 5 miles up the road and saved about $400 in fuel that week.

In all it added a couple of hours to the travel time which were used for breakfast/lunch breaks. I have not considered a longer multi day trip yet but there are people doing it every day so who knows. I may do it one day.

[willtill]

Imagine if you carried a 5KW gas powered generator in the back of your EV's. That's convenience. :icon_biggrin:

[Willl]

F6Pilot, are you charging your batteries at home to 80% to increase the longevity of the batteries?
If so do you have a setting that shuts off the charger at 80%?

[F6Pilot]

Yes, they recommend daily charging to stay around 80% to reduce degradation. The only time I fully charge is if I anticipate an extended drive/trip. I set the value in the app on my phone which is connected to the car and sets the preferred max value.

[F6Pilot]

Imagine if you carried a 5KW gas powered generator in the back of your EV's. That's convenience. :icon_biggrin:

Maybe more along these lines...

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[F6Dave]

Imagine if you carried a 5KW gas powered generator in the back of your EV's. That's convenience. :icon_biggrin:

Actually, such a contraption is already being marketed! It's a generator/trailer to keep your EV going. At first I thought it was a joke, but apparently not. Why don't people just buy a hybrid?

https://gajitz.com/little-generator-trailer-lets-electric-cars-go-the-distance/ (https://gajitz.com/little-generator-trailer-lets-electric-cars-go-the-distance/?fs=e&s=cl)

[F6Dave]

most of my electricity currently comes from coal fired plants.
I was surprised to see that in Tennessee, nuclear provides most of the electricity. The major sources are nuclear (44%), nat gas (20%), hydro (11%), and coal (23%). Biomass, solar, and oil provide the other 2%. Source: https://www.electricrate.com/data-center/electricity-sources-by-state/

[F6Pilot]

My statement regarding coal was not literal, but rather in general. We have one of the lowest power costs in the nation as a result.

[willtill]

My statement regarding coal was not literal, but rather in general. We have one of the lowest power costs in the nation as a result.

Save me a bachelors cabin there somewhere. Deep in the woods. I need a getaway place when my wife retires. Seriously. :shhh:

[F6Pilot]

Hey Will, it's funny how many contacts I receive regarding moving to Tennessee. Reserve Bum moved just north of me in Riceville and George and Jody (Hocrod) were looking around a while back.

Plenty of places to hide or get lost around here. If you head this way, you need to bring some blue crab and a cannolis from Vaccaro's in Baltimore.

[F6Dave]

My statement regarding coal was not literal, but rather in general. We have one of the lowest power costs in the nation as a result.

That's a balanced mix of electricity sources. I can see how your rates have stayed low. And it's very clean, with 75% from nuclear, nat gas, and hydro.

It should be interesting to see what happens to electric rates now that natural gas and coal prices have more than tripled from just a year ago. Those commodities provide over 2/3 or our electricity, but utilities have long term contracts which have shielded ratepayers from the worst of the increases. As those contracts expire Americans are in for some shocking utility bills this winter.

[F6Pilot]

That's a balanced mix of electricity sources. I can see how your rates have stayed low. And it's very clean, with 75% from nuclear, nat gas, and hydro.

It should be interesting to see what happens to electric rates now that natural gas and coal prices have more than tripled from just a year ago. Those commodities provide over 2/3 or our electricity, but utilities have long term contracts which have shielded ratepayers from the worst of the increases. As those contracts expire Americans are in for some shocking utility bills this winter.

It will be interesting to watch utilities as the EV market continues to heat up and demand increases. Here is an older 2016 article regarding TVA, the main reason the region has such low rates.

Balanced Fuel Portfolio Helps Reduce Ratepayer Costs (tva.com) (https://www.tva.com/Energy/Our-Power-System/Balanced-Fuel-Portfolio-Helps-Reduce-Ratepayer-Costs#:~:text=TVA%20balances%20its%20generating%20 portfolio%20to%20reduce%20carbon,customers%20serve d%20by%20TVA%20and%20local%20power%20companies.)

[F6Dave]

I hear plenty about the booming EV market, but other than Teslas I see very few EVs on the road. That's likely because EVs are rarely a primary vehicle and driven far less than ICE powered vehicles. I read that a typical EV logs less than 5,000 miles per year.

Even if EVs never dominate the market, they should pay their share of road construction and maintenance. Many bureaucrats like the idea of taxing drivers based on tracking devices. That's intrusive and open to abuse. The government tracks us too much already. I'd prefer a taxing scheme similar to gasoline taxes, which worked well for many decades. Simply require both public and home chargers to be metered separately, at a higher rate. A separate physical meter wouldn't even be required as the chargers could log usage and communicate it to the utility company. This would allow EV drivers to help pay for roads without having the government track their movements. The UK recently implemented a similar requirement.

Of course, rising electricity rates due to skyrocketing coal and natural gas prices, along with additional road taxes tacked on to the charging cost will significantly increase the cost of EV ownership. That will make EV ownership less attractive.

[tenxxx]

I have to fill out the same form every year at the license bureau about weather my 2009 grand cherokee is electric or not.
If it was electric, it would cost me $200 more. If it was hybrid, It would only cost $100 more.
They want us all driving EV's, but their gonna charge the crap out of us in the process.
The more we transition to total electric the more it will cost.

[jm21ddd15]

I couldn't imagine having to plann a long trip, and having to schedule places to stop for a "recharge". Heck, when I take off on a week or two on the bike, I don't even make ANY motel rsvp in advance. Now, I see California, has just passed a law, outlawing gas powered cars after 2035. Glad I don't live there.

[F6Dave]

Now, I see California, has just passed a law, outlawing gas powered cars after 2035. Glad I don't live there.

Several states, including Colorado where I live, have adopted California's vehicle standards. So gas powered vehicles will likely be banned in other states as well. Most people are completely unaware of how radical the 'green' agenda is, and how much of it being implemented. Here's the list of 'California Clones':

Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Mexico (2011 model year and later), New York, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Vermont, and Washington (2009 model year and later), as well as the District of Columbia.

[SpencerPJ]

Several states, including Colorado where I live, have adopted California's vehicle standards. So gas powered vehicles will likely be banned in other states as well. Most people are completely unaware of how radical the 'green' agenda is, and how much of it being implemented. Here's the list of 'California Clones':

Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Mexico (2011 model year and later), New York, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Vermont, and Washington (2009 model year and later), as well as the District of Columbia.

Hmm seems to follow a political agenda, :)

[F6Dave]

Hmm seems to follow a political agenda, :)
Yes, lots of blue states. I'm a bit surprised to see Pennsylvania on the list.

[tenxxx]

That would put the nail in the coffin for the USSA.
There would be HELL to pay if they try....

[F6Dave]

That would put the nail in the coffin for the USSA.
There would be HELL to pay if they try....

That's what some of the zealots want. They envision a socialist paradise were everyone lives in apartments and rides a bus to work. Interestingly motorcycles are never mentioned in their plans, not even electric motorcycles.

[willtill]

That would put the nail in the coffin for the USSA.
There would be HELL to pay if they try....

The nails are already being hammered into the coffin. There is no one to stop it and there is no hell to pay. The country is already burning. We have lost the Republic with irresponsible spending and nonsensical policies from both sides.

Kinda unrelated but I made a decision today to apply for my SSA benefits. I was going to wait until full retirement age but... with the billions being gifted to Ukraine and elsewhere; with the latest forgiveness of student loans by Bidet... I am done, I've had enough. Time to sit in the chair and watch our once great country burn away.

I really feel sorry for you here with children. I most sincerely do.

[F6Dave]

I read that in October, the UK will increase electric rates to $0.61 per KWH, up from $0.25 just a year ago. The government there caps rates, but so many utilities went bankrupt last year that they raised the cap earlier this year, and are doing it again.

This will raise the charging cost for a Tesla to over 20 cents per mile. That's about what I'm currently paying to fuel my F150, and considerably more than my car or motorcycles. We still pay about $0.15/KWH for electricity here in the US, but Europe is showing us how fast rates can climb when you let a Swedish teenager dictate energy policy.

[F6Pilot]

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