Computer re-set with aftermarket pipes/air filter

[opas ride]

Seeing a lot of pro/con info last couple days on the site under "what exhaust are you running"...What is the correct answer to this question if anyone really knows??..I am running Cobra's and K&N filter installed by the dealer at pick-up time and bike seems to run great..Appreciate an up-date to this issue if someone would post the "real world" answer...Thanks

[Hornblower]

Seeing a lot of pro/con info last couple days on the site under "what exhaust are you running"...What is the correct answer to this question if anyone really knows??..I am running Cobra's and K&N filter installed by the dealer at pick-up time and bike seems to run great..Appreciate an up-date to this issue if someone would post the "real world" answer...Thanks

I can give you the sequence given to me by Jimmy at Torq Master Pipes as follows:

1. Disconnect the battery negative lead from battery.

2. Key on.

3. Touch the starter button as if trying to start the engine. (helps discharge any residual e- the system.

4. Key off.

5. Wait about 15 minutes......

6. FROM THIS POINT FORWARD DO NOT TOUCH OR TWIST THROTTLE (until you go riding).

7. Reconnect battery neg. to batt.

8. Key on.

9. Touch/push starter button to start engine. DO NOT TOUCH/TWIST THROTTLE.

10.. Allow to idle for 10 mins (untill fan kicks on). DO NOT TOUCH/TWIST THROTTLE.

[bob109]

I can give you the sequence given to me by Jimmy at Torq Master Pipes as follows:

1. Disconnect the battery negative lead from battery.

2. Key on.

3. Touch the starter button as if trying to start the engine. (helps discharge any residual e- the system.

4. Key off.

5. Wait about 15 minutes......

6. FROM THIS POINT FORWARD DO NOT TOUCH OR TWIST THROTTLE (until you go riding).

7. Reconnect battery neg. to batt.

8. Key on.

9. Touch/push starter button to start engine. DO NOT TOUCH/TWIST THROTTLE.

10.. Allow to idle for 10 mins (untill fan kicks on). DO NOT TOUCH/TWIST THROTTLE.

+1

Honda uses 3D Mapping and this same procedure was used to re-calibrate the infamous 1800 VTV. After following the described procedure turn off the ignition and then restart the bike. You will have re-booted the ECM:041:

[Steve 0080]

Same for Rune…...

[GiddyupF6B]

But the question remains......is this necessary to do after installing pipes or a K&N? Doesn't the ecu adapt automatically to any changes made?

[bob109]

But the question remains......is this necessary to do after installing pipes or a K&N? Doesn't the ecu adapt automatically to any changes made?

Like a computer, which receives a new program up-date, it recommends you restart your computer. Same for the ECM, as it has received some new info from the Oxygen, TPS, Crank and MAP Censors it has to re-boot to theses new parameters:041: The procedure which has been described does just that:cheers:

[opas ride]

+1..That is exactly my point..Is it really necessary to do this procedure as my bike runs fine to me..Maybe the dealer did the re-set before I picked it up as I don't know...I will try to find out when I contact them.......

[98valk]

Just to beat a dead horse;

Is "re-boot" meant as "reset", and back to factory? Or is it a "re-calibrate", which would adjust to any changes, such as variation in sensors, variations in altitude, K&N vs stock, etc?

I ask because I am at 5000 ft. Bike was probably cal'd at sea levelish.

Bike runs great, but greater is fun, too.

I'm wondering if it could affect gas mileage by running a bit leaner during the open loop time (if it was re-cal'd vs reset).

With that said, I do not have the cold hesitation problem. Maybe because I am running a bit rich during the open loop period.

TIA

[bstroh59]

Just to beat a dead horse;

Is "re-boot" meant as "reset", and back to factory? Or is it a "re-calibrate", which would adjust to any changes, such as variation in sensors, variations in altitude, K&N vs stock, etc?

I ask because I am at 5000 ft. Bike was probably cal'd at sea levelish.

Bike runs great, but greater is fun, too.

I'm wondering if it could affect gas mileage by running a bit leaner during the open loop time (if it was re-cal'd vs reset).

With that said, I do not have the cold hesitation problem. Maybe because I am running a bit rich during the open loop period.

TIA
When you head up into the mountains, it is a good idea to do the same as above, with the exception of disconnecting the battery.

If your bike is shut off and cooled down, start the motor and don't touch the throttle. Let it warm up to where the fans kick on, then off. Shut off the key, restart and you are good to go. Basically what you've done, is a forced recalibration of the ECM.

[ED209]

Ok, I got to have some questions answered here :duck:

Does anybody have the stock a/f ratio chart on a dyno sheet or what have you. Yamaha is notorious for running their bikes very rich at idle to very lean at top end. You just cant fix it without a PC aftermarket piggybacked on the ecu. Reboot or not it just doesn't have enough parameter area to cover the addition of a K&N filter or an exhaust.

So Honda has 3D mapping. Ok I looked it up and it doesn't say how much it will repair in the a/f mixture, so how much will it repair?

Plus, how would you know if you are or not in the stoic area of a/f mix ? Wouldn't one need a sniffer done on a dyno throughout the rev range ?

Not trying to stir the pot, just curious of the a/f mix across the board after adding a very breathable air filter and exhaust, is it realy safe, has anybody an a/f map so I can see it?

Is this ecu reprogrammable by a Honda Rep ?

Extremely concerned here with this 20k motor. :yikes:

[SHOCKER7718]

I can give you the sequence given to me by Jimmy at Torq Master Pipes as follows:

1. Disconnect the battery negative lead from battery.

2. Key on.

3. Touch the starter button as if trying to start the engine. (helps discharge any residual e- the system.

4. Key off.

5. Wait about 15 minutes......

6. FROM THIS POINT FORWARD DO NOT TOUCH OR TWIST THROTTLE (until you go riding).

7. Reconnect battery neg. to batt.

8. Key on.

9. Touch/push starter button to start engine. DO NOT TOUCH/TWIST THROTTLE.

10.. Allow to idle for 10 mins (untill fan kicks on). DO NOT TOUCH/TWIST THROTTLE.

Thanks for the info going to try this when I get my new rush pipes !!

[53driver]

....bugger. I twisted the throttle.....
I guess we'll try again tomorrow.

[terrydj]

A mate of mine yesterday while checking out the bike also asked the same questions about exhausts
He races V8 Sprint cars and did a tour in the states with a premier Nascar team as they needed a bit of a hand????
Says that aftermarket exhausts on bikes are a waste of time and basically cut horsepower.
He's been an Australian Motorcycle champion in his days maybe 6 times before he got into cars.
Says that basically the Major motorcycle manufacturers spend maybe 100's of millions of dollars on exhausts trying to get the maximum horsepower out of the machine while still complying with Californian Pollution laws, maybe the toughest in the world. And nothing gets into America on the road without doing this???
Says that maybe an aftermarket exhaust may work if yah get the chip with it but most likely the chip will only stop the backfiring and hiccups.
Says the way to do it that works is to do the 3 things that work to get the bike to go.
Firstly get the bike to breath
Second get the bike to go bang when it should (Aftermarket) ignition system
Then do the exhausts, something like Vance and Hinze that guarantees performance
With the help of a wiz kid on a dino maybe a 30% increase in horsepower.
Says that everything else is a wank
And he should know he's got more Australian Motorcycle and Car Australian champion ships on the wall than I've had????????:icon_cool:

[53driver]

Basically all correct Terry.
Mostly all stock systems are California (CARB) Compliant.
Many aftermarket pipes are not and will fail a California inspection.
But if one doesn't live in California......one can do some pretty neat stuff.

Now, living in Pennsylvania, the bike's are inspected yearly, but my '95 HD has been "grandfathered" into the older category of not requiring an emissions test.
For those guys living in Florida, there is no emissions test and I don't even think there is an annual inspection, so you can pretty much do what you want.
Everything varies by state.

The Thunderheader exhaust on my HD is not CARB compliant.
The air system has been reworked.
The carb has been replaced and has been re-jetted.
She's been dyno'd & tweaked repeatedly until her 80 cu inch (1310 cc) Evo motor produced 80 hp and that was in 2009. Not bad for a '95 HD.
Without adding a blower, that's the best she's gonna do.

I'm sure that the F6B could be tweaked for more horsepower with an aftermarket exhaust, but I do not know what can be done to the air intake, again, short of adding a blower (turbo or supercharger).
The intake maybe "open" enough to lend to some tweaking of the exhaust system and chip, but with most F6Bs still under warranty, I don't think anyone has gone to a "total performance" upgrade - yet.

Will be VERY cool when it happens though.....

[srt8-in-largo]

+1..That is exactly my point..Is it really necessary to do this procedure as my bike runs fine to me..Maybe the dealer did the re-set before I picked it up as I don't know...I will try to find out when I contact them.......

No; completely unnecessary. If your bike runs good, then call it a day and enjoy it.

If you were a pro racer and you had access to ignition, fuel, and other tables... and you needed to get the last 5% of performance... then sure, a dyno session with a qualified tuner writing a custom tune may make more power with just breather mods... but resetting an ECM does nothing.

The GL1800 actually uses a couple of "3D" maps, one for low-load low-throttle and one for high-load high throttle. These maps are hard-coded and no reset, restart, or re-anything else is gonna change them. The ECM reads a set of basic inputs, checks the correction and control input sensors, and then generates a set of outputs to control ignition and fueling.

Whether your ECM is reset or not, it will still use the same set of sensors, in the same way, and it will still use the same tables to operate your engine.


https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-qvMCWv1LHRc/VEXIAK70IBI/AAAAAAAACLw/4EulvFSMUwM/s800/PFI%25202.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-NJPuvPecPso/VESFjEd2EoI/AAAAAAAACLg/0VKaTnatmQM/s800/PFI.jpg



But the question remains......is this necessary to do after installing pipes or a K&N? Doesn't the ecu adapt automatically to any changes made?

Our ECM uses sensor input to adjust ignition and fueling, not adapt; that's something different. An adaptive ECM "learns" a particular driving style to help predict the engine control outputs.



+1

Honda uses 3D Mapping and this same procedure was used to re-calibrate the infamous 1800 VTV. After following the described procedure turn off the ignition and then restart the bike. You will have re-booted the ECM:041:

Bob, the procedure above doesn't recallibrate. Recalibrating an ECM means that the map profiles in the pics I posted above have been re-written (re-shaped)... and that doesn't happen with a reset. It better not!



Just to beat a dead horse;

Is "re-boot" meant as "reset", and back to factory? Or is it a "re-calibrate", which would adjust to any changes, such as variation in sensors, variations in altitude, K&N vs stock, etc?

I ask because I am at 5000 ft. Bike was probably cal'd at sea levelish.

Bike runs great, but greater is fun, too.

I'm wondering if it could affect gas mileage by running a bit leaner during the open loop time (if it was re-cal'd vs reset).

With that said, I do not have the cold hesitation problem. Maybe because I am running a bit rich during the open loop period.

TIA

Back to factory? If you're not running a Guhl tune, you ARE at factory.

Reseting the ECM is vastly different from recalibrating it; Guhl is the only person I know of who is doing commercial recalibrations for the average Joe.

The calibration in this bike, or for that matter, in any production vehicle on the road, is not cal'd at sea level, nor is it cal'd at any other single altitude. OEM tuners go to GREAT lengths to create a single tune that is the best combination to work in ALL environmental conditions worldwide; high, low, hot, cold, dry, and humid.

Guhl could create a tune optimized for elevation, if he were so inclined $, but reseting the factory tune means that you are still running the factory tune (i.e. nothing is different).



When you head up into the mountains, it is a good idea to do the same as above, with the exception of disconnecting the battery.

If your bike is shut off and cooled down, start the motor and don't touch the throttle. Let it warm up to where the fans kick on, then off. Shut off the key, restart and you are good to go. Basically what you've done, is a forced recalibration of the ECM.

Exactly how does the above procedure help a bike at elevation? And how does it recalibrate the ECM?

I'm open to the idea that I may be missing something... but I don't believe that procedure will do anything to help with elevation; how could it?



Ok, I got to have some questions answered here :duck:

Does anybody have the stock a/f ratio chart on a dyno sheet or what have you. Yamaha is notorious for running their bikes very rich at idle to very lean at top end. You just cant fix it without a PC aftermarket piggybacked on the ecu. Reboot or not it just doesn't have enough parameter area to cover the addition of a K&N filter or an exhaust.

So Honda has 3D mapping. Ok I looked it up and it doesn't say how much it will repair in the a/f mixture, so how much will it repair?

Plus, how would you know if you are or not in the stoic area of a/f mix ? Wouldn't one need a sniffer done on a dyno throughout the rev range ?

Not trying to stir the pot, just curious of the a/f mix across the board after adding a very breathable air filter and exhaust, is it realy safe, has anybody an a/f map so I can see it?

Is this ecu reprogrammable by a Honda Rep ?

Extremely concerned here with this 20k motor. :yikes:

Valid concerns... but I'd be godsmacked if you can show me a filter and exhaust mod that will throw an OEM tune out of range. Maybe on a newer platform, but not on a platform that has been on the road for 15 years.

Tail pipe sniffers are for folks who are not serious about tuning engines. The AFR sensor needs to be pre-cat, not after. Even if you're running cat-less it needs to be much closer to the exhaust port. If you're not at stoich at idle, you'll know by the smell. If you ARE at stoich at high throttle, you'll know by having your engine blown.

Honda won't tune your bike but Guhl will. Try checking some of the Guhl threads or maybe Guhl's website for before and after a/f ratios on some dyno sheets that have been shared.

[terrydj]

Basically all correct Terry.
Mostly all stock systems are California (CARB) Compliant.
Many aftermarket pipes are not and will fail a California inspection.
But if one doesn't live in California......one can do some pretty neat stuff.

.

Mate I ran a stroker for maybe 20 years. A 74 FL stripped and full of S&S with a Barnett and out to 93.
No how important it is to do the three things together and topped off with a Dyno
No idea about the modern stuff
But I do know if yah fool with it and it can smoke the rear wheel like my old shovel in second on standard and not on Av Gas then your on a winner
And in Australia we have a decibel limit of 93
your off the road if its louder:icon_cool:

[53driver]

And in Australia we have a decibel limit of 93
you're off the road if its louder...

That would be very problematic for a Thunderheader.....

Just curious:
What is the Aussie police procedure for taking dB readings?
What distance from the pipes?
Is the decibel meter "flat", "A", or "C" weighted?
At idle? Or with a throttle twist? Certain RPM?

[53driver]

SRT-8,
I understand your post below - got it, no sweat. Thanks!

So.....what does the ECM "reset" function do?
And why/when would I do it?

[terrydj]

That would be very problematic for a Thunderheader.....

Just curious:
What is the Aussie police procedure for taking dB readings?
What distance from the pipes?
Is the decibel meter "flat", "A", or "C" weighted?
At idle? Or with a throttle twist? Certain RPM?

Mate normally 45 degree angle maybe 10 metres away and a drive/ride by
Also Exhausts have to be stamped with the Aussie approval stamp
No stamp and bike is off the road, like cant be ridden, trailered home??
But unlike Calafornia we still have 2 stroke lawnmowers:icon_cool:

[53driver]

Mate normally 45 degree angle maybe 10 metres away and a drive/ride by
Also Exhausts have to be stamped with the Aussie approval stamp
No stamp and bike is off the road, like cant be ridden, trailered home??
But unlike California we still have 2 stroke lawnmowers:icon_cool:

Copy. That sounds like the testing for the stamp of approval....

What happens here in my portion of PA, New Hope to be specific, is the nice policeman will pull you over at a "Motorcycle Only Checkpoint" and ask to see your license, registration and proof of insurance. Meanwhile, you haven't been told what the matter is. He will then take his "calibrated" dB meter, put it at a "standard distance" (which varies from one badge to another) and take the loudest reading he can get and then cite you.
My specific story:
I had North Carolina plates (legally - out of state military) on the FLSTN and I got the "Boy, you pretty far from home, ain'cha?"
I responded, "No, sir, about 7 miles or so from my home."
He comes back with "What are these NC plates doing here?"
I then informed him that I am military, currently residing out-of-state, and produced my Military ID. The military ID sticker on the windshield 'escaped' him.
He then asked if I was a Reservist, and I pointed to where it said Active Duty on the ID in his hand.
He then said "Oh, a Lieutenant Colonel? Marines? You must think you're something special, doncha? Well up here, we have noise regulations and your pipes are too loud."
I asked him for the dB reading and what the statute limits were for this area. I asked him if the dB meter was to be set to Flat, A or C weights. (all industry standards)
He couldn't answer any of those questions - he just "knew" that my pipes were too loud.
I told him I would look up the regs & standards for measuring and that I would ensure future compliance.
I asked for my papers back and told him to have a nice day, and rode off, quietly.....
Didn't want him to ask about my Texas Driver's license or my PA CC permit.

So if someone "tweaks" their "Aussie approved" pipes, and the constabulary think it needs re-testing, what happens?
You get pulled over?
Then what?

[terrydj]

Copy. That sounds like the testing for the stamp of approval....

What happens here in my portion of PA, New Hope to be specific, is the nice policeman will pull you over at a "Motorcycle Only Checkpoint" and ask to see your license, registration and proof of insurance. Meanwhile, you haven't been told what the matter is. He will then take his "calibrated" dB meter, put it at a "standard distance" (which varies from one badge to another) and take the loudest reading he can get and then cite you.
My specific story:
I had North Carolina plates (legally - out of state military) on the FLSTN and I got the "Boy, you pretty far from home, ain'cha?"
I responded, "No, sir, about 7 miles or so from my home."
He comes back with "What are these NC plates doing here?"
I then informed him that I am military, currently residing out-of-state, and produced my Military ID. The military ID sticker on the windshield 'escaped' him.
He then asked if I was a Reservist, and I pointed to where it said Active Duty on the ID in his hand.
He then said "Oh, a Lieutenant Colonel? Marines? You must think you're something special, doncha? Well up here, we have noise regulations and your pipes are too loud."
I asked him for the dB reading and what the statute limits were for this area. I asked him if the dB meter was to be set to Flat, A or C weights. (all industry standards)
He couldn't answer any of those questions - he just "knew" that my pipes were too loud.
I told him I would look up the regs & standards for measuring and that I would ensure future compliance.
I asked for my papers back and told him to have a nice day, and rode off, quietly.....
Didn't want him to ask about my Texas Driver's license or my PA CC permit.

So if someone "tweaks" their "Aussie approved" pipes, and the constabulary think it needs re-testing, what happens?
You get pulled over?
Then what?

Mate yah then have to take the bike in to an approved whatever and they say whatever and put it on paper
Mates who build bikes reckon that soon the bikes will be photographed when they get a roadworthy and when pulled up the Police will check the photo against the actual bike???????:no:

When I was in the service and pulled up, it was basically a how yah going and I was off?
And mate you've served with Aussies so yah know what hows yah going means :icon_cool:

[53driver]

When I was in the service and pulled up, it was basically a how yah going and I was off?
And mate you've served with Aussies so yah know what hows yah going means :icon_cool:

Sometimes you get that with a military ID, sometimes not. I'm about 50/50 getting a 'how yah going' from the constabulary.
Other times....well. :icon_redface:

[Limoles]

SRT8-IN-LARGO - Great explanation , based on the solid knowledge .

[53driver]

SRT-8,
I understand your post below - got it, no sweat. Thanks!

So.....what does the ECM "reset" function do?
And why/when would I do it?

My question got lost in the works here.....

If the mapping is all the same and nothing changes, why/when would this procedure be accomplished?

[srt8-in-largo]

Sorry about that! Yes the mapping is still the same and the points on the map being used get adjusted (slightly) by changes sensed by the correction and control sensors. A reset will not hurt anything, but after only a change of exhaust and an ECM reset, the map points will re-converge to the same place as if a reset was not performed at all.

A reset should be performed if a new ECM is installed or if any sensors have been replaced. A new sensor will behave a little differently than, for example, an oxygen sensor that has 100,000 miles of carbon build up on it. Or if a sensor has been slowly failing over time, this may cause the mapping to diverge to a set of map points that will be quite different from where a fresh sensor will point to. Resetting the ECM will put it in a known and tested "safe" location; not resetting when replacing sensors could result in a rough running bike until enough cycles have been run for the corrections to fix things.

A great example for all of this is how the engine uses the barometric pressure sensor. Oxygen content in the air that the engine breathes is very different at sea level and at high altitudes. These differences affect air-fuel ratio (AFR) and, in turn, that affects performance, fuel economy, and emissions. The baro sensor causes mapping corrections that maintain the right AFR wherever in the world you may be riding.

[srt8-in-largo]

Just to clarify my position, even though I believe a reset is not mandatory, I think a vendor is 100% correct to do this after an exhaust change. It's nothing more than a safety procedure to make sure the bike has zero chance of rough running until the sensors get used to the mod.

[53driver]

Sorry about that! Yes the mapping is still the same and the points on the map being used get adjusted (slightly) by changes sensed by the correction and control sensors. A reset will not hurt anything, but after only a change of exhaust and an ECM reset, the map points will re-converge to the same place as if a reset was not performed at all.

A reset should be performed if a new ECM is installed or if any sensors have been replaced. A new sensor will behave a little differently than, for example, an oxygen sensor that has 100,000 miles of carbon build up on it. Or if a sensor has been slowly failing over time, this may cause the mapping to diverge to a set of map points that will be quite different from where a fresh sensor will point to. Resetting the ECM will put it in a known and tested "safe" location; not resetting when replacing sensors could result in a rough running bike until enough cycles have been run for the corrections to fix things.

A great example for all of this is how the engine uses the barometric pressure sensor. Oxygen content in the air that the engine breathes is very different at sea level and at high altitudes. These differences affect air-fuel ratio (AFR) and, in turn, that affects performance, fuel economy, and emissions. The baro sensor causes mapping corrections that maintain the right AFR wherever in the world you may be riding.

Thanks. No apologies necessary. I was just confused on what this actually did - new components of the ECM stock is logical.

[CoCoKola]

Thanks. No apologies necessary. I was just confused on what this actually did - new components of the ECM stock is logical.

Interesting read all. I have a computer background, so the way i interpret what I'm reading is there is a procedure that, if it meets a criteria set by the manufacture, will set thresholds stored in rewritable memory for certain sensors used to make decisions. For example, low and high limits from an o2 sensor. These are used to 'calibrate' a cold engine from a hot one. These low high limits are then used for a look up on a 3d table created by mother honda that sets air / fuel mixture points based on the various sensors during subsequent use of the engine. Example, a new o2 sensor is installed.

Does this sound fairly accurate?

[53driver]

Interesting read all. I have a computer background, so the way i interpret what I'm reading is there is a procedure that, if it meets a criteria set by the manufacture, will set thresholds stored in rewritable memory for certain sensors used to make decisions. For example, low and high limits from an o2 sensor. These are used to 'calibrate' a cold engine from a hot one. These low high limits are then used for a look up on a 3d table created by mother honda that sets air / fuel mixture points based on the various sensors during subsequent use of the engine. Example, a new o2 sensor is installed.

Does this sound fairly accurate?

Yes. :icon_mrgreen: