F6B To The Dark Side

[bob109]

Since taking delivery of my F6B in late April I've been working on acquiring the components (spare rear rim/car tire) for my switch to the Dark Side. Yesterday the UPS Truck arrived with a nice Directional General G-Max AS-03, 195/55R16. The tire has a 480 Tread-wear rating along with A Traction and A Temperature ratings. The measured tread depth is 10.5 32's. I'll be off to my local Repair Garage this morning where I'll have the tire mounted. I do my own "static balancing" to assure it's done right and after that's complete I'll be applying several coats of Black PlastiDip to the rim before install.

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[Texas TC]

Good luck, Bob. Looks like a great choice in tire. A word of caution on Plasti Dip. I love the stuff and have used it on several applications. I would be a bit concerned about rock chips marring the black finish. I have chipped my drink holder a few times. It is simple to simply touch up because it is easy to remove from the console. A wheel might be a bit more difficult. Powder coating the wheel would be a much better, yet more expensive and time consuming option.

Either way, have fun with your project.

[MichaelG]

:shock:, okay Bob, I am listening. Please keep me informed, either through the forum or a PM, to let me know anything and everything you can about your experiences with this tire on this F6B. I am more than willing to...learn.:shock:

As for TexasTC's idea of powder-coating the wheel, I have had that done on all 3 of my GL1800 Wings, and my local powder-coating company charges me 100 bucks per wheel. I am happy with that. With the powder-coating, you know it is a good hasrd surface, and the wheel cleans up easily.

[bob109]

Good luck, Bob. Looks like a great choice in tire. A word of caution on Plasti Dip. I love the stuff and have used it on several applications. I would be a bit concerned about rock chips marring the black finish. I have chipped my drink holder a few times. It is simple to simply touch up because it is easy to remove from the console. A wheel might be a bit more difficult. Powder coating the wheel would be a much better, yet more expensive and time consuming option.

Either way, have fun with your project.

Thanks Tom!

I opted for the PlastiDip as a quick and easy way to coat the brushed finish on the wheel. I visited You-tube where there where several good videos on the application of PD to car wheels. There's one where no masking was done to the tire. Simply spray and peel off any overspray from the rubber:icon_wink:

[bob109]

:shock:, okay Bob, I am listening. Please keep me informed, either through the forum or a PM, to let me know anything and everything you can about your experiences with this tire on this F6B. I am more than willing to...learn.:shock:

As for TexasTC's idea of powder-coating the wheel, I have had that done on all 3 of my GL1800 Wings, and my local powder-coating company charges me 100 bucks per wheel. I am happy with that. With the powder-coating, you know it is a good hasrd surface, and the wheel cleans up easily.

Doc:

Thanks for the advice on the powder-coating. I have a local company, Sterling Products, who does powder-c and may go that route in the future.

I promise that I'll keep some very detailed records of my experience with the G-MAC CT. I have a Laser Thermometer that will be used for capturing tire temp after low/high speed riding. I'll perform that procedure on the current Bridgestone and have that info for future comparison. Along with the install mileage/date, the capturing of tread depth will be recorded every 1K miles. I initially plan on taking the bike to the nearest large parking lot for some repeated slow turn maneuvers. I like to get a feel for the tire before blazing out on the highways. Like a MT, assuring the "mold release agents" are scrubbed off will be another first on the list. Usually while the tire is in the static balancer I'll rotate the tire and hit it with some course emery cloth by hand.

Additional photos will be added to this post as time/things progress.

P.S. If and when you publish that book put me first on your list for a "Autographed Copy":icon_lol:

[ghostrider]

Put me on second :icon_biggrin:

Btw for some more interesting reading, Neil Peart the drummer for "Rush" also has a series of interesting books about his motorcycle adventures. He rides his BMW in between shows as he travels around the world.

[MichaelG]

Doc:

Thanks for the advice on the powder-coating. I have a local company, Sterling Products, who does powder-c and may go that route in the future.

I promise that I'll keep some very detailed records of my experience with the G-MAC CT. I have a Laser Thermometer that will be used for capturing tire temp after low/high speed riding. I'll perform that procedure on the current Bridgestone and have that info for future comparison. Along with the install mileage/date, the capturing of tread depth will be recorded every 1K miles. I initially plan on taking the bike to the nearest large parking lot for some repeated slow turn maneuvers. I like to get a feel for the tire before blazing out on the highways. Like a MT, assuring the "mold release agents" are scrubbed off will be another first on the list. Usually while the tire is in the static balancer I'll rotate the tire and hit it with some course emery cloth by hand.

Additional photos will be added to this post as time/things progress.

P.S. If and when you publish that book put me first on your list for a "Autographed Copy":icon_lol:

Bob, I did the same kind of laser thermo testing on the Dunlop tires during the entire eyar of '03, when they used me as a tester. it really helps to use that laser thermometer. You really sound like you do know what you are doing with tire scrubbing and testing, and that is good for US, as we get to see your results. If truth be told, I would like to go to a CT, but the only real concern I have is sidewall stability and durability in the long run. If I can get past that hurdle, and be convinced that a CT will be stable at high speeds, and that the sidewall stress will not cause it to blow out on me at speed, then I may be a convert.

Re: the powder-c wheels, I have had very good success with what they refer to as 90% high gloss. On the F6B, it may make more sense to go with a flat black, but on my 3 different 1800 Wings, which were all the Titanium color bike...I went with 90% high gloss Black. It is unfortunate that the casting and finish of the GL1800 wheels is so bad compared to what the GL1500 wheels were. The GL1500 wheels were so smooth, and a very good finish. But when the GL1800's came out, riders were immediately upset about the course finish on the wheels, which caused a lot of riders to either have their wheels chromed, or powder-c. While I am not known for having a clean or polished bike...it does make cleanup much easier for all the road grime and brake dust on the wheel surface.

The rear wheel is very easy to have done, with only the need to replace the valve stem (it needs to be removed to do the powder-c. But on the front wheel, a perfect time to do that is when changing the second or third SET of tires, so the bike has 30k to 45k miles on it, and then is a acceptable time to go ahead and replace the front wheel bearings and seals.

Personally, I do not like the finish on these F6B wheels either, despite being Black. I will probably have my wheels powder-c this coming Winter, when the bike has 45k to 60k on it.

As for the book, I will put your name on one of the first copies.

BTW, smart choice of the CT you decided on. If you are going to use a CT, that is a good one.

[bob109]

The MAX is finally mounted and balanced. Watched the mechanic mount the tire and it required only 38 psi to seat the bead! Much lower than the CT on my Yamaha RSTD which required 90/95 psi and bake in the sun for a few hours before finally popping/seating:shock:

The tire, inflated, is 7.5 inches wide sidewall to sidewall and has a height of 24-9/16". It required only 1/2 oz. weight to static balance which is extremely low compared to some MT's and CT's'

The tire has very aggressive sipes across the width of the tread and should be great in any rainy conditions. That remains to be seen:icon_lol:

Some additional pics of the tire! Excuse the levels. They were use to check tire width:icon_wink:

296297298299

[bob109]

Bob, I did the same kind of laser thermo testing on the Dunlop tires during the entire eyar of '03, when they used me as a tester. it really helps to use that laser thermometer. You really sound like you do know what you are doing with tire scrubbing and testing, and that is good for US, as we get to see your results. If truth be told, I would like to go to a CT, but the only real concern I have is sidewall stability and durability in the long run. If I can get past that hurdle, and be convinced that a CT will be stable at high speeds, and that the sidewall stress will not cause it to blow out on me at speed, then I may be a convert.




Doc:

I chose the G-MAX based on the aggressive directional thread design, The deep sipes are impressive. Hope they are as functional as they look. This tire has a soft 1 ply sidewall which may not produce the desired results I'm looking for. Time will tell. There's a new twist for CT on cycles and that began with the availability Run Flats which have extremely hard side walls and have riding characteristics very close to a MT. One of the recent favorites amongst Goldwing Dark Siders it the Michelin Primacy Alpine PA3 Run Flat. That was actually my first choice until I actually seen the MAX up close at a local tire store.

I originally intended to swap out the present Stone with the CT but may just wear it out and see what kind of mileage it delivers. Once it's history I may mount the Alpine on the OEM rim. I could alternate between both CT and capture data on both:icon_wink:

Bob

[bob109]

Had a busy but fun day getting the G-MAX finished and ready to install. Last effort was applying black PlastiDip to the wheel. After masking the valve stem and giving the wheel one last wipe down with brake cleaner I applied several coats of the PD. I have to say I'm impressed with the results. The coating appearance matches the OEM rims perfectly.

Some additional pics of the wheel and a few close ups of the aggressive tread sipes.:icon_biggrin:

302303304305306

[Texas TC]

The PD looks great. Now put that puppy in the bike and ride it!

[bob109]

What a day to change a tire! It's 90 degrees with high humidity. That said it's not enough to stop progerss:icon_biggrin:

Laying the F6B over on its crash bars for the first time is a bit intimidating! After watching several You-Tube videos on the procedure it was not that bad of a ordeal. I'll have to tell my Hernias that as they are smarting:icon_frown:

Once the bike was on its side the OEM wheel/tire removal was easy. Getting the new G-MAX back in took some finagling but a little added vulgarity on my part helped it drop in place:icon_rolleyes:

This has to be the easiest tire/wheel change of any bike I've previously owned. No cycle jack involved:clap2:

The pic!

316317318319

[bob109]

Had the bike out for the first ride to "scrub" the G-MAX and break it in. With the pressure set at 34 psi. I managed to put 102 miles on it without incident. First impression....WOW! The tire is amazingly smooth. My static balance job was on the button. No vibrations or tire thumping. Once having a few miles on the tire I hit some interstate to further check on the balance. With several throttle roll-on from 60 to 90 mph the ride was rock solid. On the secondary back roads the tire held like glue in the corners. The " corner carving capabilities" of the bike are unaffected by the CT.

Started a "Tire Log" for recording/capturing all aspects of the tire and its performance. More info later:icon_wink:

[Mustangjake]

Now I want 1.

[Phantom]

466467468469




:Saweeet smilie:

[bob109]

On the bike early today and followed a route I had the "6", with cycle tire on, on three previous occasions. So familiar is the 100+ mile route I know every pot hole, tar strip and other road imperfections and could drive it blindfolded!

The first 50 miles of two lane roads are a collection of sweepers, twisties and a few switchback corners with posted 15MPH warnings. The ride carried me along the Lackawaxen and Delaware Rivers from Pa. into N.Y. State and back into Pa. It is truly a beautiful and scenic ride. This was my opportunity to give the new G-MAX a workout and make a comparison to my previous exact rides on the stock Bridgestone. The G-MAX performed well above my expectations. Not a single hick-up in the corners and it gripped like sand paper through and coming out of ever corner. I ran the approximate same speed as I did with the MT and IMHO I'll take the G-MAX CT over the Bridge any time. Crossing over the Delaware back into Pa. there is a 1 1/2 block long steel bridge which produced tire squirm equal to the Stone and I kept my hands tight on the bars. The remainder of the ride was primarily on the super slab ( !-84 ) and ended on several secondary roads. The overall handling on the slab was like any other bike/tire encountering parallel grooves/imperfection in the road surface with the expected brief pulling/wobble and a occasional bang of the front shocks when one just cant miss the (I got ya hole).

This will be one of the last post on the subject for a while. I'll be capturing and sharing data on the tire at 1K mile intervals and may change that if I "crash & burn":icon_wink:

Total miles today 117........162 miles yesterday and I'm still here to tell about it:clap2:

[bob109]

With the recent break in weather I managed to finally get the first 1k miles on the G-MAX. Like every other CT, I've used, it takes several tries at getting the tire pressure to the "sweet spot". In the case of the MAX that is 38-40 psi. Took several hundred miles of tuning the pressure from a low of 30 psi to the high of 42 psi. After a 300 mile run this past Sunday 39 psi is "golden" for my bike/rider combination. Other than visual checks of the thread I've not captures any tire temp data other than my hand on the tire. Not very scientific but that will change as the ambient temps increase and I shoot the tire with my trusty Laser Thermometer:icon_wink:
My first impressions of this tire! So well is the handling, I'm about to order another one. The tire is as near neutral as a MT and has exceptional corner handling characteristics. It is smooth riding and the only flaw, if there is one, is the "squirm" encountered on "steel grate" bridge surfaces. Actually it is no worse than a MT.

On the 300 mile Sunday ride I was accompanied by a Harley ( two up), a M109R (solo with 240 rear MT) and GL1800 Wing (two up with OEM Stone). I had the lead position for the entire ride. The folks knew I was on a car tire and there was, needless to say, some sincere skepticism by those folks until the ride was over and they were shaking their heads as to how well my 6 handled. In all truthfulness, I could have pulled way in any of the corners we encountered but keep a nice civil pace out of concern for the poor folks on MT's:icon_biggrin: My Brother-In Law who rode the Wing stated he's on his second set of tires in less than 10k miles. Being one of the biggest critics of Dark Side Riding, he's about to take the leap to a CT:clap2:

More info later!

Ride Safe

Bob

[Mustangjake]

Thanks Bob glad it's working so well for u :icon_cool:
My buddy owns a tire shop he's getting me the same tire!

[bob109]

Thanks Bob glad it's working so well for u :icon_cool:
My buddy owns a tire shop he's getting me the same tire!

Jake:

You made a good choice for your CT:icon_wink: Keep us all informed with your experience.

P.S. I see you're from Hudson FL. I spend my winters in Citra Fl. Being there for six months I average about 9K on my bike. It's my only transportation after parking my motor home. Great motorcycle riding in horse country:icon_lol:

[Mustangjake]

Yes I do live in hudson fl 28 years now it grown up so much I want to move but the wife don't.

[Wild Bill]

Well dam!!!! Yall got me thinking. $250+ every 3-4 months for a stone versus a car tire?? Hmm. I mite just be joing you all.

[bob109]

Well dam!!!! Yall got me thinking. $250+ every 3-4 months for a stone versus a car tire?? Hmm. I mite just be joing you all.

Visit the Goldwing Darkside Riders Forum and you'll find a treasure trove of info from Wing Riders who are actually running a variety of CT's. There are several brands of Run Flats which are delivering outstanding mileage and handling. Michelin is the most oft mentioned. Do your homework before you make a decision which should take into account your riding style.

My current G-MAX was shipped free to my front door for $90.00. I'm still tinkering with the pressure and enjoying every mile as I do so. I have the OEM Stone on the stock rim and look at that tire with just 1190 miles on it and the center portion is already flat:shock: I believe that tire would be good for a mere 6/7k miles before it would be shot:icon_frown: Cycle tires, even if reasonably priced are not worth the constant hassle of frequent tire changes. Those who ride Wings aggressively might get 6k from a cycle tire:icon_rolleyes:

[Wild Bill]

Visit the Goldwing Darkside Riders Forum and you'll find a treasure trove of info from Wing Riders who are actually running a variety of CT's. There are several brands of Run Flats which are delivering outstanding mileage and handling. Michelin is the most oft mentioned. Do your homework before you make a decision which should take into account your riding style.

My current G-MAX was shipped free to my front door for $90.00. I'm still tinkering with the pressure and enjoying every mile as I do so. I have the OEM Stone on the stock rim and look at that tire with just 1190 miles on it and the center portion is already flat:shock: I believe that tire would be good for a mere 6/7k miles before it would be shot:icon_frown: Cycle tires, even if reasonably priced are not worth the constant hassle of frequent tire changes. Those who ride Wings aggressively might get 6k from a cycle tire:icon_rolleyes:

thanks for the heads up on tech support link. 6K is all I got out of the stones on my Vulcan and they were slick. This bike I belive the milage will add up a lot quicker. Less time and money spent at the dealer means more time on the road.... Thanks Bill

[bob109]

thanks for the heads up on tech support link. 6K is all I got out of the stones on my Vulcan and they were slick. This bike I belive the milage will add up a lot quicker. Less time and money spent at the dealer means more time on the road.... Thanks Bill

Bill:

Here's some good reading! Do a search!

Darkside Riders-GL1800 Riders

[MichaelG]

I have the OEM Stone on the stock rim and look at that tire with just 1190 miles on it and the center portion is already flat:shock: I believe that tire would be good for a mere 6/7k miles before it would be shot:icon_frown: Cycle tires, even if reasonably priced are not worth the constant hassle of frequent tire changes. Those who ride Wings aggressively might get 6k from a cycle tire:icon_rolleyes:

Bob, I am surprised that your Bridgestone front tire is already "flat" in the center portion, with only 1190 miles on it...at that time. There are several of us on here that have close to...or more than...10,000 miles on our OEM Bridgestones, and the front tire is wearing perfectly well. I fully expect to get well over 14k, and maybe as high as 16k out of my current Bridgestone tires. I have to wonder is tire pressure has anything to do with the way your front tire is wearing. I run 40/40 for my tires, and they look very good at almost 10,000 miles.

My next set will be the NEW Dunlop E-3 Radials with Multi-tread compound. My experience with 3 previous Wings was that I can get 17k to 20k miles out of a set of Dunlops, and with the new change to the E-3 radials, I am hoping to get more.

Admittedly, I have been eyeing a CT for the rear...a Michelin Primacy Alpin PA3, run flat. That "may" be the new tire that goes on as the 3rd set gets installed, next spring.

[bob109]

Bob, I am surprised that your Bridgestone front tire is already "flat" in the center portion, with only 1190 miles on it...at that time. There are several of us on here that have close to...or more than...10,000 miles on our OEM Bridgestones, and the front tire is wearing perfectly well. I fully expect to get well over 14k, and maybe as high as 16k out of my current Bridgestone tires. I have to wonder is tire pressure has anything to do with the way your front tire is wearing. I run 40/40 for my tires, and they look very good at almost 10,000 miles.

Miles:

I was referring to the Stock Rear Tire I removed at 1190 miles. Not the front tire! I have the front at 40 psi and I expect to to get approximately 12/14K miles service from it. The rear Stone had flattened in the very center of the tire. I suspect that the numerous tar/chip road surfaces, which abound in my neck of the woods, may have contributed to the accelerated wear I observed.

Regarding the Alpine CT Run Flat! It is fast becoming the choice of numerous Wing Riders. All of the info I've read to date indicates it is a high mileage tire with performance/handling that mirrors a MT. I know you'll do your "home work" before you make your final choice. Who knows! You may be the first Million Mile Dark Side Rider:icon_biggrin:

Bob

[bob109]

Thought it would be informative, for those interested, to have a visual side-by-side comparison of the G-MAX with 0 miles and 1500 miles wear. Contrary to what some folks think, Dark Side Riders are never on the sidewall when cornering. The magic of "radial sidewall flex" keeps the thread firmly planted to the road surface.

The photos (left to right) provide some clear evidence of the original round mold marks which were visible on the entire tread face and remain on the thread edge after 1500 miles of riding.

543544545546547

[MichaelG]

Contrary to what some folks think, Dark Side Riders are never on the sidewall when cornering. The magic of "radial sidewall flex" keeps the thread firmly planted to the road surface.



Bob, first...I am still very much interested in learning as much as I can about CT's on bikes. When it comes to CT's on bikes...I am not a know-it-all, like I am with everything else related to bikes.:icon_wink:

However, just for clarification, I have never thought that Dark Side Riders are on the sidewalls of their tires when cornering. I fully understand the dynamics of tires, and their characteristics on the road. My concern...and my ONLY concern...about CT's is the flexion of the sidewalls during hard cornering, and how that stress on the sidewall affects the lifespan of the sidewalls structural stability.

For further clarification...we all know how a MT is designed and built to have very stiff sidewalls, and to roll the tire from one side to the other side in a corner, with little to no sidewalls flex, so that the MT tread stays in contact with the road surface, as much as possible. But with a CT, and the more flexible sidewalls, which are designed that way by the tire manufacturers to asssist in absorbing road surface imperfections, and to keep the parallel surface of the 4 tires of the car on the road surface as much as possible, the CT sidewalls are not designed to handle the stress loads that a MT tire is designed for.

Yes, I have seen the videos. They do not mean much to me. My concern is that a CT that has been stressed on the sidewalls over a period of 10,000 to 20,000 miles, and then is ridden hard through a long sweeper in Montana at 85 mph, is that sidewall going to blow out on me at those speeds ?

I am trying to find a CT that has the stiffest sidewalls, with a 3 ply or more construction in the sidewalls. Another reason to go with a 55 profile rating, versus a 60 profile rating.

Yes, I have heard of riders that ride their bikes with CT's very hard...BUT...are they riding those same bikes with those same CT's hard for all of the 20k+ miles ? Or are they takling a short video of a short mileage ride, just to show what the CT can do on a bike? Are there any riders with CT's on their bikes that have successfully ridden well over 20k+ miles...and ridden the bike hard and fast that entire time ?

I do not want to install a tire on my bike, if the result is that I have to be concerned about cornering speeds, and the possibility of a high speed blow-out of the sidewall, due to stressing the sidewall more than it was designed to be stressed.

I would really like to find a rider that I know...and know that this rider does in fact ...# 1...know HOW to ride...and # 2...has ridden the bike hard and fast for over 20k+ miles, so that I can have a better belief that a CT will in fact be safe on MY bike.

I can easily pull 20k+ miles out of a MT tire...if I make the concious decision to ride nice. But riding nice takes all the fun out of it for me. Riding the way I do, I can still pull 17k+ miles out of a set of 'lops, and not have a worry in the world about my tires.

So...I still have an open mind...but I need further evidence that a CT will really work on a bike of mine.

[bob109]

Miles:

Calm yourself:icon_lol: The post was not directed at you:icon_wink: It was to give folks a clear visual on CT tread wear:icon_biggrin:

Here's a short video worth viewing!
http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7nIu1clRAkUAjFFXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE0OWQzMmF 2BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMwRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1ZJUDA0OV83N A--/SIG=1204qt876/EXP=1372210606/**http%3a//www.youtube.com/watch%3fv=nmo_dkNZIHM

[bob109]

I would really like to find a rider that I know...and know that this rider does in fact ...# 1...know HOW to ride...and # 2...has ridden the bike hard and fast for over 20k+ miles, so that I can have a better belief that a CT will in fact be safe on MY bike.[/QUOTE]

Miles:

I would strongly suggest you personally contact Daniel Meyer ( Life is a Road ). A Engineer, who has accumulated more CT motorcycle riding miles than any other person I'm aware of! I do believe you and him have a shared interest in "high frequency" riding. His miles, of course on CT's. Check him out! He's published several books on the subject:icon_wink:

If anyone can enlighten you, I'll bet it would be it would be him!
http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7m8U7slRkg0AAkVXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE0OWQzMmF 2BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMwRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1ZJUDA0OV83N A--/SIG=12e8tveg4/EXP=1372216980/**http%3a//lifeisaroad.com/stories/2004/10/27/theDarkSide.html

[MichaelG]

Miles:

Calm yourself:icon_lol: The post was not directed at you:icon_wink: It was to give folks a clear visual on CT tread wear:icon_biggrin:

Here's a short video worth viewing!



Oh, I am calm. And I did not "think" that post was "directed" at me, I was just commenting on it, in a very calm voice (fingers)

BTW, that short video was a waste of 1 minute and 31 seconds of my time. That shows very little, and provides zero information about speed, sidewall thrust, etc.

I will contact Daniel and see if he can shed any light on this subject.

[Mustangjake]

http://lifeisaroad.com/

[MichaelG]

I would strongly suggest you personally contact Daniel Meyer ( Life is a Road ). A Engineer, who has accumulated more CT motorcycle riding miles than any other person I'm aware of! I do believe you and him have a shared interest in "high frequency" riding. His miles, of course on CT's. Check him out! He's published several books on the subject:icon_wink:

If anyone can enlighten you, I'll bet it would be it would be him!



Bob, I went to the link about Daniel Meyer, and I have to say, I was very much unimpressed with his riding history and experience. He most certainly is NOT my counterpart, as you have stated he would be. This gentle giant from Texas, as of 3 years ago, has about 1/3 the total mileage I do, and while be has shown to be a qualified "writer", that does not equate to being a qualified rider.

I think I will look elsewhere. I know of a couple riders that do ride very seriously, that do run CT's, and I will talk to them.

[Phantom]

Miles, I wish I was able to ride as many miles as you do every year.

I play the Lottery every week hoping to land my Riding Sponsorship :icon_lol:

[Mustangjake]

Miles I know of no one with as many as you have !
I would fall asleep riding as many miles as you do .
I have no idea how you do it brother it's just awesome.
After a few hours I want to stop and get some coolaide !
I have 2 years & 6 months till I retire my wife thinks I am
Going to leave & never come back but she ain't getting off that easy.
She wants a motor home ! not me I just want to ride get the hell out of Fl.

[Hornblower]

Hey Miles--

I'm certainly not going to try to argue your point about possible weakening of the CT sidewalls over time but do you really think we load these tires enough to cause that kind of problem? I don't really know the answer but after all, we're talking about car tires built to handle who knows what kind of abuse including sliding sideways in a 4000 lb. vehicle which has to put an extreme amount of stress on the tire and we're using them on bikes and simply leaning over. You raise one of the most interesting points I've heard on this subject but my gut feeling (and that sure isn't scientific) is that a good quality, performance CT can handle anything we can throw at it. I ran a Michelin Pilot Sport CT on my Rocket III and was real happy with it but didn't put enough miles on it to observe any problems. So again, I don't know the facts about long term safety but it is something to consider.

[bob109]

Bob, I went to the link about Daniel Meyer, and I have to say, I was very much unimpressed with his riding history and experience. He most certainly is NOT my counterpart, as you have stated he would be. This gentle giant from Texas, as of 3 years ago, has about 1/3 the total mileage I do, and while be has shown to be a qualified "writer", that does not equate to being a qualified rider.

I think I will look elsewhere. I know of a couple riders that do ride very seriously, that do run CT's, and I will talk to them.

Miles:

With all due respect your ego is starting to surpass all common sense:icon_lol: When I offer up a Forum which has 680+ riders who have captured and consolidated CT data, you claim it's merely their opinions:shock: Give you info on a rider who is a Engineer, Author and Pilot and has 100,000 miles of CT riding on a Valk and you infer that he's not a qualified rider:shock: Give you any number of videos on the subject of CT on cycles or CT UTQG Testing and it's dismissed as malarkey:shock: In ending I do hope that you share whoever those "very serious riders" are! I'd be personally interested in their names and the forums they contribute to. I know! I know! If you tell me their names you'll have to shoot me! I'm partial to .357 Hollow Points:icon_wink:

Cordially

"Long In The Tooth Bob"

[MichaelG]

Miles I know of no one with as many as you have !
I would fall asleep riding as many miles as you do .
I have no idea how you do it brother it's just awesome.
After a few hours I want to stop and get some coolaide !
I have 2 years & 6 months till I retire my wife thinks I am
Going to leave & never come back but she ain't getting off that easy.
She wants a motor home ! not me I just want to ride get the hell out of Fl.

MustangJake, long distance riding is not for everyone. There are times that I really wish I could simply ride 100 miles for the day, and be satisfied. At times...it is as much a curse, as it is a blessing. But it is also very lonely. After 29 years in the IBA...quite frankl;y I am tired of the long distance miles.

[MichaelG]

Hey Miles--

I'm certainly not going to try to argue your point about possible weakening of the CT sidewalls over time but do you really think we load these tires enough to cause that kind of problem? I don't really know the answer but after all, we're talking about car tires built to handle who knows what kind of abuse including sliding sideways in a 4000 lb. vehicle which has to put an extreme amount of stress on the tire and we're using them on bikes and simply leaning over. You raise one of the most interesting points I've heard on this subject but my gut feeling (and that sure isn't scientific) is that a good quality, performance CT can handle anything we can throw at it. I ran a Michelin Pilot Sport CT on my Rocket III and was real happy with it but didn't put enough miles on it to observe any problems. So again, I don't know the facts about long term safety but it is something to consider.

Hornblower, you make some good points. It is not the load on the sidewalls trhat concerns me, it is the stress caused by flexing the sidewalls. And...I am not at all certain about my concerns. They are just...concerns...that I am looking for the right answers to eliminate my concerns. Everyday I get a little more willing to try a CT, and a little less skeptical, but before I put my life on the line, I would like to have more knowledge on the subject.

[MichaelG]

Miles:

With all due respect your ego is starting to surpass all common sense:"Long In The Tooth Bob"

Then it is time that I leave this thread, and seek my info on this subject matter elsewhere.

[Teach]

I've run darkside CT in the past, on my Victory Vision. I see a couple of concerns with doing so on the F6B. First off it has a single side swing-arm which means there are TWO major factors that do NOT appear to have been considered; Wheel and Tire weight which do place load on the bearings, which in turn will lead to Final Drive failure. Now please do not take this as throwing stones but you can't just order a tire online because you like the pattern, and cast wheels are heavier, which leads me to the impression that WEIGHT was not considered.
Second, you may not ride on the sidewall, BUT when you lean the bike does in fact roll up over what I refer to as the hump. That's the last inch or two of the tire tread that wraps to the sidewall. Obviously it is more noticeable on a new tire than on one that's been ridden 10k. Nobody mentioned tire pressure that I saw?? What pressure are you running??
And finally for those considering this option.... Besides the aforementioned items to consider, consider riding habits. If you ride in all weather you are going to hydroplane a CT. Contact patch is MUCH wider than a bike tire and as such will ride ON the water rather than pushing it out thru grooves. Simple physics, weight versus contact area.
So while there are some very good reasons one might want to go with a CT, mainly longer mileage, there are other things to consider than just mileage.

Bob, I'd weight both my stock wheel and rim, and the CT w/rim to see how close you are. My guess is your setup is WAY heavier than Honda's. If so I'd consider revising to get as close or lower than the stock weight. Getting a flat is scary enough, tossing the FD bearing would be terrible (and expensive). Enjoy the ride!

[bob109]

I've run darkside CT in the past, on my Victory Vision. I see a couple of concerns with doing so on the F6B. First off it has a single side swing-arm which means there are TWO major factors that do NOT appear to have been considered; Wheel and Tire weight which do place load on the bearings, which in turn will lead to Final Drive failure. Now please do not take this as throwing stones but you can't just order a tire online because you like the pattern, and cast wheels are heavier, which leads me to the impression that WEIGHT was not considered.
Second, you may not ride on the sidewall, BUT when you lean the bike does in fact roll up over what I refer to as the hump. That's the last inch or two of the tire tread that wraps to the sidewall. Obviously it is more noticeable on a new tire than on one that's been ridden 10k. Nobody mentioned tire pressure that I saw?? What pressure are you running??
And finally for those considering this option.... Besides the aforementioned items to consider, consider riding habits. If you ride in all weather you are going to hydroplane a CT. Contact patch is MUCH wider than a bike tire and as such will ride ON the water rather than pushing it out thru grooves. Simple physics, weight versus contact area.
So while there are some very good reasons one might want to go with a CT, mainly longer mileage, there are other things to consider than just mileage.

Bob, I'd weight both my stock wheel and rim, and the CT w/rim to see how close you are. My guess is your setup is WAY heavier than Honda's. If so I'd consider revising to get as close or lower than the stock weight. Getting a flat is scary enough, tossing the FD bearing would be terrible (and expensive). Enjoy the ride!

Those issues/concerns you raise have been addressed by the numerous GL 1800 Goldwing Riders whose bikes share the identical frame, tires, wheel bearings and suspension components as our F6B's and weigh 62 lbs more. To my knowledge I can't recall anyone mentioning the failure of "swing arm bearings" or "final drives". I have however seen numerous entire swing arm assemblies with OEM wheel/tire for sale on e-bay which were removed for trike installation.

Regarding the stock OEM Stone/Wheel wight that would be 34 lbs. I didn't weigh my G-MAX/OEM Wheel prior to installation so I'm relying on, "Tire Rack", info that the G-MAX weighs 18 lbs. If the OEM wheel is 16 lbs. or a tad heavier I doubt there is any concern for swing arm or final drive bearings.

I choose to run a CT not solely based on mileage. Although it's a consideration, I'm more concerned with the overall better handling, braking, smooth ride and wet traction that the CT provides. I've had the opportunity to ride on some 150 to 250 wide MT's which were better suited for surfing when it came to wet roads:shock:

When I select a CT for my bike it's after considerable research from various Dark Side Rider and Tire Manufacturer sites. I don't "shoot from the hip" when my personal safety is on the line.

Here's some pics which compare the tire contact surfaces/sipes of the OEM Stone and the G-MAX. Not splitting hairs, the Stone has 6 each major sipes for 12" while the MAX has 12 for the same 12". Side sipes for the Stone are 7 while the MAX has 11. That fact seems to contradict your statement that a CT will hydro-plane because of a wider contact patch. There are substantially more sipes on the CT to channel water which reduces the risk to hydro-plane.

573574575576

[Mustangjake]

Bob how many miles do u have on it now ?
I am get the General Altimax HP 195/55-16 V-rated
Grand Touring All-Season
$108.00 to my door
pic from Daniel Meyer !

[bob109]

Bob how many miles do u have on it now ?
I am get the General Altimax HP 195/55-16 V-rated
Grand Touring All-Season
$108.00 to my door
pic from Daniel Meyer !

Jake:

I'm just shy of 1900 miles. Sitting here typing this and drying out! Just returned from a ride and got caught in a good downpour. The G-MAX handled perfectly, just as I expected. After hosing down the bike I'm leaving it sit in the rain. No water spots that way:icon_wink:

585586587

Your selection of the General Altimax HP is a good choice. Directional with lots of good sipes and heavy lugs along the edges. That tire is extremely popular with Yamaha Stratoliner Owners and is also used by numerous Goldwing GL1800 Owners. If you visit either the "Riding Dark Side Forum" or the "Goldwing Darkside Riders Forum" you'll find info on the mounting pressure and the most common "Sweet Spot Tire Pressure". You may have to tweek your tire pressure to your riding style and rider/cycle weight combination. Usually that pressure is within 1 to 2 pounds of what everyone else is using:biggthumpup:

I'll do a quick check of the databases and see what info I can find.

Bob

[bobbyf6b]

I love this idea. Since this is my first GW I have never heard of using a car tire on a bike before, except for the old Boss Hoss I rode back in the 90's. That was a large tire. It was still maneuverable although a little slow in the turns. No worse than a 250-300mm bike tire. How do you decide the car tire size and will anyone install them? I guess I'll check out the dark side forums too.

[Teach]

bob, you are going to run what you want so there is little to debate. However you cannot get around science, even though the folks on the DS forums seem to think so. Physics states the more contact, the greater the likelihood of hydroplaning, it is SCIENCE, not opinion.
I'll go one step further in pointing out that ALL of the tire manufacturers who produce tires that are routinely used by DS riders, have gone on record in stating it is NOT SAFE.
You might want to have a look at the FD parts breakdown to see how the lateral force applied by running a CT is going to affect your FD, along with the additional 4lbs minimum your setup has over stock. You ARE loading the bearings in a way they were not designed to be loaded.
Will you get away with running a DS setup? Sure, maybe, probably, not..... I sure wouldn't want to be that one fella who's FD goes, that is for sure.

I have NO desire to fight with you about this topic, BUT I also don't want to see some newb reading this, think its a great idea, and then getting him/herself killed. You went shopping on the DS forums for reinforcement for what you wanted to do, and you found it. I can point out a dozen sites that claim the Holocaust never happened, back it up with all kinds of info, BUT we both know the reality.

[bob109]

bob, you are going to run what you want so there is little to debate. However you cannot get around science, even though the folks on the DS forums seem to think so. Physics states the more contact, the greater the likelihood of hydroplaning, it is SCIENCE, not opinion.
I'll go one step further in pointing out that ALL of the tire manufacturers who produce tires that are routinely used by DS riders, have gone on record in stating it is NOT SAFE.
You might want to have a look at the FD parts breakdown to see how the lateral force applied by running a CT is going to affect your FD, along with the additional 4lbs minimum your setup has over stock. You ARE loading the bearings in a way they were not designed to be loaded.
Will you get away with running a DS setup? Sure, maybe, probably, not..... I sure wouldn't want to be that one fella who's FD goes, that is for sure.

I have NO desire to fight with you about this topic, BUT I also don't want to see some newb reading this, think its a great idea, and then getting him/herself killed. You went shopping on the DS forums for reinforcement for what you wanted to do, and you found it. I can point out a dozen sites that claim the Holocaust never happened, back it up with all kinds of info, BUT we both know the reality.

Thanks for sharing that with me!

I "personally" do not endorse the use of a CT's on anyone's motorcycle other than my own, however I like to exercise my "freedom of choice" when it comes to my motorcycle, tires, oil, filter, paint color, options, grades of gas, tire pressure etc. etc. etc.

I promise, you will be the first one I notify should I have a FD failure or other catastrophic event which resulted from my use of a CT. As this will be the my third "heavy cruiser" to wear a CT, I'm confident that my selection is "right for me".

With you sincere concerns on this matter, I do hope that you take them to the Goldwing Darksiders Forum where hundreds of riders are routinely "throwing caution to the wind" and running CT's without failures of any sort, be it a tire or mechanical in nature.

In closing I'd like to express my utmost confidence in "Mother Honda" to "overbuild" the F6B like every other machine they manufacture. I'm especially confident that the FD which is shared with the regular Wing are "bullet proof".

In the interest of "Personal Safety" I admit that the owners manual clearly states not to use a "car tire" on the F6B. That info is amongst a host of other warnings to include not towing a trailer, overloading, speeding etc.:shock:

Cordially

Bob

P.S. In regards to your statement of "loading the bearings" because of the of the additional 4lb. tire weight! Suggest you read and understand "unsprung/sprung weight".
http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7iGDg9dRpUcA_OlXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTByMTNuNTZ zBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMgRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkAw--/SIG=120ib23te/EXP=1373107203/**http%3a//victorylibrary.com/mopar/sprung-c.htm

[FlyinF]

Just for gee-whiz I searched the net for motorcycle failures with car tires........................could not find a one, but I sure found lots of failures with motorcycle tires, I mean serious failures with fatal injuries, totaled bikes and multiple law suits. Kinda scary reading about all those failures, many low mileage tires, many with experienced riders who check tire pressure all the time and even the morning of the day of the failure. I'm not for or against any kind of tire, I believe we are all free to do what we want with our bikes, it's your call.

[bobbyf6b]

I called a local bike tire shop today. All they do is install bike tires. You bring it in, on the bike or not, and they install it. I asked if they would install a car tire on a bike rim. "No we will not, it's not safe!" Well, alrighty then. Thanks for your OPINION. I know for a fact that it's only "unsafe" because if someone did get hurt, whether the fault of the tire or not, somebody is gonna get sued. I guess I'll have to invest in a tire mounting machine if I really want to do it.

If hydroplaning was even an issue, then why would Harley, or anyone else, put wide car tires on a TRIKE? :think:

[bob109]

You might want to have a look at the FD parts breakdown to see how the lateral force applied by running a CT is going to affect your FD, along with the additional 4lbs minimum your setup has over stock. You ARE loading the bearings in a way they were not designed to be loaded.
[/QUOTE]

I simply had to return to this post and address your comment regarding "Lateral Force" and the "loading of bearings" because of the additional "4lbs minimum over the stock wheel/tire.

After some research I was able to glean some great info on actual motorcycle tire weights from E-Tires Unlimited. I have to laugh because according to your assumption my FD bearings are in jeopardy of failure due to the increased weight of the 18lb G-MAX. Your assumption also suggest that any tire which weighs more than 15.5lbs (actual weight of the stock Bridgestone G704) is "overloading the bearings.

As a refresher the stock F6B tire/wheel weight is 34lbs. The Bridgestone 180/60-R16 G704 weighs 15.5lbs. Quick math, 34lbs minus 15.5lbs gives a wheel weight of 18.5 lbs.

Now the best part:icon_wink: Your suggestion, that any wheel/tire combination exceeding 34 pounds total weight should not be used, has eliminated five of the six tire manufactures who have "recommended tires" for the Goldwing/F6B:shock:

Bridgestone G704 180/60 R-16.......15.5lbs

Metzeler ME880 180/60 R-16..........18lbs (same weight as G-MAX CT)

Pirelli Night Dragon 180/65-16........20lbs
180/70-16.......22lbs

Shinko SE890 180/60-R16..............20lbs

Michelin Commander II 180/65-16...21lbs

Dunlop Elite 3 180/60-HR16............22lbs

Wow! Guess Wing/F6B riders really have only one choice in a cycle tire, that being the 15.5lb Bridgestone G704:icon_rolleyes:

In ending, I'll leave "Lateral Force" to "front steering tires":icon_biggrin:

[Gumby]

bob, you are going to run what you want so there is little to debate.

I have NO desire to fight with you about this topic.

Then why would you even open this thread let alone post a giant tirade?


That was a rhetorical question. Please don't write another ten paragraph post of nonsense.

[av8rdave]

Put me on second :icon_biggrin:

Btw for some more interesting reading, Neil Peart the drummer for "Rush" also has a series of interesting books about his motorcycle adventures. He rides his BMW in between shows as he travels around the world.

Any connection to your screen name?

I'm a huge Peart/Rush fan. Have seen their shows several times -always great!

[Teach]

Bob, and there in lies the problem. You read what you wanted to read and NOT what I posted. The weight or additional weight in and of itself is NOT a huge issue. What you didn't get was lateral force applied to the FD's bearings. So maybe before revisiting you should look into it some more.
As I stated I have no interest in fighting over this with you. I am pretty sure some fella's with a whole lot more engineering experience than I have a better knowledge of what should not be done with the parts they designed. I'll leave it there.
May your journeys all be safe......

Gumby, why would I not open this thread? I find it of some interest to see what folks are doing with their bikes. Why so defensive over opposing views?
Obviously I am not going to change Bob's mind, nor was that my intention, but I did point out a few flaws in the DS argument. Won't make any difference to those who want to run DS, might for someone on the fence.

As for the "can't find any" DS failures? Didn't look too hard because there is one posted to youtube, and it was a wing.

Ride safe fella's.

[bob109]

Bob, and there in lies the problem. You read what you wanted to read and NOT what I posted. The weight or additional weight in and of itself is NOT a huge issue. What you didn't get was lateral force applied to the FD's bearings. So maybe before revisiting you should look into it some more.
As I stated I have no interest in fighting over this with you. I am pretty sure some fella's with a whole lot more engineering experience than I have a better knowledge of what should not be done with the parts they designed. I'll leave it there.
May your journeys all be safe......

Gumby, why would I not open this thread? I find it of some interest to see what folks are doing with their bikes. Why so defensive over opposing views?
Obviously I am not going to change Bob's mind, nor was that my intention, but I did point out a few flaws in the DS argument. Won't make any difference to those who want to run DS, might for someone on the fence.

As for the "can't find any" DS failures? Didn't look too hard because there is one posted to youtube, and it was a wing.

Ride safe fella's.

Once again "Thanks" for sharing that with me:icon_biggrin:

As (your quote) "I didn't get what was"lateral force applied to the FD bearings", I'm giving you the podium so you can share your knowledge on this subject. Please explain it in layman terms so "I get it" along with all the other folks who are following this thread. I know you will clearly articulate the difference between the MT/CT lateral forces so there's no mistake on anyones part on this subject, which you raised as a issue. Thanking you, "Teach", from all of your inquisitive students. Were listening!

You Ride Safe Also:icon_wink:

[Mustangjake]

I couldn't find it on YouTube can u post a link ?
I still putting it on my bike ! Just would like to see the video.
I Have been riding the same roads Keeping track of my speeds
So I can do a fair comparison When I change the tire.

[Dark Knight]

Found this intense article on the web about CT vs MT.

http://www.goldwingfacts.com/forums/2-goldwing-technical-forum/400426-design-differences-between-car-motorcycle-rim-tire.html

:stirthepot: :077:

[chipmaker]

No matter how wrong I think a car tire on a motorcycle is engineering wise, there are just too many successful darksiders, Honda, HD, and otherwise for me to say it's wrong. So I stand on the sideline for these discussions. :beer3:

[bob109]

Found this intense article on the web about CT vs MT.

http://www.goldwingfacts.com/forums/2-goldwing-technical-forum/400426-design-differences-between-car-motorcycle-rim-tire.html

:stirthepot: :077:

That is a remarkable article and worth reading by all cycle riders!

Thanks for bringing it to this post.

Bob

[bobbyf6b]

I saw a CT on a Victory Cross Country Tour today. I talked to the guy for a while cuz I'm really interested in the topic. He's been doing it for years. Loves it. Puts a ton of miles on bikes. He told me of a place locally that will install them so I'll be looking into it in the future. I only have 1200 miles on the new Stone right now. :icon_biggrin:

682

[bob109]

If you're not already confused:shock:
http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7m_Ia9pRbS4AxTxXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTByMTNuNTZ zBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMgRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkAw--/SIG=11u7hl6ou/EXP=1373297736/**http%3a//www.4crawler.com/Diesel/Tires.shtml

The stock wheel on a F6B has a designation of "J 16M/CXMT5.00 DOT 13W" which is clearly on the back of the rim. The J designation is used for identifying most automotive rims. Something to remember when comparing MT/CT rims:icon_wink:

[Mustangjake]

I would pull my hair out if I had any:icon_doh:

[ghostrider]

Any connection to your screen name?

I'm a huge Peart/Rush fan. Have seen their shows several times -always great!

Yes, as a matter of fact it is. :clap2: I'm a big fan too, really enjoyed reading his books and seeing RUSH in concert. I originally saw them at the swing auditorium in San Bernadino when they played backup to another band during their 2112 album concert. Just blew away the audience.

[ghostrider]

http://neilpeart.net/index2.html

This is the link to his web site if anyone is interested. (hoping it's a link)

[Teach]

Bob, sure I can, but it would be much better if I just quote a fella I know who knows more about DS conversions than anyone else.

"If the centerline of the wheel stays in the same place, then static loading on the final drive bearings remains the same, regardless of how you get there.
All that the bearings 'see' is how far away from me is the load applied (centerline) and how much (total mass being supported at that wheel).

If you offset the wheel farther away from the final drive, then the output shaft will see a larger moment load which will result in addition loading on the bearings.

Imagine a bar held horizontally in your hand, as a weight gets moved farther out away from your hand it has a greater torque load that your hand/wrist much resist in order to keep the bar from sagging.

-----

Now, imagine adding extra weight at the same spot on the bar you are holding, and you will agree that it also takes more work to hold the bar level, right?
That is analogous to what would happen if you go with a heavier wheel/tire.
OR..... if you add extra mass.

Except, our wheel assembly is not hanging out in space, it is resting on the ground and holding up the final drive (and rest of the bike/rig).
So when stopped the extra weight of the heavier wheel has no effect on the load seen by the final drive bearings.

BUT....
You didn't buy the bike/rig just to have it parked and looking pretty, so you drive down the road. And while driving down the road you will hit bumps, causing the suspension to move.
NOW that added wheel/tire mass does have some effect. The wheel/tire/final drive/swingarm is all mounted "below" the spring/shock unit and is refered to as the 'Unsprung Mass'.
Greater unsprung mass affects how quickly/well the suspension can react to being bumped. Basically, it takes more energy to both get it moving, and stop that movement when you have more mass.
Which means that with a heavier wheel/tire your suspension is going to feel harsher, and in some cases may not stay in contact with the road/trail as well.

And, there is then an inertial force that is transmitted to the bearings of the final drive as the wheel bounces around on the end of the output shaft. The larger the mass that the final drive bearings are trying to control, the more load the bearings see.
The heavier the wheel/adapter, the more force transmitted. And, the rougher the road/trail, the more inertial force transmitted through the output bearings due to larger/faster/more frequent movements of the unsprung mass.

Yes, inertial loading is probably a smaller component to the final drive bearing loads than static loading, but NOT insignificant."

Hope this helps.......

[bob109]

Bob, sure I can, but it would be much better if I just quote a fella I know who knows more about DS conversions than anyone else.

"If the centerline of the wheel stays in the same place, then static loading on the final drive bearings remains the same, regardless of how you get there.
All that the bearings 'see' is how far away from me is the load applied (centerline) and how much (total mass being supported at that wheel).

If you offset the wheel farther away from the final drive, then the output shaft will see a larger moment load which will result in addition loading on the bearings.

Imagine a bar held horizontally in your hand, as a weight gets moved farther out away from your hand it has a greater torque load that your hand/wrist much resist in order to keep the bar from sagging.

-----

Now, imagine adding extra weight at the same spot on the bar you are holding, and you will agree that it also takes more work to hold the bar level, right?
That is analogous to what would happen if you go with a heavier wheel/tire.
OR..... if you add extra mass.

Except, our wheel assembly is not hanging out in space, it is resting on the ground and holding up the final drive (and rest of the bike/rig).
So when stopped the extra weight of the heavier wheel has no effect on the load seen by the final drive bearings.

BUT....
You didn't buy the bike/rig just to have it parked and looking pretty, so you drive down the road. And while driving down the road you will hit bumps, causing the suspension to move.
NOW that added wheel/tire mass does have some effect. The wheel/tire/final drive/swingarm is all mounted "below" the spring/shock unit and is refered to as the 'Unsprung Mass'.
Greater unsprung mass affects how quickly/well the suspension can react to being bumped. Basically, it takes more energy to both get it moving, and stop that movement when you have more mass.
Which means that with a heavier wheel/tire your suspension is going to feel harsher, and in some cases may not stay in contact with the road/trail as well.

And, there is then an inertial force that is transmitted to the bearings of the final drive as the wheel bounces around on the end of the output shaft. The larger the mass that the final drive bearings are trying to control, the more load the bearings see.
The heavier the wheel/adapter, the more force transmitted. And, the rougher the road/trail, the more inertial force transmitted through the output bearings due to larger/faster/more frequent movements of the unsprung mass.

Yes, inertial loading is probably a smaller component to the final drive bearing loads than static loading, but NOT insignificant."

Hope this helps.......

I deeply appreciate your informed response :icon_wink: Your time at the podium was well spent:clap2:

Cordially

Bob

[Mustangjake]

The first law is easy to believe:*The friction between two surfaces is proportional to the force pressing one to the other.*This force could be the weight of a motorcycle pressing the tire into the pavement, or the clamping force pressing two pieces of wood together. "Proportional" just means that if you double the pressing force you double the friction.*The second law is where all the trouble starts. To understand it, suppose you set up an experiment. You put a brick on a table and investigate how much force it takes to start the brick sliding. You screw an eyebolt into the brick, run a line from the eyebolt to a pulley on the edge of the table, and then attach weights to the end of the line. You add weight until the brick starts to slide.Now here's the interesting part, and the surprising part. You would notice that the orientation of the brick doesn't make any difference. That is, the friction is the same whether the brick is on its large face, the smaller side, or the small end.

I never compared a brick to a tire!

[Steve 0080]

As far as the brick goes....You are measuring the drag coefficient of the table or surface the brick is on….drag coefficient means little in this discussion…other than the power needed to move the brick/tire or the stopping ability on the surface…

[Gumby]

The first law is easy to believe:*The friction between two surfaces is proportional to the force pressing one to the other.*This force could be the weight of a motorcycle pressing the tire into the pavement, or the clamping force pressing two pieces of wood together. "Proportional" just means that if you double the pressing force you double the friction.*The second law is where all the trouble starts. To understand it, suppose you set up an experiment. You put a brick on a table and investigate how much force it takes to start the brick sliding. You screw an eyebolt into the brick, run a line from the eyebolt to a pulley on the edge of the table, and then attach weights to the end of the line. You add weight until the brick starts to slide.Now here's the interesting part, and the surprising part. You would notice that the orientation of the brick doesn't make any difference. That is, the friction is the same whether the brick is on its large face, the smaller side, or the small end.

I never compared a brick to a tire!


If that was relevant in tires a dragster would have skinny tires for the least rolling resistance.

They, of course, do not.

We had a physics teacher that told his students otherwise using the brick example. his insistence that the bumblebee could not possibly fly despite observational proof turned dozens of kids off of physics. His successor showed where he was wrong. I forget how she did it.

The reason I don't welcome Teach's input is because there are hundreds of threads debating the merits of ct. I don't want to hear from any more people who have never and will never try it. 100,000s of thousands of miles have been very successfully been put on CTs. Probably millions of miles. The question I'd like to explore, and what this thread was about, is what kind of CT is the best for the F6B. The endless debate just detracts from that with no benefit.

[MichaelG]

The reason I don't welcome Teach's input is because there are hundreds of threads debating the merits of ct. I don't want to hear from any more people who have never and will never try it. 100,000s of thousands of miles have been very successfully been put on CTs. Probably millions of miles. The question I'd like to explore, and what this thread was about, is what kind of CT is the best for the F6B. The endless debate just detracts from that with no benefit.


Well said, Gumby...well said.

[Teach]

Gumby,

You see there in lies your problem, you did not read and you ASSUMED wrong. I posted right up front that I have in fact ridden with a Darkside setup, in fact I have THOUSANDS of miles riding on that setup. I still have a brand new Potenza sitting in my barn that didn't get used.
That mistake aside, you cannot make an INFORMED decision as to the merits and/or pitfalls of running a CT, without considering ALL the variables (hence my discourse with Bob). IMO there is a SIGNIFICANT down side to running a DS rig on a single sided swingarm, aka FD as opposed to a traditional 2 sided swingarm. Far more variables to consider in setup. There is also the hydroplaning argument which cannot be gotten around. There are SURELY benefits to running DS like more rubber on the road, longer tire life, less tippy when stationary.... but you cannot discount the negatives.
You can run whatever setup you want, your bike, your money and your life in the saddle. All I'm saying is be INFORMED. That means when someone tells you a CT won't hydroplane any more than a bike tire, know it for the BS it is. That doesn't mean don't run the CT, it means know it WILL hydroplane much easier than a bike tire so you don't put yourself in a BAD situation. It means know that an alum wheel will NOT in all instances be the best choice of wheel, factor in weight. Cool looks could get you dead or damage your bike badly. It means with a final drive like the GW has, being on center is very important as is the total weight of your setup, for safety and to prevent damage to the bike.
I am sorry you felt we were debating the merit of running a DS setup, rather than discussing things of importance, things that NEED to be considered when pondering a DS setup.

ps... I run a DS rig on my BMW when towing my trailer (FD, single sided swingarm) and I am as informed as one could get on the merits and pitfalls. Bet you didn't see that coming either:icon_wink:

[bobbyf6b]

The hydroplaning argument is BS. If that was an issue then the trikes would be slip sliding all over the place, they run two CT's.

The guy I met last weekend was running a winter tire. Softer compound (better grip), more sipes (better wet traction) and long wear. And what MT has center water channels like a CT?

736

FYI, I haven't put a CT on my bike YET, but I have ridden bikes with them and had no issue with it. When the only argument is "you can't do that cuz it isn't safe" then I can't wait to do it, especially when tons of other people are doing it with great results. I don't understand the passion against it. Doing wheelies isn't safe, but I bet alot more people have been hurt or damaged their bikes from doing wheelies then from running a CT.

737

:icon_deadhorse:

[Steve 0080]

....I call B.S. on a CT hydroplaning ...I have ridden in an absolute monsoon and the bike never even squirmed....my definition of a monsoon...raining in buckets with a minimum of one inch of water on the road... I would not say it is impossible, but I would think less than a MC tire..... whole different story if you have 40K miles on it and it is worn out...

[bob109]

First and foremost things are beginning to spin out of control on this Post/Threads. This in not what I had in mind when I made the decision to share my experience with a CT on my F6B. Unfortunately in my "terse way" I've managed to offend several people and I humbly apologize for that. We have extremely dedicated riders/cyclists who have shared valid concerns and they are being "trashed" for doing so. This topic of a CT on a motorcycle deserves the "entire picture", "pros and cons" etc. Only then can individuals make a rational choice on what is right for them. All the elements that have been mentioned to date are valid, bar none. We can disagree but lets do it in a fashion which doesn't offend, attack or otherwise show contempt for each other. We have enough of that inside Washington's Belt Way.
Knowing every possible scenario on this highly charged topic requires debate. We can do that like the gentleman we all are!

Respectfully

Bob

[bobbyf6b]

I meant no disrespect nor felt any. Just throwing in my two pennies.

[Steve 0080]

+1............

[Mustangjake]

I getting the one I post the picture Of earlier my Daughter is buying it for me for my birthday!
Otherwise I would already had it. As i get older she says it hard to find me something.
I her though college + she's a RN now :) I did some good in my life!

[Teach]

Bob, probably a good bit of the blame goes my way. I could have been more clear with my intensions and I should know how folks would read some of it. So actually the apology should be mine.

Bobbyf6b and Steve, sorry fella's but just because you have some "thought" of what hydroplaning should feel like, or because trikes use CT's, does not void the reality. Hydroplaning simply means the tire contact with the road surface is interfered with by the liquid, in most traditional arguments, rain water. The larger the contact patch the greater the interference. MC tires as a rule do NOT HP because of the very limited contact patch.
Yes a CT has MANY sipes to channel water out, but it can't get it all out and particularly when you have a fraction of the weight applied. Obviously the NARROWER the CT you go with, the better to reduce the affect.
So Steve you wouldn't KNOW or FEEL your bike hydroplaning necessarily. You might if you had to maneuver quickly or brake abruptly. Think of it like this: You hydroplane your car routinely, don't know it, but it is in common on both rain and snow. Lets use snow because it is an easier visual. You drive along on snow covered roads no problem but you need to make a left turn and you didn't adjust speed. What's the car do? Obviously it slides sideways as it tries to maintain a forward line even though you are trying to turn left. Can be a slight slide or severe depending upon speed, temps, tread design, tire width.
Ideally with a CT on a bike you'd run pressure near the 32-35 psi which would have you ROLL from side to side on the tire like on a bike tire. Most folks running DS run MUCH lower pressures thus keeping the tire relatively flat on the road and allowing the sidewall flex to roll. Down sides to both and pro's to both. The point here is that ALL of these factors come into play, so know they do and account for them. I don't want you fellas feeling defensive about this discussion. It is from my position just discussion, stuff that should be known by anyone running DS. Ride safe fellas

And again MY apology if something I said offended you all.

[MichaelG]

Lets use snow because it is an easier visual. You drive along on snow covered roads no problem but you need to make a left turn and you didn't adjust speed. What's the car do? Obviously it slides sideways as it tries to maintain a forward line even though you are trying to turn left. Can be a slight slide or severe depending upon speed, temps, tread design, tire width.




Ah....I drive an AWD Subaru Forester, with serious snow tires on snow wheels in the Winter time, so...I have no idea what this slipping and sliding is all about:icon_rolleyes:

[bob109]

Teach:

Your observation on tire traction is "dead on". It correctly articulates what dynamics are coming into play when a "wider thread" replaces that of a "narrower thread" irregardless it be a CT or MT. A dear old friend, who never rode a cycle, had a simple tire observation. "Wide Walks On"/"Narrow Cuts Through", and that applied to snow or water. These is inherent risk involved with "Dark Side Riding" which you are personally aware of. When selecting a CT for a cycle application, that tire dimensionally, should mirror that of the M/T it replaces and that includes tire weight. Knowing all the facts before pulling the trigger on a C/T will not eliminate risk but will reduce it. Your input on tire weight was also correct and brought light to it's importance. It is another important factor which needs to be taken into account especially when folks are selecting "heavier run flat tires".

I thank you for your important and valued input:clap2:

Bob

[Mustangjake]

I was at the Honda dealer last weekend. And i started talking to the salesman about my F6 and was telling him I was I was putting a General car tire on my F6B. He said no you don't want to do that Insurance companies will not cover you It's a loophole out for them!
I was back up there today, Talking to the guys about Different bikes we have owned. I went wandering through the sales floor ran into the salesman again, Started talking about windshield and how the F6B Hondaline windshield tappered too much. Then we started talking about tires again Out of the blue he says (I hope everybody with a car tire on the bike crashes and dies). I was like WTF Thank you very much, I bought three Bikes from this shop. What an attitude !

[Gumby]

I have found car tires get much better traction in the wet than motorcycle tires. Car tires are specifically designed for the wet. Motorcycle tires typically have shallower grooves and work for shit in the wet.

Once again it's what you think might be true vs. what is actually true.

[troypennock]

I had a Potenza on a Valkyrie Std and an Interstate and I put a Khumo on GW I had and a GW I still have. The purpose was to get better braking power when it is wet (in Houston that used to be frequently) and to avoid the 10K tire change routine. I do NOT intend to go DS on the F6B until I see it on the roads dry, wet, and with loose dirt. At least that is the plan. Then again, if I ever park next to another F6B and he is running a fatty; well, all bets are pretty much off.

[Deer Slayer]

I have run on the Dark side over 80,000 miles on Gl1800. Two Wings and now my new F6B. I am very happy. I run Bridgestone Ecopia, or how ever you spell it.. lol....Run 31 psi single rider and pull Bunkhouse camper. A big ole tire is nice for quick stops. Now have trailer hitch on F6B. Isolation box was not plug and play as there is no trunk on the F6B. Go figure? I spliced it into the wiring.

[Teach]

Mustangjake, actually no such loophole exists for insurance companies with regards to running a CT on a motorcycle. Lots of folks repeat what they heard somewhere and this is one of those claims. It would be like arguing that the insurance company could deny claims because you ran a motorcycle tire other than OEM.

Gumby, you have a great deal more contact patch with the CT on dry roads, so you would logically have more rubber on the road and therefore better traction. However that is deceptive because it doesn't account for the stickier compounds used in MC tires. I'd have to see the data before I could confirm better traction. On wet roads the MC tire is SUPERIOR for traction. Two reasons; Limited contact patch which means little chance of hydroplaning, and secondly the silicates utilized in the motorcycle compounds. WAY more sticky than anything used in a conventional car tire.
While the depth of the tire grooves plays a limited role in the dispersion of water, the compound, groove direction, and tire compound play a much greater role. I know you are just screwin with me but I'll toss out another example for you, easy visual. If tire grooves were the sole factor in traction, offroad truck tires would just be big ole knobbies, MX motorcycle tires would be the same, and all street MC tires would have groove patterns like a car.
Tell you what, you find me a single café racer willing to swap his track day tires for a CT. Now mind you those fellas are running at HUNDREDS of mph, in rain, heat, etc.... and they RELY on the tire COMPOUND for traction. BUT thanks for bringing this up because it is ANOTHER of the wives tales like the "insurance loophole" previously mentioned, that have no scientific merit.

Now if you REALLY want to know the REAL deal?? Put on your darkside setup and go run some 45mph emergency (read panic) stops in the rain. Find a straight seclude road and take someone along to mark and measure. Do the same with a MC tire. The MC tire will stop quicker without skidding than the CT (even with the link). Now I KNOW this to be true, because I've tested it myself. Cool thing about my Beemer is the rear brake is a true trail brake which allows me to test what the rear end is doing alone, and with the front. The CT will skid, read lock up, way easier and quicker than a MC tire.... and once sliding, continues to do so much further than a MC tire before coming to rest. That is the REALITY, not what one would think. This is where the MISCONCEPTIONS about what hydroplaning is, comes into play.

I've tried to share what I have tested, investigated and know from first hand use in this post. Take what you wish and discard that you won't apply. It is not my intention to argue or beat someone into submission. Nor is it my intension to convince anyone to NOT run a DS setup. Do so informed, that's all. Now I am going to walk away from this post because I cannot add anything more of value. Ride safe and I've enjoyed the discourse... T

[troypennock]

The last paragraph of the above post reminds me of something. What was the name of the IRS girl that appeared before congress and said "I did nothing wrong" and then said "I will not answer any questions". What was her name.

[mike neal]

Went with the Hankook Optimo H426 195/60-16 for the following reasons. Weight of this CT is very close to weight of MC tire which addresses some issues raised earlier. This CT has nice rounded edges and great dry and wet weather grip. Have no idea how others ride their F6B but I came off the ST1300 and ride mine like I stole it out of your garage. Put 4k miles on mine in first two weeks though the mountains of Colorado and eventually ended up in Sturgis then dropped back down into Texas. This tire is really close to overall height, sidewall height and total rollout to the OEM stones. I think the conversion for MC tire at 65mph and this CT was just under 66mph. The sidewall stress issue of the CT is a non issue for me as we raced Spec Miata cars at road courses all over the USA for years and used spec Toyo and Hankook passenger car tires for racing. 2500 pounds of race car at +100mph for 45 min per race puts these Car Tires under more sidewall stress than any
F6B could ever generate. I personally used the Hankooks until they were down to the cord and never had a blowout or any sidewall issues on the Spec Miata. My Yamaha 1300 also had the Hankook CT and delivered over 20k miles before trading it in on the ST1300 which also had the Hankook CT. The only issue we have discovered with 195/60-16 is that it really likes 44 psi to stiffen up the sidewall if you decide to take on the canyon carver 650's. Mine bagger scrapes a bit but most of that is due to hanging off the seat and really getting with the program but it sure is fun to see the young guys faces when we stop for a soda and the see the "old guy" on a bagger with a CT still having a ball. Maybe I will always be a racer at heart and the F6B has a lot of old guy racer details that make it a hoot to ride.

Stay focused on the fact that some riders will enjoy the extra milage and savings of the CT and other riders will enjoy the security of the OEM MC tire. Just one last thought....the CT will work fine on the MC rim BUT it is my opinion the MC tire will not mate up properly to the CT rim. Another thread had a great article on rim specs, contact area and angles....good reading.
Ride Safe and if you are ever in East Texas
Stop in say Hi and let me show you a nice ride down HWY225
Mike Neal

[bob109]

Thanks Mike for the informative post. I share your confidence in the ability of a CT to handle any side wall stresses generated by the F6B.
Currently have just over 3k miles on the General G-Max 195/55-R16 and those have been trouble free with great handling and ride comfort. Having ridden with several groups of riders, all are amazed at the way my 6 carves corners with the CT. A few of those riders are on the verge of taking the leap to the DS. I still stress to all those considering a CT to do their "home work" and get as much input from DS riders as they can. Teach, a very knowledgeable individual on the subject of CT's on motorcycles, provided some excellent and valued info on tire weight and the potential impact it could have on single swing arm setups like those on the F6B. Folks who know the "whole picture" can make a informed decision with excellent results:icon_biggrin:

[bobbyf6b]

Followed two DS riders today on a PGR mission. One rides a Victory with a winter run flat tire and the other rides a Royal Star with just a standard tire. Both handled great as I watched them ride. It's a shame so many people are against it. Oh well, you can't please everyone!

1011

[kjelders]

I'll step into this discussion.

I ran a Michelin HydroEdge on my VTX 1800R and it had over 14,000 miles on the tire when I sold the bike.

Several comments I will make.
1. Hydroplaning more with a CT....Fairy tale. You can quote all the engineers, use any mathematical formulas you want. Just one of the many experiences in the rain, I ran down I40 from Nashville, TN to Memphis, TN is a downpour. As most know, I40 is nothing but "packs" of truckers which will do a number on the pavement creating those tract channels. When raining, those tracks fill with water. The HydroEdge was sticking to the pavement like glue at 70+ mph shooting a 10' rooster tail. Did I use an formula for that experience? Nope, the seat of my pants and what I was feeling and not feeling. No one knows how my bike "feels" better than I do.

2. The softer sidewall of a car tire can't take the flexing that a motorcycle tire does....Fairy tale. As someone stated before, it's not 4,000lbs flexing the sidewall of the tire. I ran the dragon tail several times with some of my TN friends and all of us on VTX's. After they tried keeping up with me on those 318 curves, 3 of them went to CT afterwards.

CT are not going to be for everyone for whatever reason. I don't push anyone to try a CT. I bought the Kumho RF for my 07 wing and I had just 7k on it when I sold the wing last week. I kept the wheel and tire. Guess what is going on my F6B when it's time for a rear tire?

Last comment: To date there has NOT been a report of a motorcycle accident that was the results of a CT on the motorcycle.

[redinoliver]

Has anyone tried a bridgestone driveguard RF?.

[Steve 0080]

Test to move

[mtcgun]

I've had a plastidipped black wheel on the back for right at 10000 miles now, just looked at it yesterday and could find 0 rock chips or anything. Love the stuff. I think I probably did about 5-6 coats

[ths61]

The last paragraph of the above post reminds me of something. What was the name of the IRS girl that appeared before congress and said "I did nothing wrong" and then said "I will not answer any questions". What was her name.

Lois Lerner:

16642

[willtill]

I've always been 50/50 pro/con for the D/S. I may just do a dark side on this bike this time. The lean angle is not as severe as other bikes I've had.

[Hornblower]

I've always been 50/50 pro/con for the D/S. I may just do a dark side on this bike this time. The lean angle is not as severe as other bikes I've had.

Considering the possible lean angle is severely limited by hard parts, your decision to go dark side is a non-issue. In addition, you will have a greater contact patch at maximum lean angle going DS than with your regular motorcycle tire.

[shooter]

That's a good point Ken. CT wouldn't work too good on a sport bike.

[bob109]

Considering the possible lean angle is severely limited by hard parts, your decision to go dark side is a non-issue. In addition, you will have a greater contact patch at maximum lean angle going DS than with your regular motorcycle tire.

3437

A picture paints a thousand words especially when it comes to "contact patches" and "lean angles":icon_wink: