2016 Indian Dark Horse

[taxfree4]

Nice bike for 17K although I'm not crazy about the styling. IMHO I just don't think it's a real alternative for a Harley rider. V-Twin, air-cooled - what's the alternative? If they would have liquid-cooled it like the Scout that would have been a major selling point and would have had a lot of city people who are in traffic, lane closures and parkway construction daily, we'll see how it sells.

[bigbird]

Any news on your Royal Enfield one lunger?

[taxfree4]

Well by spring I'll be looking to dump this 1200 so I figured by then the Enfield should have a dealer within a decent distance from me. Although that Scout is really looking good to me because it's liquid cooled.

[bigbird]

Well by spring I'll be looking to dump this 1200 so I figured by then the Enfield should have a dealer within a decent distance from me. Although that Scout is really looking good to me because it's liquid cooled.


The Scout has glowing feedback from the magazines compared to the R.E.
If your resources are adequate, I'd say just get the Scout. It's way more bike than the R.E. (much safer, more reliable even though it's new, infinitely more powerful, better dealer network, and of course way better resale value down the road).

But what do I know? I'm just another dumb lemming Canadian, who gets constantly :bendover: by his government.

[taxfree4]

The thing is I don't want too much of a motorcycle, meaning, I need something for these short runs in the city. Then F6B is just too much to run 5-10 blocks away. I had an 883 Sportster that I lost in Hurricane Sandy so when I replaced it I was bitten by the power bug. That is why the Enfield with its' single cylinder 28HP motor is sounding good, we'll see.

[Steve 0080]

Honda just came out with a Black Shadow....Black must really be the fastest color !!!! "fireybat"

[taxfree4]

That is even too big, cc-wise, it looks like a toss up between the Enfield Thunderbird 350 or, forgot about this, Honda Rebel. Something when you're too lazy to take a car or a 800+ Lb. bike.

[powercruzer13]

Oh joy..... another V-twink "variation".
Just what the world needs. :jerkit::icon_rolleyes:

[mercator1]

Looking forward to checking out the Ducati Scramblers for an around town bike.

[shooter]

I've got one word for you. GROM.

[Cool Hand Luke]

more pictures:

113531135411355

Basically the same bike as before with matt black paint and less parts on it to make it cheaper, oops I meant lighter... No passengers need apply as it comes with solo seat and no passenger pegs, so must spend more if needed... I do have a problem with oil cooler removed as this is a functional item. Also no extra running lights. When you take all the stuff you may need to add and fugly primer looking black paint I don't think it's such a good deal.

New paint and less parts don't make for a new bike model in my mind.

[Limoles]

Looking forward to checking out the Ducati Scramblers for an around town bike.

Yes - this bike has excellent review . I would love to take a test ride and compare to Honda CB 1100 , which I like a lot. Triumps , Moto-Guzzis , KTMs , and BMW RnineT . I want them all !!!

[hiflyer]

Yes - this bike has excellent review . I would love to take a test ride and compare to Honda CB 1100 , which I like a lot. Triumps , Moto-Guzzis , KTMs , and BMW RnineT . I want them all !!!

I like the Triumph.

[Limoles]

I like the Triumph.

Yes - and it's in the same price as Ducati ( +/- $8.5K ).
Now is a fashion for "rejuvanated" SCRAMBLERS ...

[taxfree4]

Yes - this bike has excellent review . I would love to take a test ride and compare to Honda CB 1100 , which I like a lot. Triumps , Moto-Guzzis , KTMs , and BMW RnineT . I want them all !!!

Don't forget Bimota

[bobbyf6b]

That is even too big, cc-wise, it looks like a toss up between the Enfield Thunderbird 350 or, forgot about this, Honda Rebel. Something when you're too lazy to take a car or a 800+ Lb. bike.

There's the new Harley Street, but the bummer is it costs almost as much as a Sporty. I rode a 750 and it was actually a hoot.

11366

[Cool Hand Luke]

There's the new Harley Street, but the bummer is it costs almost as much as a Sporty. I rode a 750 and it was actually a hoot.

11366

I agree, nice little bike, seems like it would be reliable. I'm looking forward to seeing some customized versions soon.

I have a VRSCF for about 4 years now and it has been fun and greatly reliable bike so far.

[taxfree4]

There's the new Harley Street, but the bummer is it costs almost as much as a Sporty. I rode a 750 and it was actually a hoot.

11366

The problem I have with that is this is Harley's first step into a liquid-cooled V-Twin street bike, that I can recall, and being that they've always used the public as their R&D I would be apprehensive on a new model, if I was interested. There are companies that have been doing this for years and are extremely successful at it with much lower priced models.

[Cool Hand Luke]

The problem I have with that is this is Harley's first step into a liquid-cooled V-Twin street bike, that I can recall, and being that they've always used the public as their R&D I would be apprehensive on a new model, if I was interested. There are companies that have been doing this for years and are extremely successful at it with much lower priced models.

Definitely not the first:

From Wikipedia:

Revolution engine

The Revolution engine is based on the VR-1000 Superbike race program, co-developed by Harley-Davidson's Powertrain Engineering team and Porsche Engineering in Stuttgart, Germany. It is a liquid cooled, dual overhead cam, internally counterbalanced 60 degree V-twin engine with a displacement of 69 cubic inch (1,130 cc), producing 115 hp (86 kW) at 8,250 rpm at the crank, with a redline of 9,000 rpm.[105][106] It was introduced for the new V-Rod line in 2001 for the 2002 model year, starting with the single VRSCA (V-Twin Racing Street Custom) model.[107][108]

A 1,250 cc Screamin' Eagle version of the Revolution engine was made available for 2005 and 2006, and was present thereafter in a single production model from 2005 to 2007. In 2008, the 1,250 cc Revolution Engine became standard for the entire VRSC line. Harley-Davidson claims 123 hp (92 kW) at the crank for the 2008 VRSCAW model. The VRXSE Destroyer is equipped with a stroker (75 mm crank) Screamin' Eagle 79 cubic inch (1,300 cc) Revolution Engine, producing more than 165 hp (123 kW).

750cc and 500cc versions of the Revolution engine will be used in Harley Davidson's new Street line of light cruisers.[109] These motors, named the Revolution X, use a single overhead cam, screw and locknut valve adjustment, a single internal counterbalancer, and vertically split crankcases; all of these changes making it different from the original Revolution design.

[taxfree4]

Definitely not the first:

From Wikipedia:

Revolution engine

The Revolution engine is based on the VR-1000 Superbike race program, co-developed by Harley-Davidson's Powertrain Engineering team and Porsche Engineering in Stuttgart, Germany. It is a liquid cooled, dual overhead cam, internally counterbalanced 60 degree V-twin engine with a displacement of 69 cubic inch (1,130 cc), producing 115 hp (86 kW) at 8,250 rpm at the crank, with a redline of 9,000 rpm.[105][106] It was introduced for the new V-Rod line in 2001 for the 2002 model year, starting with the single VRSCA (V-Twin Racing Street Custom) model.[107][108]

A 1,250 cc Screamin' Eagle version of the Revolution engine was made available for 2005 and 2006, and was present thereafter in a single production model from 2005 to 2007. In 2008, the 1,250 cc Revolution Engine became standard for the entire VRSC line. Harley-Davidson claims 123 hp (92 kW) at the crank for the 2008 VRSCAW model. The VRXSE Destroyer is equipped with a stroker (75 mm crank) Screamin' Eagle 79 cubic inch (1,300 cc) Revolution Engine, producing more than 165 hp (123 kW).

750cc and 500cc versions of the Revolution engine will be used in Harley Davidson's new Street line of light cruisers.[109] These motors, named the Revolution X, use a single overhead cam, screw and locknut valve adjustment, a single internal counterbalancer, and vertically split crankcases; all of these changes making it different from the original Revolution design.

Correct, but it says these are NEW versions of that motor, which means they were engineered down for the first time, no?

[Cool Hand Luke]

Correct, but it says these are NEW versions of that motor, which means they were engineered down for the first time, no?

I believe you are right. I do think HD applied what they learned of liquid cooled v twins from VRod years into designing the new Street engine. Revolution engine has proven to be reliable and potent, that's why I think that these new bikes should be good to go as well. In fact, I think that since VRod grew to 1250cc and produced roughly 125 HP and 86 ft pounds of torque, is why HD engineers decided that a smaller displacement of 750cc will still have enough power to make it fun to ride. These engines should prove much more reliable than similarly sized Sportsters in my opinion.

I applaud HD for offering a new line of bikes aimed at younger generations of riders, at lower cost than a typical HD with more modern technology. I for one would never again buy a air cooled lumpy engine when better choices exist.

[taxfree4]

I've just had too many issues with them with their air-cooled engines that I would like to see a couple of years of performance before considering. My buddy bought a 2014 Screaming Eagle Electra Glide and has been in the shop all summer, didn't even get to ride it, what was it 40K. The only thing screaming is him at the dealer. I won in court for a throttle lag issue, enough. Till they straighten the air-cooled bikes I'm done. Honda dealerships are so much more accomodating, cheaper, nicer and without the attitude. Better product IMHO at a better price, once I dump this pig, the Sportster, I think that'll be it for me and HOG.

[Cool Hand Luke]

I've just had too many issues with them with their air-cooled engines that I would like to see a couple of years of performance before considering. My buddy bought a 2014 Screaming Eagle Electra Glide and has been in the shop all summer, didn't even get to ride it, what was it 40K. The only thing screaming is him at the dealer. I won in court for a throttle lag issue, enough. Till they straighten the air-cooled bikes I'm done. Honda dealerships are so much more accomodating, cheaper, nicer and without the attitude. Better product IMHO at a better price, once I dump this pig, the Sportster, I think that'll be it for me and HOG.

I agree in regard to air cooled engines. The VRods are completely different animals. Also, The HD Stealer experiences do vary.

A friend of mine is a Service Manager at HD Stealership, he told me that his boss does not like selling VRods. When I asked why, he answered that they don't need work, pretty much just the maintenance only, so the stealership does not make much money on them after the sale. But their service bays are full with air cooled Harleys all the time.

HD has been making water cooled engines since 2002 and there isn't much bad news to be found about them. It figures, since they were designed by Germans...

My Honda dealer is very pleasant to deal with, too. Not much fun to go there as there isn't much to see in the store. I wish that Honda Dealership would carry more accessories in stock like HD guys do.

Here's my 2009 HD VRSCF Muscle:


2620262111379

And this is why I liked it from the start:

1138011381

[bigbird]

Regarding maintenance on the new Street 750 generation of engines, I see their valve train is SOHC, 4 valve, with screw and locknut valve adjustment every 15k miles. That certainly makes it easy for the DIY'er to avoid the HD shops for routine maintenance.

[Cool Hand Luke]

Regarding maintenance on the new Street 750 generation of engines, I see their valve train is SOHC, 4 valve, with screw and locknut valve adjustment every 15k miles. That certainly makes it easy for the DIY'er to avoid the HD shops for routine maintenance.

I agree! The less visits to the stealership the better!

Just for your viewing pleasure:

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[Limoles]

http://www.enfieldmotorcycles.com/locator/dealers/usa/states/NEW-JERSEY
http://www.enfieldmotorcycles.com/locator/dealers/usa/states/NEW-YORK
http://www.enfieldmotorcycles.com/locator/dealers/usa/states/PENNSYLVANIA

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Royal-Enfield-C5-Classic-2014-royal-enfield-bullet-c-5-classic-chrome-/201286264559?forcerrptr=true&hash=item2edd98a6ef&item=201286264559&pt=US_motorcycles

[taxfree4]

Wait a minute, now I certainly wouldn't want to upset the ladies.

[taxfree4]

http://www.enfieldmotorcycles.com/locator/dealers/usa/states/NEW-JERSEY
http://www.enfieldmotorcycles.com/locator/dealers/usa/states/NEW-YORK
http://www.enfieldmotorcycles.com/locator/dealers/usa/states/PENNSYLVANIA

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Royal-Enfield-C5-Classic-2014-royal-enfield-bullet-c-5-classic-chrome-/201286264559?forcerrptr=true&hash=item2edd98a6ef&item=201286264559&pt=US_motorcycles

New Hyde Park is the closest thank you, Limoles. I owe you a drink with an umbrella in it and a fruit Kebab by Harrah's poolside.

[taxfree4]

I agree in regard to air cooled engines. The VRods are completely different animals. Also, The HD Stealer experiences do vary.

A friend of mine is a Service Manager at HD Stealership, he told me that his boss does not like selling VRods. When I asked why, he answered that they don't need work, pretty much just the maintenance only, so the stealership does not make much money on them after the sale. But their service bays are full with air cooled Harleys all the time.

HD has been making water cooled engines since 2002 and there isn't much bad news to be found about them. It figures, since they were designed by Germans...

My Honda dealer is very pleasant to deal with, too. Not much fun to go there as there isn't much to see in the store. I wish that Honda Dealership would carry more accessories in stock like HD guys do.

Here's my 2009 HD VRSCF Muscle:


113771137811379

And this is why I liked it from the start:

1138011381

Speaking of German engineering, the 2015 Indian Scout has a better power-to weight ratio than a Porsche 911 Turbo so although it looks good on the resume' Porsche doesn't always mean better. Having owned, and thoroughly enjoyed, a 2003 Porsche Boxster S with Tiptronic that was a hard thing to say but they still haven't apologized for the 944 which, IMHO was their version of the Yugo.

[SoCal Rich]

Wait a minute, now I certainly wouldn't want to upset the ladies.

Please feel free to make more such posts!

[Phantom]

Please feel free to make more such posts!

Fill me in .... what are you trying to say on your post ?????? :popcorn: :stirthepot::catfight::poke::shrug:

[hiflyer]

Speaking of German engineering, the 2015 Indian Scout has a better power-to weight ratio than a Porsche 911 Turbo so although it looks good on the resume' Porsche doesn't always mean better. Having owned, and thoroughly enjoyed, a 2003 Porsche Boxster S with Tiptronic that was a hard thing to say but they still haven't apologized for the 944 which, IMHO was their version of the Yugo.

I had a 2012 Cayenne "S". Piece of crap. Bought it new. Used a qt. of oil every 600 miles. Didn't think much about it initially, just thought the German's designed it that way and the rings would seat and would stop. Burned so much oil it screwed up the injection system and the thing ran like same "piece of crap". Argued with the dealer and kept taking it back. Put over 50k miles on it and never ran right. They finally told me they had figured it out, and they were going to have to replace the rings. I told em they could do it for someone else and they needed to give me top dollar in trade for one of their other brands they sold. I will never ever ever buy a high dollar vehicle again. Love my new Silverado!

[Cool Hand Luke]

Never owned a Porsche but my VRSCF is just fine.

More fun pictures of ladies on VRSCF just for fun:

11386113871138811389

[taxfree4]

I had a 2012 Cayenne "S". Piece of crap. Bought it new. Used a qt. of oil every 600 miles. Didn't think much about it initially, just thought the German's designed it that way and the rings would seat and would stop. Burned so much oil it screwed up the injection system and the thing ran like same "piece of crap". Argued with the dealer and kept taking it back. Put over 50k miles on it and never ran right. They finally told me they had figured it out, and they were going to have to replace the rings. I told em they could do it for someone else and they needed to give me top dollar in trade for one of their other brands they sold. I will never ever ever buy a high dollar vehicle again. Love my new Silverado!

My best buddy in Florida had the Cayenne and I think he may have had a similar issue, have to ask him, anyway the whole experience with the dealer and the truck traumatized him so much he drives Prius now, true story.

[hiflyer]

Never owned a Porsche but my VRSCF is just fine.

More fun pictures of ladies on VRSCF just for fun:

]

I bought the first v-rod delivered to the dealer I traded with. Enjoyed it for awhile, I have been dreaming, since that motors introduction, of them upping the displacement and putting it in touring form. I really thought they were going to do that with the 2015 Road glide. And if they ever do offer a fully water cooled, unlike today's system, touring bike, I'll be the first in line

[taxfree4]

Fill me in .... what are you trying to say on your post ?????? :popcorn: :stirthepot::catfight::poke::shrug:

I honestly meant the ladies in the photos I reposted from CH Luke, not to upset them to take a test ride, until I looked closer and saw it was the same girl! I just had my eyes checked Thursday. I think that's what he meant too.

[Limoles]

New Hyde Park is the closest thank you, Limoles. I owe you a drink with an umbrella in it and a fruit Kebab by Harrah's poolside.

Sure - I do accept with or without umbrella . There are more reasons to enjoy pool party . The best one is in time of swimsuit competition . Participants like to be judged , because are no bad scores , ever . Having only one shut of double vodka will make us best jurors around. Let's imagine , if we multiply cocktail's orders .

[Cool Hand Luke]

I bought the first v-rod delivered to the dealer I traded with. Enjoyed it for awhile, I have been dreaming, since that motors introduction, of them upping the displacement and putting it in touring form. I really thought they were going to do that with the 2015 Road glide. And if they ever do offer a fully water cooled, unlike today's system, touring bike, I'll be the first in line

The displacement was upped from 1130cc to 1250cc, which is the size on my VRSCF. Plenty of power and torque. In fact this would make a great touring powerplant and is fully water cooled.

I think HD didn't put it in a dedicated touring platform as it would detract from sales of their other antiquated touring bikes. I guess in HD world touring riders don't need or want real performance and reliability.

So I made my own. I added stuff HD should have done, such as fairing, bags, different seat and handlebar risers.

Maybe eventually HD will make a water cooled tourer but I think not for a while. In the meantime the VRod is most likely the most reliable bike HD still makes.

[taxfree4]

I bought the first v-rod delivered to the dealer I traded with. Enjoyed it for awhile, I have been dreaming, since that motors introduction, of them upping the displacement and putting it in touring form. I really thought they were going to do that with the 2015 Road glide. And if they ever do offer a fully water cooled, unlike today's system, touring bike, I'll be the first in line

The only obstacle I can see with the Revolution is how do you get the displacement you're looking for on a Road Glide in the same space you have a V-Twin now while keeping the tank where it is? I'm not sure where the V-Rod is at but I'll take a stab and say you need 20% more? How do you obtain that without an increase in size of both the engine and the cooling system? There just doesn't seem to be that much room to spare.

[taxfree4]

Sure - I do accept with or without umbrella . There are more reasons to enjoy pool party . The best one is in time of swimsuit competition . Participants like to be judged , because are no bad scores , ever . Having only one shut of double vodka will make us best jurors around. Let's imagine , if we multiply cocktail's orders .

Multiplying cocktail orders is what I was born to do, instead of the vodka double bourbon. How do judge anything with blurred vision?

[hiflyer]

The only obstacle I can see with the Revolution is how do you get the displacement you're looking for on a Road Glide in the same space you have a V-Twin now while keeping the tank where it is? I'm not sure where the V-Rod is at but I'll take a stab and say you need 20% more? How do you obtain that without an increase in size of both the engine and the cooling system? There just doesn't seem to be that much room to spare.

Would have to be a totally new bike, something Harley won't do. I would actually want something that didn't look like everything they've made the last 100+ years. Not to change the subject, but it's a little cool up there tonight isn't it?

[taxfree4]

Would have to be a totally new bike, something Harley won't do. I would actually want something that didn't look like everything they've made the last 100+ years. Not to change the subject, but it's a little cool up there tonight isn't it?

Slightly, today it'll be between 1 and 18 degrees

[Cool Hand Luke]

The only obstacle I can see with the Revolution is how do you get the displacement you're looking for on a Road Glide in the same space you have a V-Twin now while keeping the tank where it is? I'm not sure where the V-Rod is at but I'll take a stab and say you need 20% more? How do you obtain that without an increase in size of both the engine and the cooling system? There just doesn't seem to be that much room to spare.

Does not need to be bigger, 2015 VRSCF is rated at 122HP and 86 foot pounds of torque. It's plenty strong with almost no vibration. In fact, it is faster than F6B 0-60 mph while having less weight, not to mention a current Road Glide. It also has a lower center of gravity due to gas tank being below the seat (5 gallons), so it handles faster.

In comparison, Rider Magazine dynoed 2015 Road Glide High Output 103cc at 72.8 horsepower and 92.0 lb-ft of torque. Road Glide weighs 835lbs. and VRSCF 673lbs.

[Kurare79]

We have regulations in the European Community how much carbon dioxide is allowed to get out of the vehicle every kilometer. If it's too much you are not allowed to sell that vehicle here. Already now you are not allowed to drive into the center of big cities with old cars that pollute the air too much.

This regulations are getting tighter year by year. In the future you can't achieve them anymore with air cooled engines, what means HD wouldn't be allowed to sell his actual range of products in several years in the EU.
I assume this could be one of the reasons HD is changing to liquid cooled engines.

[taxfree4]

That is their dilemna, how do you move forward with a stronghold on the V-Twin market, which is the money maker, not upsetting that crowd of loyalist while needing to advance, technologically, in order to handle these ever- increasing displacement contests between brands? And, more importantly, how do you change anything without first considering the effect of the very well-branded lifestyle, that Harley sells so well.

[Limoles]

Slightly, today it'll be between 1 and 18 degrees

This winter is a BigBird's curse . I asked him to keep that got damn winter around his arctic circle , but he didn't listen.

[Limoles]

That is their dilemna, how do you move forward with a stronghold on the V-Twin market, which is the money maker, not upsetting that crowd of loyalist while needing to advance, technologically, in order to handle these ever- increasing displacement contests between brands? And, more importantly, how do you change anything without first considering the effect of the very well-branded lifestyle, that Harley sells so well.
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We have regulations in the European Community how much carbon dioxide is allowed to get out of the vehicle every kilometer. If it's too much you are not allowed to sell that vehicle here. Already now you are not allowed to drive into the center of big cities with old cars that pollute the air too much.

This regulations are getting tighter year by year. In the future you can't achieve them anymore with air cooled engines, what means HD wouldn't be allowed to sell his actual range of products in several years in the EU.
I assume this could be one of the reasons HD is changing to liquid cooled engines.



http://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/why-things-are-the-way-they-are-a-farewell-to-air-cooling

[taxfree4]

Does not need to be bigger, 2015 VRSCF is rated at 122HP and 86 foot pounds of torque. It's plenty strong with almost no vibration. In fact, it is faster than F6B 0-60 mph while having less weight, not to mention a current Road Glide. It also has a lower center of gravity due to gas tank being below the seat (5 gallons), so it handles faster.

In comparison, Rider Magazine dynoed 2015 Road Glide High Output 103cc at 72.8 horsepower and 92.0 lb-ft of torque. Road Glide weighs 835lbs. and VRSCF 673lbs.

On paper that sounds great but I'd like to see that in reality. Isn't the Revo a 60 degree V? So now aren't we looking at frame reconstruction? In the end it's their headache but if you put anything but that air-cooled V-Twin in any one of their touring models that bike will sit there a long time. People don't buy Harleys for the latest technology, they buy them because they look good, sound great and are easy to work on. You start mucking with that and that's a recipe for disaster. They dug themselves a nice, deep hole.

[racer]

There's the new Harley Street, but the bummer is it costs almost as much as a Sporty. I rode a 750 and it was actually a hoot.

11366

I'd take a Yamaha Bolt ahead of the sporty or its little 750 and 550 brothers.



http://www.cycleworld.com/2013/08/26/2013-yamaha-star-bolt-vs-harley-davidson-sportster-iron-883-urban-cruiser-comparison-test/


The Bolt is more manageable during aggressive riding and more comfortable for freeway stints. It’s got a better power curve, stops better, turns better, doesn’t shake your fillings loose. Overall, it’s the bike that feels more like a motorcycle and less like a life-size toy.