Cleveland baby dies in accidental shooting

[Limoles]

ANOTHER TRAGIC EVENT RELATED TO POSSESSION OF GUN "IN UNNECESSARILY SELF DEFENSE MATTER" .

(CNN)A 1-year-old child was shot and killed Sunday, possibly by a toddler, after a firearm was left unattended, authorities in Cleveland said.
Cleveland Police Chief Calvin Williams told CNN affiliate WEWS that several other children and at least one adult were in the house at the time of the shooting.
Preliminary information indicates a 3-year-old pulled the trigger, he said, but authorities are still investigating.
"It's a sad day for Cleveland," said Williams. "Currently we're investigating where this firearm came from. We're also investigating how this tragedy actually happened."
He promised that those responsible would be held accountable.
According to Cleveland Emergency Medical Service Capt. Michael Threat, the baby was shot in the face.
"This fascination that we have with handguns -- not just in the city but in this country -- has to stop. This is a senseless loss of life," the police chief said.

One more example for horrific death . It's not about "patriotic readiness" to cover hysteria of hate , addressed to "Nazi's , Commie's , and tree huggers infiltrating the ranks" , but blindness , which is destroying our country .

[stroguy]

More from the shill.

When will this senseless fascination with water sports end? Nearly 6 times as many accidental drownings occur as compared to gun deaths. When will we begin to ban these killers from our society?

Because our real concern is eliminating 100% of the accidental deaths.......RIGHT? No matter where they are from, RIGHT?

GRAND RAPIDS, MI -- A toddler was pronounced dead Friday after he was pulled unresponsive from his family's pool in Grand Rapids.

The 22-month-old boy went missing during a family gathering in the 2600 block of Moerland Drive NW. Relatives called police about 6:25 p.m., at which point they believed the boy had been gone for an hour, police said.

The child was located in the backyard in-ground pool about 7 p.m. Authorities on scene performed CPR before the boy was transported by AMR to Helen DeVos Children's Hospital.

Officials believe the death was an accidental cold water drowning.

Police do not yet know how the boy got outside or how long he may have been in the water.

[stroguy]

Why must we have these chemicals around? We must end this senseless culture of having poisons around the home. 10X as many children die in accidental poisoning than from handguns. When will we eliminate this senseless slaughter of our children? The chemical companies are murdering our children.



A second child has died in a case of accidental poisoning in Fort McMurray.

Several media reports confirm a two-year-old toddler died after he was inadvertently exposed to phosphide gas that was released from pesticide pellets meant to kill bed bugs.

His death was announced at Thurday's funeral for his eight-month-old sister, who died in hospital Monday from the same poisoning incident, reports Global News.

[stroguy]

Oh this horrible fascination with prescription drugs. How many have to die before we fix this slaughter in our country? We are out of control allowing our kids to play with loaded drug bottles. When will we hold the drug makers accountable for these murders?

Foundation for a drug free world: Prescription drug abuse causes the largest percentage of deaths from drug overdosing. Of the 22,400 drug overdose deaths in the US in 2005, opioid painkillers were the most commonly found drug, accounting for 38.2% of these deaths.

In 2005, 4.4 million teenagers (aged 12 to 17) in the US admitted to taking prescription painkillers, and 2.3 million took a prescription stimulant such as Ritalin. 2.2 million abused over-the-counter drugs such as cough syrup. The average age for first-time users is now 13 to 14.

[bigbird]

It would be pretty difficult to ban water sports activities and prescription meds, which both have a positive purpose for society.

Handguns? Positive purpose? I don't think so.

All the US has to do is make them restricted weapons that are difficult to procure without proper training and have a long cool down period before acquisition. In Canada one can legally own a handgun, but it involves having to join a gun club, pass practical and written tests, and go through a very complete background check.
And it cannot be carried on the person without a temporary permit to transport. So it must be locked up in your home, or locked up at the gun club.

You want personal protection on the go? Then just trot down to any sporting goods store and buy some bear spray. At least it won't kill anyone accidentally.

[cosborn]

"WE".......need to be more responsible and to ensure our kids are as safe as possible, if this means getting rid of guns, then do it.

In Au, guns of any description have been banned for years unless you have a valid reason Licensed hunter, law enforcement) hand guns are almost impossible to get hold of.......unless you are a criminal of course. These laws have reduced gun crime here to almost nil but we will never stamp it out entirely even though the punishment for having an illegal firearm or parts or ammo is jail.

We got sick of our children drowning in backyard pools so all pools now must have a childproof fence around it, this has reduced but not eliminated drownings due to people leaving pool gates open or country children drowning in dams or creeks but it certainly helps.

Dangerous chemicals including the garden variety are to be kept in locked containers, this also helps but has not prevented deaths due to curious kids or chemicals such a Crystal meth which is starting to be a big concern here.

Every country is different, no one is right and no one is wrong but we must all take responsibility.

Just my bit........

Chris :039:

[stroguy]

It would be pretty difficult to ban water sports activities and prescription meds, which both have a positive purpose for society.

Handguns? Positive purpose? I don't think so.

No positive purpose, really? none....whatsoever? OK.

What if I told you I get just as much fun and freedom and satisfaction from going to the range as I do from water skiing?

We don't have to ban watersports, just personal swimming pools and have mandatory swimming training and life vests supplied to all citizens and no swimming without lifeguards.

Handguns have no positive purpose? Are you sure?

If I go for stroll down to the park and I hear a 300# thug with a knife is raping your daughter would you prefer me to have a phone and standby, a stick or my handgun?

[jkelley]

[QUOTE=bigbird;72218]It would be pretty difficult to ban water sports activities and prescription meds, which both have a positive purpose for society.

Handguns? Positive purpose? I don't think so. /QUOTE]

No positive purpose, really? none....whatsoever? OK.

What if I told you I get just as much fun and freedom and satisfaction from going to the range as I do from water skiing?

We don't have to ban watersports, just personal swimming pools and have mandatory swimming training and life vests supplied to all citizens and no swimming without lifeguards.

Handguns have no positive purpose? Are you sure?

If I go for stroll down to the park and I hear a 300# thug with a knife is raping your daughter would you prefer me to have a phone and standby, a stick or my handgun?


Dude, you are wasting your time. You cant convince some they are wrong. and you cant make sense out of a tragedy.

I am a shooter like a lot of folks on here, but some are clearly not. I do believe in the right to own a firearm, but I also believe there is a great responsibility that comes along with it. For a child to die because some asswhipe does not have the common sense to properly store and secure a weapon is totally unacceptable and he should be charged. Further there are a great many that should not have guns either, Just not enough grey matter between their ears. But they do. I enjoy my guns, and believe no one has the correct answers for all situations.

[racer]

The point is:

There is great responsibilty required in gun ownership.

There is great responsibilty required in pool ownership.

There is great responsibilty required in prescription drug ownership.

There is great responsibilty required in property ownership.

There is great responsibilty required in auto ownership.

There is great responsibilty required in potentially dangerous pet ownership.

There is great responsibilty required in parenting.

There is great responsibilty required in protecting our loved ones and property from those who would harm us.


Sometimes things go awry and accidents happen. We all need to be responsible for supervising our children, securing our dangerous items and keeping our loved ones safe.

[hoglaw]

In other news...more than 325 million guns in America did not kill anyone yesterday.

[stroguy]

Exactly right jk. My point is again back at the OP that has this mentality that ALL GUN BAD JANE. I will not sit by as naive people try to instill guilt on me. Again I go back and ask why will nobody take claim for the huge drop in violent crimes in the US. Not a dem, a repub, not a prez, not the NRA............nobody. Gun ownership is at an all time high, violent crime is down. I will not be the fool that equate the two. I am a full time believer that it is 99.9% cultural. Australia has massive restrictions on gun ownership, has that solved their violent crime rate? NO.

And the biggest what if of all time is....if the U.S. were to ban handguns and the manufacture of same that all handguns would go away? You would be fool to say yes. Brazil......large maker of handguns. Austria......large maker of handguns. Italy......large maker of handguns. Russia...same. Would we be idiots to think the U.S. could keep those guns out?

[Bill1584]

[QUOTE=bigbird;72218]It would be pretty difficult to ban water sports activities and prescription meds, which both have a positive purpose for society.

Handguns? Positive purpose? I don't think so. /QUOTE]

No positive purpose, really? none....whatsoever? OK.

What if I told you I get just as much fun and freedom and satisfaction from going to the range as I do from water skiing?

We don't have to ban watersports, just personal swimming pools and have mandatory swimming training and life vests supplied to all citizens and no swimming without lifeguards.

Handguns have no positive purpose? Are you sure?

If I go for stroll down to the park and I hear a 300# thug with a knife is raping your daughter would you prefer me to have a phone and standby, a stick or my handgun?

Stroguy,

You won't convince him, so there is no use in trying. His background, and present, and future, are much different than yours and mine. You and I both live in Spring, so we've likely been at SGA a time or two at the same time. I can tell you that you make good points, but we have simply grown up differently with different expectations. No way you'd get this fellow into SGA or out onto a 1000 yd firing line at Bayou Rifles. He won't read anything from this forum and have an epiphany. Quite the opposite, more likey. (I am married to a woman from Illinois who grew up with a fear of firearms. After 15 years, she is comfortable with a handgun, and shoots trap very respectably.) Keep trying though, I enjoy reading all this stuff and you are well spoken.

By the way, my wife was strolling around our neighborhood in February and found herself looking down the barrel of an XD. The two thugs wanted her headphones and her phone. The deputy dispatched to investigate told her that there was not much they could do to help, so I called some folks I knew at Harris County. The one with the pistol wore a pink hoodie. Pink. He was caught within a couple of hours, and she made a positive id. The gun, two it turned out, as an Airsoft pistol. It looked real. They told her not to think about that since next time it could be the real deal. We are in the process now of getting her proficiency up, a pistol selected, and her CHL. What a gal. This kind of thing is why I feel the need to stack the deck a bit. And do.

Good shooting,

Bill Strange

[Bill1584]

The point is:

There is great responsibilty required in gun ownership.

There is great responsibilty required in pool ownership.

There is great responsibilty required in prescription drug ownership.

There is great responsibilty required in property ownership.

There is great responsibilty required in auto ownership.

There is great responsibilty required in potentially dangerous pet ownership.

There is great responsibilty required in parenting.

There is great responsibilty required in protecting our loved ones and property from those who would harm us.


Sometimes things go awry and accidents happen. We all need to be responsible for supervising our children, securing our dangerous items and keeping our loved ones safe.

Yes sir. Exactly right. Sober, responsible ownership and management. Really, this is part of the enjoyment in my opinion. Well said.

[stroguy]

Thanks Bill. I am in no way trying to change anyone, then I become as bad as the uninformed that use false narratives. It's just as easy for me to walk next door and slaughter my neighbor with my machete than my revolver. If I have no respect for a fellow citizen or a mental instability then the weapon matters not. Taking away guns doesn't change my misuse of drugs, my proclivity to crime or just my desire to hurt someone. If it's in there, it's in there.

I shoot at SGA every Thursday evening in a class. I try to go to ranges at dead times (no pun intended) because there are some careless gun owners and some of them show up at the range. I applaud them for training but they can be a bit unnerving. Shooting at the Spring Gander Mountain is a very safe range. Never made it to Bayou Rifles. My class instructor is a long range shooting nut and builds high performance rifles as his business.

Nice to meet you Bill.

[salane972]

And what the H### does all of this have to do with the F6?

[hoglaw]

And what the H### does all of this have to do with the F6?

It's in the Off-topic forum, and it's off-topic.

[valkmc]

[QUOTE=stroguy;72224]


Dude, you are wasting your time. You cant convince some they are wrong. and you cant make sense out of a tragedy.

I am a shooter like a lot of folks on here, but some are clearly not. I do believe in the right to own a firearm, but I also believe there is a great responsibility that comes along with it. For a child to die because some asswhipe does not have the common sense to properly store and secure a weapon is totally unacceptable and he should be charged. Further there are a great many that should not have guns either, Just not enough grey matter between their ears. But they do. I enjoy my guns, and believe no one has the correct answers for all situations.

Accidents happen in almost all aspects of life. Four people have died on motorcycles in our area in the last few weeks. I like having my gun but I believe guns should be kept out of the hands of some. If you have children or grandchildren in the house you have to have some smarts and not everyone does. With that being said there will always still be mistakes if it can happen to a trained LEO it can happen to any one.http://www.ocala.com/article/20150413/ARTICLES/150419886/1001/NEWS01?Title=Hundreds-bid-farewell-to-OPD-officer-killed-in-training-accident

[srt8-in-largo]

These stories don't motivate me to crusade against the freedoms we enjoy, but instead, let's be reminded to instill RESPECT of firearms in our children and to keep them out of reach of those too young to understand.

For the responsible gun owners who are affected by such tragedies, my condolences.

For the low-IQ crowd who can't own responsibly, thank you for your Darwinian contribution. Your award is in the mail.

[shooter]

I think we should kill the guy that owned that gun. Stupid sob should be lined up and shot. Then we should ban motorcycles and automobiles. Thousands of people are killed annually by these killing machines. Some of the people on this forum should have to go back to riding a horse to work. Fools. It wasn't the guns fault. Who left a loaded gun out around these kids? Where were the parents? Kid sticks a metal toy in a light socket. You want to ban electric? That s was probably the same parents that let their kids run around the restaurant screaming while I'm trying to eat. Put the blame where it belongs. Bird you have a one track mind. Its like a broken record. Totally predictable and totally wrong.

[shooter]

And what the H### does all of this have to do with the F6?

11 posts and you're an expert. OTE=Off Topic Experiment. F6B is the topic of the forum. We are Off The Topic. Totally legal.

[srt8-in-largo]

We're so off topic that we're ON topic :icon_biggrin:

To clarify my post above, I'm referring to the parents of the child in this story as low-IQ, not anyone here.

[shooter]

There are a few of them here too George.

[Phantom]

Limoles ...

How many kill themselves and OTHERS in accidents due to excessive speeding? How about those that are intoxicated or distracted by texting or talking on a cell phone? Let's Eliminate ALL vehicles, cell phones and ALL alcoholic beverages ...... simply because a FEW were IRRESPONSIBLE and didn't give a crap about others. How about placing a speed limit of 20mph so that the risk of death in a accident is reduced to a minimum .....

I was nearly killed 4 years ago by a lady driving a Chevy TAHOE that was texting as she ran a red light and hit me on my drivers door while she was traveling at 55mph, she got off simply with a ticket, yet to this day, I still suffer from that accident. Her vehicle was just as deadly as a LOADED gun, I was lucky to have survived!

I know all my suggestions are ridiculous and just short of stupid ... kind of like the comments on banning firearms from the 99.99% that are responsible owners.


Go back to WWII, if the Europeans had guns, Hitler would've not succeeded like he did (specifically in your home country of Poland) It was the GUN Toting Americans and their allies that saved your Asses. The majority of the French still to this day hate us Americans for saving their asses .... a bunch of ungrateful pieces of shit. MANY GUN Toting American soldiers died to liberate your fellow men .... STOP trying to shove down our throats the same beliefs that made Hitler so successful and caused your country to CRUMBLE under German GUN Carrying soldiers. You must learn from History.

Now, why don't you buy a home in the middle of Trenton or Camden or even Newark NJ. Place a sign on your front door or even on your cars that you DO NOT own a gun .... let's see how many times your house is burglarized and your life placed in danger .... I'll even start the home search for you, what is your budget ? Homes in these neighborhoods are VERY AFFORDABLE --- you ever wonder why? Must be because no one carries a gun ... yeah right, the criminals do :crackup:

Sorry for my RANT, but I'm entitled to my opinion based on my experiences. All the "Let's eliminate GUNS" fanatics probably have never lived in a high crime area, never had their lives placed on the line by a gun toting criminal or experienced hardships caused by crime.

[srt8-in-largo]

Tony, that accident must be the source of the riding pain you've mentioned on longer rides?

Hitler had quite the military machine up and running... sometimes I wonder if even the US could have withstood a surprise attack if Hitler was next door to us. Good thing he wasn't.

Sometimes I get upset at the French snootiness too, but all I have to do is think about their support in our own Revolution. France allied herself with us, declared war on England, sent us troops, arms, etc, and was a major factor in the USA gaining its' own independence... we also owe them a debt of gratitude.



There are a few of them here too George.

It's all good Shooter; I enjoy the debate and can respect a differing point of view. Doesn't mean I have to agree :icon_biggrin:

[Phantom]

Sometimes I get upset at the French snootiness too, but all I have to do is think about their support in our own Revolution. France allied herself with us, declared war on England, sent us troops, arms, etc, and was a major factor in the USA gaining its' own independence... we also owe them a debt of gratitude.


George, I have expressed the same sentiments and gratitude for the PAST French Generations as you have above. In my opinion the French of the mid 1900's to current are not cut from the same thread as their BRAVE ancestors that had the same VIGOR for Freedom as we did and we Americans CONTINUE to have. I Travel quite a bit and believe me, the French attitudes towards us Americans sucks royally, it is the OLDER French population that is grateful for the sacrifices that our men made during WWII.

If the French were grateful for the thousands of Americans that died and are still buried in Northern France ... Then they would NOT be charging us to lease the grounds where our brave men are buried in Normandy. Yes, you read that correctly, the French Government requires that we pay them to have our fallen soldiers buried on their land, that would have otherwise be speaking German today if it wasn't for the American blood that was shed.

In 1985 (30 years ago --- wow how time flies) my brother and I were severely attacked by 3 French thugs on dope at 3:00am as we slept outside of the main Train station in Paris awaiting the 7:00am train to Madrid. It was when my brother and I started speaking English between ourselves that the shit hit the fan. When your life flashes in front of your eyes and your adrenaline kicks in for the first time, there are no rules in SURVIVAL. If I had stashed a gun in my back pack, there would have been a couple of casualties. It was ugly to say the least, Thankfully my Brother and I were the only ones that were able to hobble away from the scene, the 3 french thugs unfortunately ended up with life long scars to their faces, torn ear and a broken collar bone. The aluminum light pole and steel grated fence jumped on top of them and did the damage. That's my story and I'm sticking with that. I was fortunate to walk away with stretched ligaments on my right ankle.

I have Family still to this day in 3 European countries, France being one of them. I visit every 2 years to see my uncles and cousins and remind myself why I love my country .... the good ole USA. I will be returning to Europe in 2016 for possibly a 2 week motorcycle adventure. Ship the Goldwing with Lufthansa one day before I depart and when I arrive it is waiting for me at the package terminal. Then return back to Frankfort one day early and when I return to Atlanta I just pick it up and ride home. It's not set in concrete but in the planning stages.

My comments are based on my actual experiences, yours may vary.:cheers: I am proud of my European heritage, it's just that my eyes are open to reality. History has a tendency to repeat itself .

[bigbird]

All the "Let's eliminate GUNS" fanatics probably have never lived in a high crime area, never had their lives placed on the line by a gun toting criminal or experienced hardships caused by crime.


What came first, the chicken or the egg? Do guns cause crime or does crime manifest gun ownership?
The US baby's long ago been thrown out. Now you're stuck with the bathwater.

[srt8-in-largo]

George, I have expressed the same sentiments and gratitude for the PAST French Generations as you have above. In my opinion the French of the mid 1900's to current are not cut from the same thread as their BRAVE ancestors that had the same VIGOR for Freedom as we did and we Americans CONTINUE to have. I Travel quite a bit and believe me, the French attitudes towards us Americans sucks royally, it is the OLDER French population that is grateful for the sacrifices that our men made during WWII.

If the French were grateful for the thousands of Americans that died and are still buried in Northern France ... Then they would NOT be charging us to lease the grounds where our brave men are buried in Normandy. Yes, you read that correctly, the French Government requires that we pay them to have our fallen soldiers buried on their land, that would have otherwise be speaking German today if it wasn't for the American blood that was shed.

In 1985 (30 years ago --- wow how time flies) my brother and I were severely attacked by 3 French thugs on dope at 3:00am as we slept outside of the main Train station in Paris awaiting the 7:00am train to Madrid. It was when my brother and I started speaking English between ourselves that the shit hit the fan. When your life flashes in front of your eyes and your adrenaline kicks in for the first time, there are no rules in SURVIVAL. If I had stashed a gun in my back pack, there would have been a couple of casualties. It was ugly to say the least, Thankfully my Brother and I were the only ones that were able to hobble away from the scene, the 3 french thugs unfortunately ended up with life long scars to their faces, torn ear and a broken collar bone. The aluminum light pole and steel grated fence jumped on top of them and did the damage. That's my story and I'm sticking with that. I was fortunate to walk away with stretched ligaments on my right ankle.

I have Family still to this day in 3 European countries, France being one of them. I visit every 2 years to see my uncles and cousins and remind myself why I love my country .... the good ole USA. I will be returning to Europe in 2016 for possibly a 2 week motorcycle adventure. Ship the Goldwing with Lufthansa one day before I depart and when I arrive it is waiting for me at the package terminal. Then return back to Frankfort one day early and when I return to Atlanta I just pick it up and ride home. It's not set in concrete but in the planning stages.

My comments are based on my actual experiences, yours may vary.:cheers: I am proud of my European heritage, it's just that my eyes are open to reality. History has a tendency to repeat itself .

Ah I get it now... very interesting. I Agree.

And MAN! What a motorcycle journey that will be! I can't wait to see the videos :icon_biggrin:

[Phantom]

What came first, the chicken or the egg? Do guns cause crime or does crime manifest gun ownership?
The US baby's long ago been thrown out. Now you're stuck with the bathwater.


What weapons did the Romans use? Knives, swords and spears? Did our Indian ancestors have Bow and Arrow "safes" back in the old days?

Knives have been around for many years, and many have died from stabbings or just watch the ISIS videos where beheadings are the norm with knives being the culprit ... it's the knifes fault. Let's ban ALL knifes from the Middle East and all of the beheadings will stop. Sounds just as absurd doesn't it? Think about it, there is no difference.

It comes down to the individual and their ability to process a situation rapidly. Applying restraint is key.

The parents of the children that left the gun in a area where the children could access it should be held accountable.

[srt8-in-largo]

What came first, the chicken or the egg? Do guns cause crime or does crime manifest gun ownership?
The US baby's long ago been thrown out. Now you're stuck with the bathwater.

There's something to that comment, Bird.

I won't ask if you've ever been in a dangerous area, I'll listen if you share, but this is not something that can be imagined in a classroom or from the comfort of a suburban sofa. Try stopping for gas in East St. Louis after midnight. Step out of the subway at the north end of Central Park in NYC, again, after midnight.

Idk about the chicken or the egg but there are some big bad dudes out there, bred for nothing but trouble, and could give a rat's ass about how nice you are... a sign of weakness in their eyes.

Finally, the only people who consider the situation as being "stuck with the bathwater" are the anti-gunners who believe the skies will open and the seas will part once guns are banned. That's not a concept that works in America. Heck, we're so broken politically that we can't keep 15 million Mexicans from crossing the border. You think we can keep guns out?

[Limoles]

Limoles ...

How many kill themselves and OTHERS in accidents due to excessive speeding? How about those that are intoxicated or distracted by texting or talking on a cell phone? Let's Eliminate ALL vehicles, cell phones and ALL alcoholic beverages ...... simply because a FEW were IRRESPONSIBLE and didn't give a crap about others. How about placing a speed limit of 20mph so that the risk of death in a accident is reduced to a minimum .....

I was nearly killed 4 years ago by a lady driving a Chevy TAHOE that was texting as she ran a red light and hit me on my drivers door while she was traveling at 55mph, she got off simply with a ticket, yet to this day, I still suffer from that accident. Her vehicle was just as deadly as a LOADED gun, I was lucky to have survived!

I know all my suggestions are ridiculous and just short of stupid ... kind of like your comments on banning firearms from the 99.99% that are responsible owners.


Go back to WWII, if the Europeans had guns, Hitler would've not succeeded like he did (specifically in your home country of Poland) It was the GUN Toting Americans and their allies that saved your Asses. The majority of the French still to this day hate us Americans for saving their asses .... a bunch of ungrateful pieces of shit. MANY GUN Toting American soldiers died to liberate your fellow men .... STOP trying to shove down our throats the same beliefs that made Hitler so successful and caused your country to CRUMBLE under German GUN Carrying soldiers. You must learn from History.

Now, why don't you buy a home in the middle of Trenton or Camden or even Newark NJ. Place a sign on your front door or even on your cars that you DO NOT own a gun .... let's see how many times your house is burglarized and your life placed in danger .... I'll even start the home search for you, what is your budget ? Homes in these neighborhoods are VERY AFFORDABLE --- you ever wonder why? Must be because no one carries a gun ... yeah right :crackup:

Sorry for my RANT, but I'm entitled to my opinion based on my experiences. All the "Let's eliminate GUNS" fanatics probably have never lived in a high crime area, never had their lives placed on the line by a gun toting criminal or experienced hardships caused by crime.

Tony ,

With all respect to your authority , I have to DISAGREE with your analysis .

History is my strong point , especially covering WWII . Hitler's raise to the power happened under international watch , where even American Corporations were financing German supplies of weaponry , backed by American and Vatican Banking System . Americans stayed away from the war , until their national security has been compromized , when German U-Boats got near New Jersey shores and Japanese disgrased unprepared for fight Yankee post in Pearl Harbor . Eventually , joined forces , ( led by British Alliances ) in 1944 operation "Overlord" dismantled German fury in legendary D-Day's Normandy shores . Not even ONE AMERICAN SOLDIER put the foot into the Polish territory , so are no chances to give you a credit for its deliberation . Yes - 156 000 American and Canadian troops landed in France to blow the final assault , but again - fight was also joined by armies of Australia , Belgium , Czechoslovakia , France , Greece , Netherland , New Zealand , Norway and Poland , who contributed to the final victory . After winning the battle for Stalingrad , Russian avalanche of desperate Bolsheviks moved West and closed the ring from Eastern Site , entering to the city of Berlin . Again , not even one American fought in that battle .The final massacre of civilian people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki ended the war . That's the history facts , which might not match handbooks , which were given to you after all . French people are snobs and do not hate Americans for "saving their asses" , but for cultural differences . There are to many to count and I'll not to go further from that .

And now , your question "WHY" I do not live in ghettos of Trenton , Camden or even Newark , the answer is simple : I DO NOT NEED TO . But , if it would be necessary , I could find the methods of peaceful coexistence . Did anybody made deeper analysis of those places existence anyway ? Did you forget already , that American history is responsible for slavery , which established irreversible differences in societies and their hierarhies ? Despite present political trends to integrate multicultural groups of people coming from different cultures and believes , it simply DOESN'T WORK ! Still hate exist on both sites of the alley .

Crime is associated with anger and guns in hands of unemployed , unskilled and uneducated groups are the biggest threat to societal advancement . This is also problem caused by politicians , who in short-sited programs created most ridiculous effect , labeled "no child left behind" . Everything to just be elected . What would you expect from drop out student , who is unable to join labor forces , necessary to build progressive life ? Problem is complicated and neither you , me or someone from our Forum is able to solve it . But is also good to know it .

My strong refusal of firearm possession is logic only for me . You will not find me to criticize those , who have one , but I'm sure will not help anyone to use it in "critical moment" either . Look around and read , how the crime is evolved and what is done to end it ( or reduce it ) ? Having gun doesn't provide any guaranties to save life . Please count the number of the people , who used it in "self defense" , or in "protection" who were threatened and compare to these numbers , which are representing actual statistics , placing USA in worlds leadership in murders . It is shameful record .

Since we have Police , National Guards and Army , Government should be responsible for our safety and it could be good enough already , if properly executed . But , if you or others will explain , why so called American Interest is using our Army to protect and secure Corporation's businesses around the world , it will open another discussion , leading us to reflections , why America lost numerous wars in Vietnam , Central America , Iraq , Afghanistan and why 9/11 happened ? Don't you think , there are consequences of foreign policies , provoking others to answer with terrorism ? Al-Qaida , ISIS , which are impossible to curb causing serious problems to the entire world and we are witnessing beginning of civilization clashes already .

Don't get me wrong , but as I stated in other thread - as much I hate guns , when USA , or American people will ever be in immediate danger of foreign invasion IN OUR TERRITORY , I'll fight for properly understood freedom and its integrity .

Meanwhile , I believe that child's death is NOT ONLY caused by irresponsible parents , but the easy access to the gun , which in luck of its presence , wouldn't initiate our debate .

[smokinjoe187]

Tony ,

With all respect to your authority , I have to DISAGREE with your analysis .

History is my strong point , especially covering WWII . Hitler's raise to the power happened under international watch , where even American Corporations were financing German supplies of weaponry , backed by American and Vatican Banking System . Americans stayed away from the war , until their national security has been compromized , when German U-Boats got near New Jersey shores and Japanese disgrased unprepared for fight Yankee post in Pearl Harbor . Eventually , joined forces , ( led by British Alliances ) in 1944 operation "Overlord" dismantled German fury in legendary D-Day's Normandy shores . Not even ONE AMERICAN SOLDIER put the foot into the Polish territory , so are no chances to give you a credit for its deliberation . Yes - 156 000 American and Canadian troops landed in France to blow the final assault , but again - fight was also joined by armies of Australia , Belgium , Czechoslovakia , France , Greece , Netherland , New Zealand , Norway and Poland , who contributed to the final victory . After winning the battle for Stalingrad , Russian avalanche of desperate Bolsheviks moved West and closed the ring from Eastern Site , entering to the city of Berlin . Again , not even one American fought in that battle .The final massacre of civilian people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki ended the war . That's the history facts , which might not match handbooks , which were given to you after all . French people are snobs and do not hate Americans for "saving their asses" , but for cultural differences . There are to many to count and I'll not to go further from that .

And now , your question "WHY" I do not live in ghettos of Trenton , Camden or even Newark , the answer is simple : I DO NOT NEED TO . But , if it would be necessary , I could find the methods of peaceful coexistence . Did anybody made deeper analysis of those places existence anyway ? Did you forget already , that American history is responsible for slavery , which established irreversible differences in societies and their hierarhies ? Despite present political trends to integrate multicultural groups of people coming from different cultures and believes , it simply DOESN'T WORK ! Still hate exist on both sites of the alley .

Crime is associated with anger and guns in hands of unemployed , unskilled and uneducated groups are the biggest threat to societal advancement . This is also problem caused by politicians , who in short-sited programs created most ridiculous effect , labeled "no child left behind" . Everything to just be elected . What would you expect from drop out student , who is unable to join labor forces , necessary to build progressive life ? Problem is complicated and neither you , me or someone from our Forum is able to solve it . But is also good to know it .

My strong refusal of firearm possession is logic only for me . You will not find me to criticize those , who have one , but I'm sure will not help anyone to use it in "critical moment" either . Look around and read , how the crime is evolved and what is done to end it ( or reduce it ) ? Having gun doesn't provide any guaranties to save life . Please count the number of the people , who used it in "self defense" , or in "protection" who were threatened and compare to these numbers , which are representing actual statistics , placing USA in worlds leadership in murders . It is shameful record .

Since we have Police , National Guards and Army , Government should be responsible for our safety and it could be good enough already , if properly executed . But , if you or others will explain , why so called American Interest is using our Army to protect and secure Corporation's businesses around the world , it will open another discussion , leading us to reflections , why America lost numerous wars in Vietnam , Central America , Iraq , Afghanistan and why 9/11 happened ? Don't you think , there are consequences of foreign policies , provoking others to answer with terrorism ? Al-Qaida , ISIS , which are impossible to curb causing serious problems to the entire world and we are witnessing beginning of civilization clashes already .

Don't get me wrong , but as I stated in other thread - as much I hate guns , when USA , or American people will ever be in immediate danger of foreign invasion IN OUR TERRITORY , I'll fight for properly understood freedom and its integrity .

Meanwhile , I believe that child's death is NOT ONLY caused by irresponsible parents , but the easy access to the gun , which in luck of its presence , wouldn't initiate our debate .

blah blah blah....jeez,I get you have a story for everything...Phantom is right....you don't live here give it a rest

[stroguy]

Since we have Police , National Guards and Army , Government should be responsible for our safety and it could be good enough already , if properly executed.

Well there you go, the sheep has spoken. That's alright, history is my strong point as well and history has proven the sheep that relys on government casts all freedoms away to a supreme leader. Your history is skewed sir.

[GNW]

I like guns !
I am responsible in my handling of them. In my home I teach gun handling/training and to be responsible. I get that from my Dad who taught me.
I love going to a turkey shoot (Annie Oakley style). So much fun with responsible gun loving shooters.
I live next to a golf course. Man, I hope those golfers are responsible. I am always worried (out walking) that I might just get hit in the head with a ricochet golf ball. Scary deal for this cowboy that doesn't like golfing (but here again, I have never tried it). Maybe, I need to take another look at golfing?

[bigbird]

blah blah blah....jeez,I get you have a story for everything...Phantom is right....you don't live here give it a rest

Limoles lives in a hotbed of urban mayhem; New JoyZee!
I would think he's likely seen every type of potentially life threatening violence.

BTW, I like guns too. I have owned rifles and gone hunting.
But handguns being owned and carried around by anyone scares the $hit out of me.

[hoglaw]

Limoles lives in a hotbed of urban mayhem; New JoyZee!
I would think he's likely seen every type of potentially life threatening violence.

BTW, I like guns too. I have owned rifles and gone hunting.
But handguns being owned and carried around by anyone scares the $hit out of me.

Better stay out of Florida. We've surpassed one million concealed carry licenses...the result? Very few misuses and violent crime is down.

[shooter]

Yeah don't come to Missouri either. Bunch of crazies here. On a good day we like to get a few 'brush shots' in.

[valkmc]

Better stay out of Florida. We've surpassed one million concealed carry licenses...the result? Very few misuses and violent crime is down.

Been to Orlando lately? I would not walk around after dark there with out... Daily shootings. I certainly would not be a Law Enforcement Officer there. Starting to resemble Chicago.

[bigbird]

I've been to Orlando, Missouri, as well as urban Chicago, Dallas, and Tampa.
Never had or saw a problem.
But I also don't roam the decrepit back alleys or low life areas.
Maybe you guys do?

[hoglaw]

Been to Orlando lately? I would not walk around after dark there with out... Daily shootings. I certainly would not be a Law Enforcement Officer there. Starting to resemble Chicago.

Yes, I've been to Orlando almost daily for more than 30 years. If you're frequenting the drug dens of CrimeHills you probably aren't too safe. For the most part Orlando is very safe. I grew up in Chicago and was a big city cop in California so I think I know the difference.

[GNW]

I've been to Orlando, Missouri, as well as urban Chicago, Dallas, and Tampa.
Never had or saw a problem.
But I also don't roam the decrepit back alleys or low life areas.
Maybe you guys do?

I like to roam some of the low life areas.
I even like to watch "Trailer Park Boys" filmed in Nova Scotia, Canada. It's funny as hell !! But, that's just me.
Get it on Netflix. Crazy business !!

[bigbird]

I even like to watch "Trailer Park Boys" filmed in Nova Scotia, Canada. It's funny as hell !! But, that's just me.
Get it on Netflix. Crazy business !!

I've watched every one of their episodes.
They've got a new movie out called "Swear Net". Have you downloaded it? They play themselves in real life. Nothing to do with TPB. Hilarious.

[racer]

What came first, the chicken or the egg? Do guns cause crime or does crime manifest gun ownership?


uh... I'm pretty sure that people killed other people thousands of years before guns were invented.

So to answer your question... crime came first. Crime will exist without the presence of guns. Always has. Always will.

The only question is... do you want to protect you and yours or dial 911 and hope for the best?

I hope your strategy works for you. There are a lot of dead victims that 911 didn't work out for. The police showed up in time to take a report, some pictures and lay out chalk outlines.

[GNW]

I've watched every one of their episodes.
They've got a new movie out called "Swear Net". Have you downloaded it? They play themselves in real life. Nothing to do with TPB. Hilarious.

I will have to check that out !
Wife and I are up to #25 with 50 more to go right now.
Don't want it to end. Bubbles is my man !!

[bigbird]

uh... I'm pretty sure that people killed other people thousands of years before guns were invented.

So to answer your question... crime came first. Crime will exist without the presence of guns. Always has. Always will.

You answered the question.
Crime manifests the proliferation of handguns through fear-mongering.

Running out and buying handguns for fear of who's about to jack your car at the next traffic light, or who's lurking in the bushes behind your house at night waiting to break in, beat you, rape your wife and daughter, and then kill you will only add to more armed Americans. No wonder your police react with deadly hair-trigger (pun intended) response to any threat.

And you say you live in the greatest country in the world? Hmm, OK.
Canada may not be the greatest country in the world, but I don't fear for my life at every sunset or every time I go for a ride or walk.

[Limoles]

Limoles lives in a hotbed of urban mayhem; New JoyZee!
I would think he's likely seen every type of potentially life threatening violence.

BTW, I like guns too. I have owned rifles and gone hunting.
But handguns being owned and carried around by anyone scares the $hit out of me.


No Bird - During my past 30 years in here , I didn't see violent acts as much , as those who are acccustomed to it . But , having now a better picture of traditionally cherished mind set , ( which will never improve societal safety anyway ) , I might focus on voices providing a better solution protecting our children , which is hard to find among preachers talking to themselves . So , trying to convince anybody to think different is senseless . Let them be , what they want to be.

"It is difficult to free the dog from the chain he revere".
Voltaire

[racer]

Canada may not be the greatest country in the world, but I don't fear for my life at every sunset or every time I go for a ride or walk.


Cool. We are both happy.

I don't fear for my life at every sunset or every time I go for a ride or walk either, but then, I am a sheepdog. I hope your method of self defense serves you well, don't stray too far from the flock.

[Bill1584]

You answered the question.
Crime manifests the proliferation of handguns through fear-mongering.

Running out and buying handguns for fear of who's about to jack your car at the next traffic light, or who's lurking in the bushes behind your house at night waiting to break in, beat you, rape your wife and daughter, and then kill you will only add to more armed Americans. No wonder your police react with deadly hair-trigger (pun intended) response to any threat.

And you say you live in the greatest country in the world? Hmm, OK.
Canada may not be the greatest country in the world, but I don't fear for my life at every sunset or every time I go for a ride or walk.

So this guy is driving a little too fast down I-10 in far west Texas. An officer of the law pulls him over to inquire as to why he might be speeding. The guy hands the officer his license and concealed handgun permit (CHL), plus is insurance card. As is protocol, the cop asks whether this fellow is carrying, and if so what and where. The guy says he has a Glock 19 in a holster at 4 o'clock, Beretta Nano in his boot, two AR-15's and a Remington 870 tactical shotgun in his toolbox, and both his deer rifles behind the seat. The cop then asks what, exactly, the guy is so afraid of. Without hesitation, he responds: "Not a damned thing."

I have never purchased a weapon out of fear. I purchase weapons because the laws of my county, state, and country allow me to, and because I enjoy shooting them. I take full advantage of the laws of the state of Texas, and all that this entails. I take good care of each one, and all are strictly locked away so grandkids and burglars cannot get at them. The idea that we drive, ride, and walk around in fear looking to blast whatever jumps out from behind a bush is absurd and insulting. I think no less of people who do not agree with me on this. I think a lot less of people who are pricks about it. I think no less of people who don't like Texas or the USA. I think a lot less of people who are pricks about it. There are a lot of good places in this world to live, and I have enjoyed most all of them I have visited. The laws are different wherever I go, and so I respect them fully and sincerely. I travel to Mexico hunting when possible and I can say with certainty that all their laws are very strictly observed. We all have different backgrounds. We are all worthy of getting to know. If I were to visit Canada, for instance, I would learn in intimate detail of all laws, regulations and social customs affecting my stay, and I would observe them. Happily. The same applies to California, Nebraska, Montana, New Jersey, or anywhere else. And I'd make friends along the way, or make sure I tried.

[Hornblower]

:icon_ditto: Bill1584! Extremely well said! It's refreshing to read something so true, logical, and well thought out. At the root, this discussion is really about freedoms. We have lost some of our freedoms in recent years but we continue to struggle to keep the rest. Folks in many other countries have already lost most of their freedoms and seem resentful of the ones we have left. I get it. Like you, what I don't appreciate is those folks "running down" our freedoms as if they are something bad.

[Limoles]

:icon_ditto: Bill1584! Extremely well said! It's refreshing to read something so true, logical, and well thought out. At the root, this discussion is really about freedoms. We have lost some of our freedoms in recent years but we continue to struggle to keep the rest. Folks in many other countries have already lost most of their freedoms and seem resentful of the ones we have left. I get it. Like you, what I don't appreciate is those folks "running down" our freedoms as if they are something bad.

Nobody is "running down" your freedom , but in vigorously defending arguments , try to recognize few chapters of history , which gave you opportunities to enjoy it . Freedom has much larger meaning , than possession of the guns , which are not necessarily needed to be ... just free :

http://www.polishamericancenter.org/Kosciuszko.htm

http://whsjohnnygreen.org/news/2015/03/03/casimir-pulaski-a-underappreciated-defender-of-american-freedom/

http://gadabyte.com/ww-ii/poland.html

[bigbird]

I hope your method of self defense serves you well, don't stray too far from the flock.

No self defence needed. I live in Canada. The land of the meek and the home of the passive.

[hiflyer]

No self defence needed. I live in Canada. The land of the meek and the home of the passive.

Give it up bird, there are nuts in every country. Is this passive?

www.liveleak.com/view?i=dc1_1428340740

[bigbird]

Give it up bird


I gave it up long ago.

I also should have bought stock in two American icons:, Apple and Smith & Wesson, two famous companies that forever changed the way Americans think and act.

[srt8-in-largo]

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-vBJo3gbiRjs/UkXf91XspsI/AAAAAAAABQI/KNuBqyyxtmA/s800/BSMETER.gif

Personally I think that 95% of the worlds population is off-base in some of their religious beliefs. I don't fool myself in thinking I can convince them otherwise... but if I did try, and failed, I certainly wouldn't resort to insults and demeaning comments. Why throw away your self-respect and dignity... for nothing.

[GNW]

I gave it up long ago.

I also should have bought stock in two American icons:, Apple and Smith & Wesson, two famous companies that forever changed the way Americans think and act.

Bird, I am surprised you have such indignation for the United States of America !

[taxfree4]

Just a comment, laws don't give you freedoms or liberty, those are natural, God given things that laws restrict. It is your right to protect you and your family with a rifle, pistol or whatever weapon you chose, however, obviously due to the fact that there are evil, twisted people in the world that do use those weapons for horrendous things, the laws need to be there, as restrictions on those idiots, not freedoms for the good people.

[taxfree4]

Stop picking on Bird the man is obviously under tremendous stress due to the fact Canada is beholden to these big-eared, murderous, incestuous pedophiles.

[bigbird]

Bird, I am surprised you have such indignation for the United States of America !


You guys have a culture and society very different from the rest of the world.
You keep telling me that the USA is the greatest country in the world.
Then you tell me that you must carry guns for two reasons:
because you can and because you have the need to protect yourself from the omnipresent threat of criminal attack.

This sounds oxymoronic to me.

[taxfree4]

Not that we don't have our own big-eared, murderous, incestuous pedophiles.

[shooter]

I can't believe you went there.

[Bill1584]

You guys have a culture and society very different from the rest of the world.
You keep telling me that the USA is the greatest country in the world.
Then you tell me that you must carry guns for two reasons:
because you can and because you have the need to protect yourself from the omnipresent threat of criminal attack.

This sounds oxymoronic to me.

From the top.

Most countries have cultures and societies different from the rest of the world. Who, for instance, is exactly like Canada?

No one has told you that the USA is the greatest country in the world. Each of us has a more or less unspoken obligation to believe that our home town is best, that our mom is the best, and so on. Don't you? Simple nationalism. Do you not believe that Canada is the finest place in the world? If you don't, you ought to.

Speaking for myself, if I own or carry a gun, it is because the law here allows me to. If your laws changed, do you think you might be surprised at how many Canadians elected to do so? I think you might.

If I thought there was an 'omnipresent' threat I would never leave my house, armed or otherwise. You carry spare tires in your 4-wheeled vehicles not because you believe you will have a flat every time you drive, but for the unlikely event that you do. Is there any way you can comprehend the difference there?

As you have no chance of effecting a change here, I fail to see purpose in the obvious resentment.

[bigbird]

Do you not believe that Canada is the finest place in the world? If you don't, you ought to.


No, Canada is not the finest place in the world to me. I'm not blinded by nationalism.
I think Australia would be the best place in the world to live, for a variety of reasons.

[Bill1584]

No, Canada is not the finest place in the world to me. I'm not blinded by nationalism.
I think Australia would be the best place in the world to live, for a variety of reasons.

Well, Canada has some of the most beautiful wilderness to be found, great hunting, and many great people. Very independent sorts, and a pleasure to visit with. I don't know much more than that.
I cannot think of a reason to save my life why Australia would not be a wonderful place to live, raise families and retire. I would love to actually drive/ride from east to west someday. Adventure bike from Sydney to Perth? Just a dream.

[bigbird]

Well, Canada has some of the most beautiful wilderness to be found, great hunting, and many great people. Very independent sorts, and a pleasure to visit with. I don't know much more than that.


Physically, Canada is a beautiful yet demanding country.

My discontent with Canada is economic and political.
So much investment here is foreign (read US), that your gov't influences our national decision making as if we were the 51st state.

You want and need and take our natural resources. Free trade is a joke. Shame on us for signing it, but you held our auto industry as a ransom. Then you pulled out of that commitment anyway.

If I wanted to live in the US, I would.
I don't hate the US and by far the majority of Canadians do not hate the US. But remember, hate is a very strong word.

My feeling is that until world peace is achieved, likely not in my in my children's and maybe grandchildren's lifetime, maybe never, the US will continue to be despised by the small group of powerful Muslim extremists. That hatred will no doubt spill over into Canada, as it already has. Your answer is that if the US is so bad, why do so many third world citizens wish to emigrate to the US and why do so many illegals sneak into the US. The answer is because their situation is far worse. To them, the US is still the land of milk and honey.

I fear it's going to get a lot worse. Extremists never sleep until their goal is achieved or they are annihilated. There are so many unaccounted for ex-Soviet nuclear and chemical weapons out there in who knows whose hands that sooner or later some real unimaginable shit will hit the fan. I don't want to be part of that.

[racer]

You guys have a culture and society very different from the rest of the world.
You keep telling me that the USA is the greatest country in the world.
Then you tell me that you must carry guns for two reasons:
because you can and because you have the need to protect yourself from the omnipresent threat of criminal attack.

This sounds oxymoronic to me.

our lives are a balance between risk and reward.

we also carry auto insurance to protect us from omnipresent threat of property damage.

we also carry auto insurance to protect us from omnipresent threat of the uninsured.

we also carry medical insurance to protect us from omnipresent threat of illness.

we also carry dental insurance to protect us from omnipresent threat of tooth decay.

we also wear seatbelts to protect us from omnipresent threat of injury.

we also wear helmets to protect us from omnipresent threat of injury.

some keep fire estinguishers to protect us from omnipresent threat of fire.

most keep smoke detectors to protect us from omnipresent threat of fire.

we could do this all day. Does that mean we live in constant fear of all the above? Nope. Well, maybe you do.

So some carry weapons, keep them in their homes to protect us from omnipresent threat of crime, so WE DON'T HAVE TO FEAR IT.

protect yourself... or don't.

[bigbird]

our lives are a balance between risk and reward.

we also carry auto insurance to protect us from omnipresent threat of property damage.

we also carry auto insurance to protect us from omnipresent threat of the uninsured.

we also carry medical insurance to protect us from omnipresent threat of illness.

we also carry dental insurance to protect us from omnipresent threat of tooth decay.

we also wear seatbelts to protect us from omnipresent threat of injury.

we also wear helmets to protect us from omnipresent threat of injury.

some keep fire estinguishers to protect us from omnipresent threat of fire.

most keep smoke detectors to protect us from omnipresent threat of fire.

we could do this all day. Does that mean we live in constant fear of all the above? Nope. Well, maybe you do.

So some carry weapons, keep them in their homes to protect us from omnipresent threat of crime, so WE DON'T HAVE TO FEAR IT.

protect yourself... or don't.


I fully understand all that.
But when I read about 3 year olds shooting 1 year olds, I ask myself why you let it continue to happen.

[taxfree4]

I can't believe you went there.

Here, there and everywhere I just figured I'd cause a diversion, or a comedic intermission, in between the bullets flying. No one likes a spirited debate more than me. It's intelligent, respectful disagreement, instead of shit slinging, that sets this forum apart from any other, except when Phantom does that crypto-reverso stuff with my pictures, then its just pure hate. I just think he doesnt like Italians. "Release the hounds"

[Limoles]

"Nemo tenetur se ipsum accusare ..."

[GNW]

"Nemo tenetur se ipsum accusare ..."

We have the right to remain silent, but some of us just like to bitch about stuff. You know the deal. Down deep we all love each other. It's all good.

[Limoles]

We have the right to remain silent, but some of us just like to bitch about stuff. You know the deal. Down deep we all love each other. It's all good.

Beautiful quote . That's right . Without love we couldn't exist . Protect our children !!!

[GNW]

Beautiful quote . That's right . Without love we couldn't exist . Protect our children !!!

See, that's why I keep my shoot'em up close by. Got to protect my kids if and when the crazies show up that this whole world has produced.

[Limoles]

Here, there and everywhere I just figured I'd cause a diversion, or a comedic intermission, in between the bullets flying. No one likes a spirited debate more than me. It's intelligent, respectful disagreement, instead of shit slinging, that sets this forum apart from any other, except when Phantom does that crypto-reverso stuff with my pictures, then its just pure hate. I just think he doesnt like Italians. "Release the hounds"

Shakespeare's Julius Caesar:

"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war;
That this foul deed shall smell above the earth"

[racer]

I fully understand all that.
But when I read about 3 year olds shooting 1 year olds, I ask myself why you let it continue to happen.

Tough concept to grasp evidently... it happens the same way children die in car crashes and swimming pools and falling down stairs.

Accidents. Typically due to lapses in supervision.

[shooter]

Tough concept to grasp evidently... it happens the same way children die in car crashes and swimming pools and falling down stairs.

Accidents. Typically due to lapses in supervision.
Ding Ding Ding. We have a winner. I don't think accidents happen in Canada. They are pretty much perfect up there. Racer , bird can't grasp the 'accident' concept. Probably with the censorship on their news they don't hear about it.

[bigbird]

Tough concept to grasp evidently... it happens the same way children die in car crashes and swimming pools and falling down stairs.

Accidents. Typically due to lapses in supervision.

Sorry, but again you guys compare a handgun death to being just one of life's excusable tragedies..
You cannot compare a 3 year old shooting a 1 year old to a car crash, drowning, or falling down stairs.
There is no place in a home for a handgun that isn't locked up and empty of ammunition.

[bigbird]

Ding Ding Ding. We have a winner. I don't think accidents happen in Canada. They are pretty much perfect up there. Racer , bird can't grasp the 'accident' concept. Probably with the censorship on their news they don't hear about it.

And a handgun death is not an accident.
An accident is an unforeseen non-preventable event.
Being hit by a block of frozen blue toilet water falling from an aircraft is an accident. Being struck by a bolt of lightning is an accident. A toddler picking up and discharging a handgun is no accident. It's entirely foreseeable and preventable.

[GNW]

And a handgun death is not an accident.
An accident is an unforeseen non-preventable event.
Being hit by a block of frozen blue toilet water falling from an aircraft is an accident. Being struck by a bolt of lightning is an accident. A toddler picking up and discharging a handgun is no accident. It's entirely foreseeable and preventable.

How you figure? A block of frozen blue toilet water falling from an aircraft is an accident?
Responsible gun folk would not have let that happen. Hello ! I think you are getting into shit happens Mr. Bird.

[bigbird]

How you figure? A block of frozen blue toilet water falling from an aircraft is an accident?
Responsible gun folk would not have let that happen. Hello ! I think you are getting into shit happens Mr. Bird.

A 3 year old shooting a 1 year old is not shit happens.
It's your gun laws, or lack thereof.

[srt8-in-largo]

We seem to be at an impass... next topic?

[stroguy]

Just glad I live in a country that says you are free and responsible enough to own, keep and bear firearms. Sad a few morons have to dik it up for the rest of us. If we take away guns those morons will still exist. Guess we should hide the road flares and the razor edged frisbee's.

[srt8-in-largo]

That's the part that gets me... America has been put on a track of LOWERING the BAR for all the morons who can't figure shlt out... and it sure is getting old having the less capable set the standard.

[bigbird]

Sad a few morons have to dik it up for the rest of us.

You could have your legislators make it a lot tougher for those morons to own guns, yet you could still be able to own your handguns.

[stroguy]

You really are naive. Have you ever seen the serious amount of restrictions already on the books that are ignored? Probably not. I know there is a criminal element here that don't do well with following rules and laws? Are there any Canadians that break the law on handguns?

[GNW]

This arguing has gone on long enough. We all got to get better at it. May the best man win.


http://www.wikihow.com/Always-Win-an-Argument

[bigbird]

You really are naive. Have you ever seen the serious amount of restrictions already on the books that are ignored? Probably not. I know there is a criminal element here that don't do well with following rules and laws? Are there any Canadians that break the law on handguns?

Naive about what?

We aren't allowed to own handguns. without onerous requirements, like joining a gun club, passing written and practical tests, thorough and arduous background checks, requiring a temporary police issued permit whenever the handgun will be transported from gun club to home, etc. They are restricted weapons.

If you use an illegally attained handgun to commit any crime in Canada, you will get extra incarceration above and beyond a typical sentence.

Very few Canadians own handguns, and fewer use them illegally, as they're just not available. The few that are used in crime have all been smuggled in from the USA.
Try crossing into Canada with an undeclared handgun.

[bigbird]

This arguing has gone on long enough. We all got to get better at it. May the best man win.


http://www.wikihow.com/Always-Win-an-Argument

No arguing.
I'm saying that tragedies like the one in this topic are preventable, they are not accidents, and your legislators don't have the balls to tighten up gun control in the US to prevent these horrific incidents. Let any Tom, Dick, or Harry own a handgun in the USA. It's your right. Just make it more inconvenient and difficult for any schmuck to just walk into a sporting goods store or flea market and buy a handgun.

[GNW]

No arguing.
I'm saying that tragedies like the one in this topic are preventable, they are not accidents, and your legislators don't have the balls to tighten up gun control in the US to prevent these horrific incidents. Let any Tom, Dick, or Harry own a handgun in the USA. It's your right. Just make it more inconvenient and difficult for any schmuck to just walk into a sporting goods store or flea market and buy a handgun.

This schmuck has bought 3 pistols and 1 rifle lately and went through background checks. It's not like we don't have schmuck checking. Thanks Bird.

[DaWadd]

I think this thread is just becoming a "increase my post count" contest.:stirthepot:

[shooter]

Bird can't be out-argued. Common sense and facts mean nothing to him. He can go on like this for months. Fortunately he doesn't live in our country. Therefore he is a non-factor. Inconsequential. He doesn't matter.

[hoglaw]

Bird can't be out-argued. Common sense and facts mean nothing to him. He can go on like this for months. Fortunately he doesn't live in our country. Therefore he is a non-factor. Inconsequential. He doesn't matter.

+1

[Bill1584]

I think this thread is just becoming a "increase my post count" contest.:stirthepot:

Good point. Speaking of which, how many posts do you need to not be 'junior' member? Might just stop there, for the off-topic side anyway.

[hiflyer]

Good point. Speaking of which, how many posts do you need to not be 'junior' member? .

A hundred.

[Bill1584]

A hundred.

Hrmm. Junior isn't such a bad thing....

[bigbird]

Bird can't be out-argued. Common sense and facts mean nothing to him. He can go on like this for months. Fortunately he doesn't live in our country. Therefore he is a non-factor. Inconsequential. He doesn't matter.


It seems I've pissed off the conservative right wing to the point where I'm a persona non grata of this forum.

You should just block me or don't respond to my posts.
The show can't go on without an audience.

Good thing all this back and forth drivel is posted in the "off topic" section.

[GNW]

It seems I've pissed off the conservative right wing to the point where I'm a persona non grata of this forum.

You should just block me or don't respond to my posts.
The show can't go on without an audience.

Good thing all this back and forth drivel is posted in the "off topic" section.

Bird man not to worry. I have unloaded my gun and putting it back in the holster right now.
Have a good day !
Got to get back to Trailer Park Boys and F6B riding.

[Navvet]

It seems I've pissed off the conservative right wing to the point where I'm a persona non grata of this forum.

You should just block me or don't respond to my posts.
The show can't go on without an audience.

Good thing all this back and forth drivel is posted in the "off topic" section.

Enjoy a spirited discussion. Just stick to your guns (figurativly) and we will stick to ours (literaly).

:039: :poke: :poke:

[Limoles]

Enjoy a spirited discussion. Just stick to your guns (figurativly) and we will stick to ours (literaly).

:039: :poke: :poke:

Alleluja , Alleluja ...

[Bill1584]

It seems I've pissed off the conservative right wing to the point where I'm a persona non grata of this forum.

You should just block me or don't respond to my posts.
The show can't go on without an audience.

Good thing all this back and forth drivel is posted in the "off topic" section.

Nah. You, your foreign opinions and your cocky attitude are welcome at my house for a meal and/or a beer any time. My table is open to all comers, and we have had some real doozies around it. If you find yourself headed to the Houston area just give me a day or two heads up. It's doubtful anyone here seriously spites you your personal history and your general take on things. Even more doubtful that you have really pissed anyone off. Everyone who signed up for this forum got to the point where we could sit at a keyboard and opine like this through hard work and sacrifice. More in common than not.

[bigbird]

your cocky attitude


WTF?
Anyway, thanks for the stamp of tolerance. I'll jump on my F6B right now. Be in Houston in 3 days. My only protection will be a bad case of B.O.

[Bill1584]

WTF?
Anyway, thanks for the stamp of tolerance. I'll jump on my F6B right now. Be in Houston in 3 days. My only protection will be a bad case of B.O.

Ok Bigbird. I hear you. My bad. Good day.

[racer]

Sorry, but again you guys compare a handgun death to being just one of life's excusable tragedies..
You cannot compare a 3 year old shooting a 1 year old to a car crash, drowning, or falling down stairs.
There is no place in a home for a handgun that isn't locked up and empty of ammunition.

More difficult concepts for you...

There is no place in a home for a pool that isn't drained and empty of water.

There is no place in a home for a pool that isn't fenced and locked up.

There is no place in a home for rodent poison that isn't locked up and out of reach of children

There is no place in a home for household chemicals that aren't locked up and out of reach of children

There is no place in a home for a staircase that isn't blocked with a child gate

There is no place in a home for an unsupervised child





And a handgun death is not an accident.


Sure it is, unless the three year old did it on purpose.



A toddler picking up and discharging a handgun is no accident. It's entirely foreseeable and preventable.



Yup... without proper supervision:

A toddler falling down the stairs is no accident. It's entirely foreseeable and preventable

A toddler falling out a window is no accident. It's entirely foreseeable and preventable

A toddler stepping in front of a moving car is no accident. It's entirely foreseeable and preventable

A toddler drinking a household chemical is no accident. It's entirely foreseeable and preventable

and yet- these things happen to chidren far more often.

I can do this all day..

[bigbird]

I can do this all day..

So can I.
No accident. Look up the definition of accident. It's an unforeseen event.
Leaving a loaded handgun lying around with children present begs for a negligent homicide charge.
If there was a law federal demanding loaded firearms be secured in a home, we wouldn't be talking about this.

I repose the same question.
Would you feel any differently if it was your child negligently shot to death in a scenario beyond your control?
Would you demand firearms be secured in a home, or would you just shrug your shoulders, quote your constitutional right to bear arms, and plan a funeral?

[srt8-in-largo]

Now we can't agree on what an accident is? :icon_rolleyes:

Jeez. Where's the unsubscribe button.

[Phantom]

If there was a law federal demanding loaded firearms be secured in a home, we wouldn't be talking about this.


Sorry but your "LAW" argument holds no water.

There are LAWS on the books that dictate the fact that convicted Felons are not allowed to pocess a fire arm .... but many do
There are LAWS on the books that dictate the fact that convicted DWI criminals lose their driving privilege by having their license suspended or taken away .... but many continue to drive
There are LAWS on the books that dictate the fact that CANADIANS pay their share of Taxes .... but many drive south of the border to break the law and avoid their responsibility.

There are LAWS ............

Next time a convicted FELON stops you or your family and places a GUN in your face .... Make sure to WIP out the law book and point out the statute in the section where the LAW says that the individual with the gun pointed at your head is not allowed to have the gun that he is about to pull the trigger on and introduce lead into your LAW filled cranium. Curious to see if he gives a damn about another law.

Bird, how many laws do you break on a regular basis? Or skirt and get away with? :shrug:

I just broke 2 laws this evening, I was speeding most of the way home without wearing my seat belt :icon_redface: . The laws on the book didn't stop me from driving. Yup them laws sure scared me and prevented me from absolutely nothing :spank: just saying .... more laws is NOT the answer. People will do whatever they want wether it is legal or not. Why not propose that government place cameras in our homes to see if we are being good boys and girls?

[bigbird]

Next time a convicted FELON stops you or your family and places a GUN in your face ...



I have never heard of this happening to anyone I know.
I have never heard of anyone I know being car jacked, robbed, or assaulted.
I have never had a house I owned broken into, and never had a car broken into. I also don't know of anyone personally who had their house broken into.
We don't worry about shit like that. Obviously some common sense is needed. One wouldn't be out on foot at 4 am wandering around in the run down areas of the city.
Almost all our crime is violence between street gangs or drug deal beefs.

It seems you are all so paranoid about the "what ifs". I'm sad to hear that the possibility of being a violent crime victim is such an omnipresent perceived threat.

[Phantom]

I have never heard of this happening to anyone I know.
I have never heard of anyone I know being car jacked, robbed, or assaulted.
I have never had a house I owned broken into, and never had a car broken into. I also don't know of anyone personally who had their house broken into.
We don't worry about shit like that. Obviously some common sense is needed. One wouldn't be out on foot at 4 am wandering around in the run down areas of the city.
Almost all our crime is violence between street gangs or drug deal beefs.

It seems you are all so paranoid about the "what ifs". I'm sad to hear that the possibility of being a violent crime victim is such an omnipresent perceived threat.


You missed my point completely ....

You proposed placing ANOTHER Federal LAW on the books that would not necessarily change anything other then take away a little more of our freedoms. Your new LAW ..... I would interpret it as the government now has to hold our hand on how to store a gun.

We don't need any more LAWS. We need RESPONSIBILITY

[Elin in So. Cal.]

Just the facts... draw your own conclusions:

http://38.media.tumblr.com/8f3c20e261443cb4d32935d1266e2421/tumblr_nmvdawjm6K1qat9xfo2_500.gif

http://40.media.tumblr.com/b5c28f7d5315bac3d782f3df4ff7ad3e/tumblr_nmuww4SDFm1qat9xfo1_500.jpg

I don't think I'll change any minds, but more facts:
Thanks to the NRA, no one has measured the true economic cost of gun violence... until now.
And if you only want the facts in video, here goes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nook1b8EyTs

You see, it isn't about one child being shot in the face, even though that is a shocking event. It is a bigger issue than that. Listen to these people affected by gun violence:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvW5gD8YYUA

[Steve 0080]

Elin, I have never been one for numbers because they are to easily slanted in whatever direction the writer wants...So we shoot 125K people a year? That 342 a day...thats about the same number of people killed in cars.... are these numbers correct? I am not discounting your research just a little surprised !

[Elin in So. Cal.]

Elin, I have never been one for numbers because they are to easily slanted in whatever direction the writer wants...So we shoot 125K people a year? That 342 a day...thats about the same number of people killed in cars.... are these numbers correct? I am not discounting your research just a little surprised !

You are saying we kill 342 people per day in cars. (Just as an aside, MOST of those are accidental without malice aforehand--unlike the numbers of intentional shootings--just sayin'). But we don't KILL 125K people a year with guns. "Jennifer Longdon was one of at least 750,000 Americans injured by gunshots over the last decade, and she was lucky not to be one of the more than 320,000 killed." So divide 320,000 by ten (a decade) and you have 32,000 killer per year. However my point to the article is that the COSTS for each of these devastating effects to our society is HUGE. (And there were 75,000 INJURED, not killed--in addition to the 32G killed per year.

You and I and everyone else on this forum pays for those costs, for the most part. Courts, jail/prison time, medical expenses and other issues of a financial nature outlined in the article show that gun violence is a huge public fiscal responsiblity. If there were no guns (and therefore no gun violence) the inherent costs would decrease. I'm all for a society where I don't have to pay to incarcerate people for shooting other people.

And before you get on a tangent to say that they'll find another way to kill, I can assure you that it is a hell of a lot easier to avoid a knife fight than a .357.

[smokinjoe187]

You are saying we kill 342 people per day in cars. (Just as an aside, MOST of those are accidental without malice aforehand--unlike the numbers of intentional shootings--just sayin'). But we don't KILL 125K people a year with guns. "Jennifer Longdon was one of at least 750,000 Americans injured by gunshots over the last decade, and she was lucky not to be one of the more than 320,000 killed." So divide 320,000 by ten (a decade) and you have 32,000 killer per year. However my point to the article is that the COSTS for each of these devastating effects to our society is HUGE. (And there were 75,000 INJURED, not killed--in addition to the 32G killed per year.

You and I and everyone else on this forum pays for those costs, for the most part. Courts, jail/prison time, medical expenses and other issues of a financial nature outlined in the article show that gun violence is a huge public fiscal responsiblity. If there were no guns (and therefore no gun violence) the inherent costs would decrease. I'm all for a society where I don't have to pay to incarcerate people for shooting other people.

And before you get on a tangent to say that they'll find another way to kill, I can assure you that it is a hell of a lot easier to avoid a knife fight than a .357.

you were right,you wont change our minds....

[Steve 0080]

I would rather be in a gun fight...if you are in a knife fight with a gunman and there is less than 20' between you ...the knife will win !

[53driver]

I would rather be in a gun fight...if you are in a knife fight with a gunman and there is less than 20' between you ...the knife will win !

Uhh...unless your knife throwing skills are of Steven Segal's Hollywood caliber, I'm betting on the gun at anything greater than 5'.

[Steve 0080]

Uhh...unless your knife throwing skills are of Steven Segal's Hollywood caliber, I'm betting on the gun at anything greater than 5'.

I was waiting on the first victim...you are it!!! Try it for your self ...put 20 or less between you, ( gun in holster ) and person with a stick.. before you bet the farm, try it once, a thousand times...the stick will win EVERY time !!! Don't ask me how I know ( it was a fruit knife with a 6" blade)

[53driver]

I was waiting on the first victim...you are it!!! Try it for your self ...put 20 or less between you, ( gun in holster ) and person with a stick.. before you bet the farm, try it once, a thousand times...the stick will win EVERY time !!! Don't ask me how I know ( it was a fruit knife with a 6" blade)

I shall defer to your experience, as most of my experience is not urban nor of civilian nature.

Many variables though as I would not have to abide by police protocol:
- What led up to this? Am I already "on guard" or is this guy just looking at my uniform, happens to have a stick (or she happens to have a fruit knife) and decides to play?
- If I see a guy with a stick approaching me, gun will not be in holster.
- If any guy is running at me inside 50', hand is already on gun, safety is off.
- Are we stationary, or am I moving, ducking, covering?
- Is he running straight at me?

[Steve 0080]

Go to Defcon 5...same scenario ... 20" knife and a gun...knife wins every time !!!

P.S. Safety's are for sissys

[53driver]

Go to Defcon 5...same scenario ... 20" knife and a gun...knife wins every time !!!

So...you would draw your baton instead of a lead dispenser and do this manually?

(Concur about safeties...Glock!)

[stroguy]

Those crazy canucks.

https://youtu.be/WWBDGkwRvnY

The child in the cart shouldn't have been in that position. Irresponsible parent.

Curious to the polling, if that nut had run the cart over would a handgun have a POSITIVE effect on ending this situation.

[53driver]

Those crazy canucks.

The child in the cart shouldn't have been in that position. Irresponsible parent.

Curious to the polling, if that nut had run the cart over would a handgun have a POSITIVE effect on ending this situation.

Perhaps a baton/umbrella/stick delivered sharply and with purpose to the rider's helmet, shoulder or wheels...

[stroguy]

Elin, you do realize that every death by gun is classified a homicide? When a police officer shoots a person and kills them that is a homicide. When you break into my home and I shoot you that is a homicide. Then conveniently the terminology becomes murder so the weak mind troll believes that there were 33,000 murders when that is not a fact. Of course there are zero shreds of paper to justify the monetary numbers spouted. The court costs are there for all crimes. Whether there were no homicides or not the costs are still there. That's some pretty weak pap in those videos. Anyone ever figure the costs on an accidental drowning.....the police costs to investigate that drowning, the costs of the courts to investigate the parents, and on and on? There is no positive outcome for someone owning their own backyard pool, but we still allow many times the number of accidental gun deaths to backyard or recreational accidental drownings.

[Steve 0080]

There is nothing positive that comes from a police pursuit ...nothing... let them go and go get a doughnut !!!

[Limoles]

Elin, I have never been one for numbers because they are to easily slanted in whatever direction the writer wants...So we shoot 125K people a year? That 342 a day...thats about the same number of people killed in cars.... are these numbers correct? I am not discounting your research just a little surprised !


Surprised of what ? Did anybody ever differentiated causes of these comparisons ? Car accidents in most cases comes as an effect of stupidity and luck of education . Killings by guns comes thru mental illnesses, will of revenge , sense of perpetrator's "superiority" over the victim or any target . Discharge of gun in any circumstances is much more harmful to the choosen subject and as a more effective tool , always guaranteeing mortal wound . It's deliberate act , not adequately compared to the car accidents , or swimming pool drownings .

Defending rightful privileges to possess fire arms is more symbolic , than practical empowerment against violators ; gives the only false sense of survival in hypothetically created situation . Usually the victim doesn't have chances to reach for his ( her ) gun . In those statistics , we can count only few examples , where such a law of "rights to defend yourself" gives the victim equal chances to withstand violator .
It can be only seen in western movies , where two cowboys approaching each other , will move gun faster for ultimate result . Yes - Hollywood contribute to the growing violence . Most movies are overfilled with brutality , which affects societies' mind , create paranoid sense of being afraid of anything. This process is killing true values and human properties of morality . Sure - Constitution also gives them "rights" to produce it . Everything can be stupid , but firstly must be "legal" . This vicious circle has been widened to unreal scenarios , which are colliding with our normal existence and destroys social behavior .

Reading opinions of those , who are un-welcoming differently presented voices , or statements , in which blind evaluations are providing some not so clever ( and usually unchecked ) comparisons to other countries , are plainly nationalistic . Their limited image of life and selected sense of given them rights , stimulate the only sense of power , because ... "This is America" and if somebody doesn't belong in here , must leave this Forum . This is also chauvinistic and definitely unproductive form of thinking . They are unable to improve or change their mind set . So - let them be . Nobody is taking "their rights' away .

I'm glad , that in late stage of our debate , finally women took the stand . Her more sensitive to the problem suggestions are adding reflections , which must count , as a cleverly provided facts , focusing our attention , which should not be ignored .

[Steve 0080]

Do you ever get tired?

[Limoles]

Do you ever get tired?

No - because life matters to me .

[53driver]

Dude,
Time out. You are making yourself appear silly and ill-informed - which is not what I believe you to be.
However, in Steve's words, you my want to give it a rest.


..always guaranteeing mortal wound.. FALSE!


..It's deliberate act .. So there are no gun accidents? Tread carefully here....especially given the title of the thread.


..Defending rightful privileges to possess fire arms is more symbolic...This is a common lament of other country's ex-pats who come to this country trying to change this country to fit their beliefs. I tell them go home and change their own country.


...gives the only false sense of survival in hypothetically created situation...You have obviously never been burgled at gun point nor had your home threatened by a criminal. Nothing "false" or hypothetical about it. Those were VERY real events in my life. Until you've walked a mile in my shoes.....


...This process is killing true values and human properties of morality...Which values? Which morals?


...This vicious circle has been widened to unreal scenarios , which are colliding with our normal existence and destroys social behavior...Again, my experiences are very real. For you to discount them with a wave of your hand over your keyboard is disrespectful and a lie.


.."This is America" and if somebody doesn't belong in here , must leave this Forum...I, and many others on this Forum, spent hundreds of "man-years" in uniform protecting your right to say what you want, when and where you want to. I have no issue with you sounding off. BUT - I do not have to agree with you and I will take serious umbrage with you if you try and CHANGE what I have fought to defend. It may not be perfect, but it's the best place on this globe right now, and as I stated above, if someone feels otherwise, they can go somewhere else and amazingly still login to the this Forum from VERY far away.


...They are unable to improve or change their mind set . So - let them be... Really? Now you are judging others' ability for rational thought and due process? More than a bit shallow.


Her more sensitive to the problem suggestions are adding reflections...Oh man. Adding a woman's point of view has NOTHING to do with facts. My wife is a national pistol champion. And if I was Elin, or any other woman, whose facts you believe allegedly bring a modicum of "sensitivity" and "reflection" because the typists have breasts and indoor plumbing? I'd swat you for being the male chauvinist.

Cheers mate.

[Navvet]

Dude,
Time out. You are making yourself appear silly and ill-informed - ........... Cheers mate.

:lolup: :lolup: Well said :lolup: :lolup:

It's amazing to me sometimes that those who have actually put their life on the line for others freedom are usually the more tollerant of others opinions.

I try to keep my wife away from some of the posts here, She is a retired US Navy Chief (ETC SW/AW) and proudly wears both expert medals, pistol and rifle.

[53driver]

:lolup: :lolup: Well said :lolup: :lolup:

It's amazing to me sometimes that those who have actually put their life on the line for others freedom are usually the more tollerant of others opinions.

I try to keep my wife away from some of the posts here, She is a retired US Navy Chief (ETC SW/AW) and proudly wears both expert medals, pistol and rifle.

Isn't it cool having a spouse who knows weapons?
Mine is a retired Navy CDR.
Went to Camp Perry and won.

[srt8-in-largo]

Dude,
Time out. You are making yourself appear silly and ill-informed - which is not what I believe you to be.
However, in Steve's words, you my want to give it a rest.

FALSE!

So there are no gun accidents? Tread carefully here....especially given the title of the thread.

This is a common lament of other country's ex-pats who come to this country trying to change this country to fit their beliefs. I tell them go home and change their own country.

You have obviously never been burgled at gun point nor had your home threatened by a criminal. Nothing "false" or hypothetical about it. Those were VERY real events in my life. Until you've walked a mile in my shoes.....

Which values? Which morals?

Again, my experiences are very real. For you to discount them with a wave of your hand over your keyboard is disrespectful and a lie.

I, and many others on this Forum, spent hundreds of "man-years" in uniform protecting your right to say what you want, when and where you want to. I have no issue with you sounding off. BUT - I do not have to agree with you and I will take serious umbrage with you if you try and CHANGE what I have fought to defend. It may not be perfect, but it's the best place on this globe right now, and as I stated above, if someone feels otherwise, they can go somewhere else and amazingly still login to the this Forum from VERY far away.

Really? Now you are judging others' ability for rational thought and due process? More than a bit shallow.

Oh man. Adding a woman's point of view has NOTHING to do with facts. My wife is a national pistol champion. And if I was Elin, or any other woman, whose facts you believe allegedly bring a modicum of "sensitivity" and "reflection" because the typists have breasts and indoor plumbing? I'd swat you for being the male chauvinist.

Cheers mate.

+1

We began lowering the bar when we started putting things in Spanish to accommodate illegal aliens from the south. This is an English speaking, Christian country, that allows citizens to own guns. All new residents\citizens\immigrants should accept and respect that.



:lolup: :lolup: Well said :lolup: :lolup:

It's amazing to me sometimes that those who have actually put their life on the line for others freedom are usually the more tollerant of others opinions.

I try to keep my wife away from some of the posts here, She is a retired US Navy Chief (ETC SW/AW) and proudly wears both expert medals, pistol and rifle.

+1... except for the part about being married to a Navy Chief :icon_biggrin:

[Phantom]

Dude,
Time out. You are making yourself appear silly and ill-informed - which is not what I believe you to be.
However, in Steve's words, you my want to give it a rest.

FALSE!

So there are no gun accidents? Tread carefully here....especially given the title of the thread.

This is a common lament of other country's ex-pats who come to this country trying to change this country to fit their beliefs. I tell them go home and change their own country.

You have obviously never been burgled at gun point nor had your home threatened by a criminal. Nothing "false" or hypothetical about it. Those were VERY real events in my life. Until you've walked a mile in my shoes.....

Which values? Which morals?

Again, my experiences are very real. For you to discount them with a wave of your hand over your keyboard is disrespectful and a lie.

I, and many others on this Forum, spent hundreds of "man-years" in uniform protecting your right to say what you want, when and where you want to. I have no issue with you sounding off. BUT - I do not have to agree with you and I will take serious umbrage with you if you try and CHANGE what I have fought to defend. It may not be perfect, but it's the best place on this globe right now, and as I stated above, if someone feels otherwise, they can go somewhere else and amazingly still login to the this Forum from VERY far away.

Really? Now you are judging others' ability for rational thought and due process? More than a bit shallow.

Oh man. Adding a woman's point of view has NOTHING to do with facts. My wife is a national pistol champion. And if I was Elin, or any other woman, whose facts you believe allegedly bring a modicum of "sensitivity" and "reflection" because the typists have breasts and indoor plumbing? I'd swat you for being the male chauvinist.

Cheers mate.


:lolup: :lolup: Well said :lolup: :lolup:

It's amazing to me sometimes that those who have actually put their life on the line for others freedom are usually the more tollerant of others opinions.

I try to keep my wife away from some of the posts here, She is a retired US Navy Chief (ETC SW/AW) and proudly wears both expert medals, pistol and rifle.


Isn't it cool having a spouse who knows weapons?
Mine is a retired Navy CDR.
Went to Camp Perry and won.


Steve ... BRAVO, well stated X 100 .notworthy.

Steve, allow me to thank you for your service. I can't Thank You enough for the sacrifices that you and our military veterans have made so that I could live in this great Nation with all of it's freedoms that you and our military protected.
:cheers:

[Limoles]

Fortunately this thread will disappear , but problems will remain the same . No "proudly" self proclaimed advocates of exclusive superiority ( in always lost battle of illusional fight with devil ) will be able to cure national disease of violence , none of them will have an answer for illegal drugs addiction , cemetaries will gather more mourners crying over prematurely deceased youngsters than all visitors of libraries , museums and art galleries combined together . Some will accept progressive thinking and many shall realize that English language ( which until now is not even official one ) is only common or still popular ( in decline ), who ( beside immigrants ) build America and why ( thanks to them ) is so great ? But many might ask themselves :
"What ( beside expressing falsely understood , or executed power ) , my given rights to possess firearm did help me or others?" I don't expect any logic answer for that , unless ranters wants to convince others , that guns improve life and provide co-existential tranquility .

[srt8-in-largo]

Enjoy your life Limoles. If you believe you have a better understanding of the Universe, then please, act on your compulsions and make it all better. Otherwise, it's nothing more than an idea in your head... subject to disagreement by others.

[GNW]

Fortunately this thread will disappear , but problems will remain the same . No "proudly" self proclaimed advocates of exclusive superiority ( in always lost battle of illusional fight with devil ) will be able to cure national disease of violence , none of them will have an answer for illegal drugs addiction , cemetaries will gather more mourners crying over prematurely deceased youngsters than all visitors of libraries , museums and art galleries combined together . Some will accept progressive thinking and many shall realize that English language ( which until now is not even official one ) is only common or still popular ( in decline ), who ( beside immigrants ) build America and why ( thanks to them ) is so great ? But many might ask themselves :
"What ( beside expressing falsely understood , or executed power ) , my given rights to possess firearm did help me or others?" I don't expect any logic answer for that , unless ranters wants to convince others , that guns improve life and provide co-existential tranquility .

WTF did that mate say??

[srt8-in-largo]

WTF did that mate say??

He said gun ownership doesn't help anyone, and your "need" for it is imaginary.

[srt8-in-largo]

:crackup::crackup::crackup:

[GNW]

Fortunately this thread will disappear , but problems will remain the same . No "proudly" self proclaimed advocates of exclusive superiority ( in always lost battle of illusional fight with devil ) will be able to cure national disease of violence , none of them will have an answer for illegal drugs addiction , cemetaries will gather more mourners crying over prematurely deceased youngsters than all visitors of libraries , museums and art galleries combined together . Some will accept progressive thinking and many shall realize that English language ( which until now is not even official one ) is only common or still popular ( in decline ), who ( beside immigrants ) build America and why ( thanks to them ) is so great ? But many might ask themselves :
"What ( beside expressing falsely understood , or executed power ) , my given rights to possess firearm did help me or others?" I don't expect any logic answer for that , unless ranters wants to convince others , that guns improve life and provide co-existential tranquility .

Fred Flintstone is on synthetic Maryjane !

[53driver]

Limoles,
There are more than a few people trying to figure out what you wrote and what you meant, so I am going to try to hep them understand and provide correction as required.


...Fortunately this thread will disappear...
Nope. It's on the internet - it will be on the internet forever.



...No "proudly" self proclaimed advocates of exclusive superiority ( in always lost battle of illusional fight with devil ) will be able to cure national disease of violence , none of them will have an answer for illegal drugs addiction , cemetaries will gather more mourners crying over prematurely deceased youngsters than all visitors of libraries , museums and art galleries combined together ...
So, who does have that ability? If an entity is not respected, it is powerless to make change. So, the people have to decide who will be their savior? As our recent elections have shown and all the cultural bifurcation that has occurred, we, as a Nation, are sharply divided. So, basically no one has the capability to deliver the answer you seek. Is that what you are saying?
Or? Should those people who are diseased with violence, do illegal drugs, and die too young because of their lawlessness, be forced to visit museums, libraries and art galleries?
Maybe, just maybe, if they were raised with good morals, respect, social decency, and respect for their fellow man, then they would have patronized the libraries, museums and art galleries of their own accord and learned the ways of peaceful existentialism.



...Some will accept progressive thinking...
Founded in logic for the global perspective, and specifically tailored for the United States of America on the principles of the Constitution, sure, no sweat - we can get as progressive as you like.



...many shall realize that English language ( which until now is not even official one ) is only common or still popular ( in decline ), ...
Again, we seem to be not 100% accurate. English, the King's English, is an official language. It is the official language of ALL GLOBAL air traffic. It is also the official language of the United States of America. Yes, it is in decline because people are coming to this country and are not assimilating themselves, but rather wish to change this great country to suit their customs, beliefs and language. Try that in ANY other country and see how long it lasts. What we are seeing is what happens when tolerance and political correctness are misconstrued.



...who ( beside immigrants ) build America and why ( thanks to them ) is so great ? ...
I'm of Irish descent. I have friends of Euro/African/Asian/South American and even Canadian descent. Yes, America is a melting pot. But there are those who arrive and refuse to accept the conglomeration and want to push their own agenda at others' expense: taxpayer dollars and freedoms. Please review Bill Murray's soliloquy in the movie "Stripes" on how we are all 'mutts.'



...But many might ask themselves :
"What ( beside expressing falsely understood , or executed power ) , my given rights to possess firearm did help me or others?" ...
Simply and mono-syllabically: it saved lives.
Saved my wife & children from an illegal-drug consuming idiot entering my house uninvited.



...I don't expect any logic answer for that , unless ranters wants to convince others , that guns improve life and provide co-existential tranquility ....
Pity mate - because you got a logical answer based on facts and experience.
And? I'm not ranting, I'm not trying to convince others. And yes, since that event, and because both my wife and I had the means to defend our home, we are living in "co-existential tranquility" - until the kids come back for a visit, then all bets are off.

I'd like you to ponder this please:
You seem to think we should all arrive at the Finish Line at the same time.
I am of the idea that we are all equal at the Starting Line.
Then, through a progressive series of decisions and actions to which we should be held accountable to ourselves, our society, and our deity, we live our lives and Finish accordingly.
Cheers.

[Limoles]

Enjoy your life Limoles. If you believe you have a better understanding of the Universe, then please, act on your compulsions and make it all better. Otherwise, it's nothing more than an idea in your head... subject to disagreement by others.

Thank you . I really do enjoy my life . Maybe is not similar to others , but it wasn't my intention either . During our debate I get involved in discussion , which triggered twisted reactions among those , who have different than me observations of life , or see it from different angle . Accusing me of changing their believes , customs and cultivated traditions happened to be a big lie , because I never did it. The worst part of it were sleazy attempts to impoverish my patriotism . Who gave them any bases to think like that is a mystery ? It went beyond simple disagreements . After "support" of few ( + 1s ), they thought , or felt that "representing their believes" is equal to many others , or even this could be a fundamental stone "to save humanity" , which actually is more than fantasy . We ended with no solution to the problem and this is , what I could expect . My voice will not disappear as indicated , but will slowly blend in this unprodictable discussion . The only my mistake was to learn , how consequences of blind obsessions in guns are leading to extreme events , which experiences do not give anybody reasons to be proud of. And that's my only motivations to stay away from firearms , because life matters to me. To those , who got offended by my unintentional sever-ability , I do sincerely apologize . Stay alive .

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/mass-shootings-central-american-history-article-1.1457514

[taxfree4]

That was a very healthy exchange with no winners an no losers, a good way to exercise those debating muscles. One question though, why is the word mono-syllabic multi-syllable?

[53driver]

Limoles,
We believe in the same things. We have a common goal. There is a solution.
Read on....


...Thank you . I really do enjoy my life . Maybe is not similar to others , but it wasn't my intention either...
On behalf of a multitude of uniformed service members past & present, and the Founding Fathers who penned the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, you are welcome for a country to which you came and now enjoy a good life which is not necessarily similar to others - and that diversity is a GREAT thing.



...Accusing me of changing their believes , customs and cultivated traditions happened to be a big lie , because I never did it...
No one accused you specifically of doing this. You have adapted and assimilated and while your beliefs do not necessarily reflect mine and perhaps others, there are many immigrants who come here and attempt change for their own cause.



...The worst part of it were sleazy attempts to impoverish my patriotism . Who gave them any bases to think like that is a mystery ? It went beyond simple disagreements...
I do not believe your patriotism, in any way, shape, or form, was challenged. It is obvious you have done well in this country, and you are a good business and work example for many of those native born Americans. They should follow your example, rather than get sucked into a lawless life and ultimately, as you put it, an untimely death.



...After "support" of few ( + 1s ), they thought , or felt that "representing their believes" is equal to many others , or even this could be a fundamental stone "to save humanity" , which actually is more than fantasy...
I would really enjoy a practical discussion of this concept. Humanity is in a real tight spot; drugs, gangs, violence in the name of religions, corrupt politicians, etc. I would really enjoy hearing a path forward to clean up this mess.



...We ended with no solution to the problem and this is , what I could expect . My voice will not disappear as indicated , but will slowly blend in this unprodictable discussion...
Well, not exactly. Perhaps you expected no solution, but I see a definite solution set - for everyone on the planet.
As humanity further descends into lawlessness and no respect for human life - regardless of the reason - I am (and I believe ALL of us are) faced with 2 options:
1. Take it upon oneself to be able to defend the family & loved ones and what I have worked for, from those whose disrespectful lawlessness would steal, hurt, or murder.
2. Choose to NOT be able to defend and just "roll with the tide."
I choose the former.
I realize there are many in this country - perhaps such as yourself - who choose the latter, and I will happily let you do that - it's a free country. I am not advocating that you change your ways.
But, using the same logic, please do not restrict my Constitutionally endowed freedoms and believe I should change mine.



The only my mistake was to learn , how consequences of blind obsessions in guns are leading to extreme events , which experiences do not give anybody reasons to be proud of. And that's my only motivations to stay away from firearms , because life matters to me. To those , who got offended by my unintentional sever-ability , I do sincerely apologize . Stay alive
No apologies necessary - never apologize for what you believe in. Yes, there are sick people out there who are not mentally stable and will do bad things. Do they have "blind obsessions in guns?" Maybe, but the gun is still only a tool.
Do I have a "blind obsession with guns?" Nope. They are a tool. Just like fire is a "good servant, but a bad master," any weapon in the wrong hands is bad. There are more than enough laws on the books to keep weapons out of bad people's hands. They are just un-enforceable, again due to our lawless, disrespectful-of-life society we as a nation have fostered.



...Becasue life matters to me....
That's a beautiful statement.
"Life matters to me" is what I was thinking, as I drew my weapon from it's holster, raised it up and pointed it at the crack-head trying to enter my house.
My family's lives matters and I'm defending them with every ounce of energy I have.

Limoles - we have the same root philosophy. We just differ in the implementation of that belief.
I pray a long life for you and your loved ones and I pray that you never need a weapon and wished that you had one for their defense.
Stay alive.

[53driver]

One question though, why is the word mono-syllabic multi-syllable?

Because things always have to get harder before they get simple and "poly-syllabic" sounds like a denture cream.

[taxfree4]

Because things always have to get harder before they get simple and "poly-syllabic" sounds like a denture cream.

It does sound like a denture cream. The other one that bothers me is "void where prohibited" if it's prohibited it's void, no? Before Phantom busts my ass I am not hijacking the thread (Disclaimer)

[Navvet]

Isn't it cool having a spouse who knows weapons?
Mine is a retired Navy CDR.
Went to Camp Perry and won.

+1 :lolup::lolup:

Way cool !!!!!


And , as always, Thank you for your service and for helping us serve.

[taxfree4]

I just need one more post for 600, thank you.

[Limoles]

It does sound like a denture cream. The other one that bothers me is "void where prohibited" if it's prohibited it's void, no? Before Phantom busts my ass I am not hijacking the thread (Disclaimer)

You shouldn't allow anybody to bust your ass or get hurt in the way you afraid to be . You are my neighbor and it's my obligation to defend every inch of your integrity . The only problem is , I don't know , how to split it for micro pieces , but at least you can count on me . Finally the gorgeous weather let us to enjoy riding and I hope wind will blow away past winter stagnation . I'm facing now Cape May for charity event , dedicated for children affected with cancer . That's like almost epidemy among these little defenseless creatures and it's a tragedy of modern times , tearing my heart so bad .

[GNW]

You shouldn't allow anybody to bust your ass or get hurt in the way you afraid to be . You are my neighbor and it's my obligation to defend every inch of your integrity . The only problem is , I don't know , how to split it for micro pieces , but at least you can count on me . Finally the gorgeous weather let us to enjoy riding and I hope wind will blow away past winter stagnation . I'm facing now Cape May for charity event , dedicated for children affected with cancer . That's like almost epidemy among these little defenseless creatures and it's a tragedy of modern times , tearing my heart so bad .

Like I said on my last post on this thread.
It's a said deal.

[srt8-in-largo]

Limoles,

Unfortunately the gun debate stirs deep emotions and probably subconscious fears in people, myself included. The emotion and fear, for me, come from the very real attempt by politicians to ban guns, and if a ban can't happen, then to make gun ownership so expensive and difficult that it becomes an in-situ ban. IMO I think if handguns are banned, then it becomes easier to ban rifles, shotguns, and everything else.

So what, you may ask?

The *what* is that this will then be a fundamentally different country. Gun ownership is therapeutic and enjoyable and, for many, even practical. Personally speaking, I'm not ready to change the country in this way at least partially because I don't have the trust or confidence in our government to do so wisely or effectively. Nor do I trust the government to stop when they're ahead. Motorcycles will be banned next, then high heel shoes, and then whatever else the genius's think is needed. More laws, more rules, more government will never get my support.

Have you seen the recent news stories concerning the IRS? If you have a relative who has a tax bill, they have gone after people in the family who know nothing about the activities of the relative. Forget about asking if this is fair, this is not even legal. Then there is the story about the IRS again unfairly and illegally focusing attention on groups with opposing political views. How about stories of government agencies wrongly exercising easement confiscation to take privately owned property without any sort of legitimate public use for it. Such injustices can be corrected... but it'll take 10 years and a six figure legal bill.

The sensational gun crimes that we see in the news are tragic and too frequent, but the government is far too dysfunctional to solve this or any other serious social problem in America. This is my position... and until I see a better government in place I cannot even entertain the idea of giving them more power... or money. Let's start a thread about taxes :icon_biggrin:


Regardless of our opinions and the thoughts in our heads, you are ok with me; I enjoy your posts and if I knew you personally I'm sure I'd enjoy your company. I don't agree with baseless accusations or personal attacks against you. As I mentioned above, this is a highly charged and deep seated topic, which seems to always lead to comments that are beyond simple disagreement. I'm in a continuous exercise to increase my maturity and stay focused to the subject at hand when discussing heated topics... but I'm not Jesus... and I know I'll always have room for improvement. So if I said anything that offends you, I apologize too.

[bigbird]

IMO I think if handguns are banned, then it becomes easier to ban rifles, shotguns, and everything else.


Hasn't happened here.
Canada has no need to make rifles and shotguns restricted weapons.
Unlike handguns, their intended use is not to kill humans.

[srt8-in-largo]

Hasn't happened here.
Canada has no need to make rifles and shotguns restricted weapons.
Unlike handguns, their intended use is not to kill humans.

I think we are dancing around a difference between Canada and USA... and I may take some heat for this.

Canada, IMO, is much better at reasoning, thinking, and acting in an HONEST and LOGICAL manner. Here in America, I believe, we are far more prone to reason, think, and act based on skewed input from silliness such as political correctness, particularly in matters concerning race, and from other things like pure political gain.

We have a sick, twisted, and broken system. If handguns are banned, and our wonderful politicians see it as a successful law... they will assuredly move on to other "successful" laws if it means political brownie points, and REGARDLESS of any other consideration.

[Limoles]

Limoles,

Unfortunately the gun debate stirs deep emotions and probably subconscious fears in people, myself included. The emotion and fear, for me, come from the very real attempt by politicians to ban guns, and if a ban can't happen, then to make gun ownership so expensive and difficult that it becomes an in-situ ban. IMO I think if handguns are banned, then it becomes easier to ban rifles, shotguns, and everything else.

So what, you may ask?

The *what* is that this will then be a fundamentally different country. Gun ownership is therapeutic and enjoyable and, for many, even practical. Personally speaking, I'm not ready to change the country in this way at least partially because I don't have the trust or confidence in our government to do so wisely or effectively. Nor do I trust the government to stop when they're ahead. Motorcycles will be banned next, then high heel shoes, and then whatever else the genius's think is needed. More laws, more rules, more government will never get my support.

Have you seen the recent news stories concerning the IRS? If you have a relative who has a tax bill, they have gone after people in the family who know nothing about the activities of the relative. Forget about asking if this is fair, this is not even legal. Then there is the story about the IRS again unfairly and illegally focusing attention on groups with opposing political views. How about stories of government agencies wrongly exercising easement confiscation to take privately owned property without any sort of legitimate public use for it. Such injustices can be corrected... but it'll take 10 years and a six figure legal bill.

The sensational gun crimes that we see in the news are tragic and too frequent, but the government is far too dysfunctional to solve this or any other serious social problem in America. This is my position... and until I see a better government in place I cannot even entertain the idea of giving them more power... or money. Let's start a thread about taxes :icon_biggrin:


Regardless of our opinions and the thoughts in our heads, you are ok with me; I enjoy your posts and if I knew you personally I'm sure I'd enjoy your company. I don't agree with baseless accusations or personal attacks against you. As I mentioned above, this is a highly charged and deep seated topic, which seems to always lead to comments that are beyond simple disagreement. I'm in a continuous exercise to increase my maturity and stay focused to the subject at hand when discussing heated topics... but I'm not Jesus... and I know I'll always have room for improvement. So if I said anything that offends you, I apologize too.


Thank you George . This is an answer , which can build and empower anybody's senses . There are many things , which intelligent people could do , but to be able to accomplish any goal , the only cleverly pointed solutions can find the proper results .

One's I was having discussion about our government and on the very end of it , one guy asked the rest of us : "Who are those pricks in Washington and why they are destroying America" ? Then the other broke the silence , saying : "WE , yes we - we are responsible for giving them that power , because WE ELECTED THEM and now you can f&%$ yourself" . So , who is to blame ? Technically , this is our fault , when chosen leader happened to be ineffective , or simply wrong . This is leading me to ask everybody : Why do you selecting ( if so ) your candidate and what is convincing you to trust him ( her ) ?

In truly democratic system , elected people should be accountable for everything , but strategically played ping-pong game between Republicans and Democrats established already irreversible damages to our well being and in fact , for their only and their "friends" benefits . After all , majority of our society are left unhappy . Why is that and why is so ? The answer is not so simple , but since those two parties have monopole and liaison connections ( backed by huge donations from big corporations ), they do what they want , without showing any signs of care . Sims to me , we are swallowed into the one big , messy hole with no exit whatsoever .

So - coming back to our discussion based on my observations - crime is caused by : poverty , luck of properly functional family , lousy education , injustice and devastating influences of Hollywood . Think for second - What would you do , if you were born in ghetto , raised by single parent , struggling with no money , watching violent programs in TV ( which destroys remaining traces of intellectuality ) , being surrounded by friends with the same descriptions ? Having no skills , what kind of work could give you chances to buy home , car , or few weeks of vacation ?

And this is a core of my reflections brought to attention on the very beginning of our debate . Here is the root of crime , where naturally driven to it individuals having no , or little choices . For them to blend into the society and be productive is absolutelly impossible !!!

And now , why it is so connected to our government ? Well - They are responsible for many wrong doings , like outsourcing jobs to the foreign countries , they almost eliminated domestic production , lowered the bar of education , eventually creating perfect environment to nurture crime and force us to accept it . Very few avenues are left on the way to improve this situation .

Then what ? We established counter forces to fight with that crime and introduced separate segment of the motivated people , who are involved with it . Vicious circle . We and our elected officials created this situation and ironically , trying now to eliminate it . Where are the winners and what's the sense of all of it ?

There is only way to reverse this situation - we need more responsible LEADERS , who will serve us , not themselves .

[taxfree4]

You shouldn't allow anybody to bust your ass or get hurt in the way you afraid to be . You are my neighbor and it's my obligation to defend every inch of your integrity . The only problem is , I don't know , how to split it for micro pieces , but at least you can count on me . Finally the gorgeous weather let us to enjoy riding and I hope wind will blow away past winter stagnation . I'm facing now Cape May for charity event , dedicated for children affected with cancer . That's like almost epidemy among these little defenseless creatures and it's a tragedy of modern times , tearing my heart so bad .

I would join you but my bike's still in the dealer, repaired, waiting for Nationwide, her insurance broker, to send the check. They've been yanking my chain for 2 weeks, and not in a good way.

[53driver]

One's I was having discussion about our government and on the very end of it , one guy asked the rest of us : "Who are those pricks in Washington and why they are destroying America" ? Then the other broke the silence , saying : "WE , yes we - we are responsible for giving them that power , because WE ELECTED THEM and now you can f&%$ yourself" . So , who is to blame ? Technically , this is our fault , when chosen leader happened to be ineffective , or simply wrong . This is leading me to ask everybody : Why do you selecting ( if so ) your candidate and what is convincing you to trust him ( her ) ?

In truly democratic system , elected people should be accountable for everything , but strategically played ping-pong game between Republicans and Democrats established already irreversible damages to our well being and in fact , for their only and their "friends" benefits . After all , majority of our society are left unhappy . Why is that and why is so ? The answer is not so simple , but since those two parties have monopole and liaison connections ( backed by huge donations from big corporations ), they do what they want , without showing any signs of care . Sims to me , we are swallowed into the one big , messy hole with no exit whatsoever .

So - coming back to our discussion based on my observations - crime is caused by : poverty , luck of properly functional family , lousy education , injustice and devastating influences of Hollywood . Think for second - What would you do , if you were born in ghetto , raised by single parent , struggling with no money , watching violent programs in TV ( which destroys remaining traces of intellectuality ) , being surrounded by friends with the same descriptions ? Having no skills , what kind of work could give you chances to buy home , car , or few weeks of vacation ?

And this is a core of my reflections brought to attention on the very beginning of our debate . Here is the root of crime , where naturally driven to it individuals having no , or little choices . For them to blend into the society and be productive is absolutelly impossible !!!

And now , why it is so connected to our government ? Well - They are responsible for many wrong doings , like outsourcing jobs to the foreign countries , they almost eliminated domestic production , lowered the bar of education , eventually creating perfect environment to nurture crime and force us to accept it . Very few avenues are left on the way to improve this situation .

Then what ? We established counter forces to fight with that crime and introduced separate segment of the motivated people , who are involved with it . Vicious circle . We and our elected officials created this situation and ironically , trying now to eliminate it . Where are the winners and what's the sense of all of it ?

There is only way to reverse this situation - we need more responsible LEADERS , who will serve us , not themselves .

+1.

[bigbird]

I think we are dancing around a difference between Canada and USA... and I may take some heat for this.

Canada, IMO, is much better at reasoning, thinking, and acting in an HONEST and LOGICAL manner. Here in America, I believe, we are far more prone to reason, think, and act based on skewed input from silliness such as political correctness, particularly in matters concerning race, and from other things like pure political gain.

We have a sick, twisted, and broken system. If handguns are banned, and our wonderful politicians see it as a successful law... they will assuredly move on to other "successful" laws if it means political brownie points, and REGARDLESS of any other consideration.

I have a cousin who lives in California, Santa Monica to be exact. He was born a US citizen. Every time I talk to him, he goes on a tirade about the ineptness and disconnection of local, state, and federal gov't from the citizenry who elected them.

You can't please all of the people all of the time, but I can say the vast majority of our laws make sense and are well thought out. When I think of the inconsistencies with your legal and penal system, it's no wonder that your prisons are overflowing from some bizarre sentences for some really petty crimes.

I have to comment on two issues that really separate your country from ours. They involve rights and freedoms. One, as I've beaten to death, is the handgun thing. In reality, an outright ban on handguns is pie in the sky. I don't think the citizenry or legal system would let it happen. It's part of your heritage and makeup.

The other is your freedom and rights on the road. It is totally bizarre to me in that some parts of the US you can actually consume alcoholic beverages while driving, as long as you are not at or over predefined blood-alcohol limits. If that doesn't encourage impaired driving, then allowing distracted driving (mobile phone use) certainly does. In Canada, it is illegal to consume alcoholic beverages while driving, and illegal to talk and or text with handheld devices while driving. Hands free devices are allowed.
How your citizenry can let those abuses of common sense continue to happen totally blows me away.
I see one cause of your legal and penal systems being so messed up being election of those officials. To me it's weird that a sheriff or police chief or warden would be elected by the masses. What the hell do you or I know about the requirements of law enforcement, unless you are an expert in that field? Electing those officials only opens up the system to corruption. Our police chiefs are hired through processes similar to private corporations; interviews, background checks, references, with some public input from non partisan citizen board members. The experts look after those responsibilities, not the masses. They are all accountable.

Canada is certainly not perfect and certainly not a better country than the US. It is only different.

[srt8-in-largo]

...

There is only way to reverse this situation - we need more responsible LEADERS , who will serve us , not themselves .

Did I say we have a sick, twisted, and broken system? :icon_biggrin: Here's a good example...

We do in fact have GOOD, HONEST, and SMART people with enough integrity and altruism to make this a better country. But elected offices have become so COVETED by the powers seeking to maintain political control that, if you don't agree or kowtow to them, they will DESTROY you. This keeps the people who can actually fix problems on the sidelines, and the only fools running for office are the fools that we see there today.

Further, journalism has become a mockery of what it once was and instead of simply reporting events factually as they occur, they now interject themselves into stories and add bias, untruths, and inaccuracies... they have become tools of the political machine and make it easy for good people to be fearful of running for office.



I have a cousin who lives in California, Santa Monica to be exact. He was born a US citizen. Every time I talk to him, he goes on a tirade about the ineptness and disconnection of local, state, and federal gov't from the citizenry who elected them.

You can't please all of the people all of the time, but I can say the vast majority of our laws make sense and are well thought out. When I think of the inconsistencies with your legal and penal system, it's no wonder that your prisons are overflowing from some bizarre sentences for some really petty crimes.

I have to comment on two issues that really separate your country from ours. They involve rights and freedoms. One, as I've beaten to death, is the handgun thing. In reality, an outright ban on handguns is pie in the sky. I don't think the citizenry or legal system would let it happen. It's part of your heritage and makeup.

The other is your freedom and rights on the road. It is totally bizarre to me in that some parts of the US you can actually consume alcoholic beverages while driving, as long as you are not at or over predefined blood-alcohol limits. If that doesn't encourage impaired driving, then allowing distracted driving (mobile phone use) certainly does. In Canada, it is illegal to consume alcoholic beverages while driving, and illegal to talk and or text with handheld devices while driving. Hands free devices are allowed.
How your citizenry can let those abuses of common sense continue to happen totally blows me away.
I see one cause of your legal and penal systems being so messed up being election of those officials. To me it's weird that a sheriff or police chief or warden would be elected by the masses. What the hell do you or I know about the requirements of law enforcement, unless you are an expert in that field? Electing those officials only opens up the system to corruption. Our police chiefs are hired through processes similar to private corporations; interviews, background checks, references, with some public input from non partisan citizen board members. The experts look after those responsibilities, not the masses. They are all accountable.

Canada is certainly not perfect and certainly not a better country than the US. It is only different.

For the most part, states are free to govern themselves... and this is both a blessing and a curse. Many people have crossed state lines without understanding the carry laws of that state... and have been arrested, convicted, and sentenced to long prison terms for doing nothing more than what is perfectly legal in their home state. This is happening to decent law-abiding people. This is the unwise and ineffective creation of too many gun laws. We need coherency and consistency but that can only happen with a Federal law... and having these fools in office create far-reaching, sweeping new laws scares the bejeebers outta me.

I don't have an answer to all the problems... except to say that supporting and encouraging the fools currently running the madhouse is not it.

[Limoles]

Yes indeed - It is a battle between right and wrong . For that reason, we desperately need to be active and stand on principles of our Constitution . Otherwise, we abdicate power to those whose ideas are entirely destructive.

What about voting for INDEPENDENT candidates ? Are we afraid of NEEDED REFORMS ? Only WE can brake habitual and senseless tradition , which uphold rusted and corrupted system .

At least give them chances ! I don't buy argument - "It will never happened" . IT MUST HAPPENED !

[fxdl2051]

CNN is simple propagandistic social engineering in it's most blatant, exploitive and fear mongering form. I wouldn't quote their hysteria whipping, disempowering tripe for anything even if it's pseudo news. Arms are not the problem, a culture of extreme violence inflamed by media interests is. I hate to even reply to posts like this since I'm here to forget about the garbage that passes for contemporary society at least for a few minutes, but well this got my goat since it's precisely the sort of sensationalism that justifies eviscerating the Constitution. While I prefer to think of myself as a left wing, socialist, commie Democrat, even I have my limits beyond which my gullibility is exhausted and the anti gun movement with its covert agenda of obliterating the right to bear arms has more to do with disarming America than rendering it a safer more civilized society.

[srt8-in-largo]

CNN lost me when they kept Fareed Zakaria after he was busted for plagiarism.

I wouldn't be surprised if Brian Williams becomes a CNN "analyst" now.

[Navvet]

Bad, Bad CONCEALED PERMIT HOLDER !!!! Stopping that guy from committing mass murder .....

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/04/20/concealed-permit-holder-stops-attempted-mass-shooting-in-chicago/

On Friday, an Uber driver with a concealed carry permit thwarted an attempted mass shooting by pulling his own weapon and shooting a gunman who had opened fire in Chicago’s Logan Square.

Illinois Assistant State’s Attorney Barry Quinn verified that the driver “had a concealed-carry permit and acted in the defense of himself and others.”

According to the Chicago Tribune, the driver was watching “a group of people” walk in front of his car on North Milwaukee Avenue just before midnight when 22-year-old Everardo Custodio allegedly “began firing into the crowd.” The Uber driver pulled his own gun and “fired six shots at Custodio,” wounding him in “the shin, thigh, and lower back.”

The attempted mass shooting ended with no one other Custodio injured.

The Chicago Sun Times reported that the Uber driver had dropped off a passenger minutes before Custodio allegedly began shooting. The Times contacted Uber about the incident and they simply said “the company requires all its drivers to abide by local, state and federal laws pertaining to transporting firearms in vehicles.”

Breitbart News previously reported on a March 22 incident in which a concealed carry permit holder entered a Philadelphia barbershop to stop an attempted mass shooting in progress.

In that inciden,t a 40-year-old man began randomly firing at patrons inside the barbershop and was stopped when the concealed carry permit holder heard gunfire, ran into the shop, and shot the would-be mass shooter in the chest, killing him. No one else was harmed.

Follow AWR Hawkins on Twitter: @AWRHawkins. Reach him directly at awrhawkins@breitbart.com.