I have a therory on the low oil in the rear diff...........

[BIGLRY]

And it goes like this, mother Honda has planned it that way:yikes:......What you say? Now bare with me on this as I tell you about something that has happened to a good friend of mine called Dale. Now Dale owns a small local boat sales and marine supply biz, he sells about 25 expensive ski boats a year along with other boats(the brand don't matter).
Now every time he sells one of these ski boats he has to install a drain plug in the rear transom at his expense, the boat manufacture does not supply the drain plug. Now this has been going on for some years and one day he is at the ski boat manufacture's plant and has a chance to talk to the owner of the company and politely ask him why the manufacture can't supply this $5.00 drain plug since he does buy 25 of these expensive ski boat each year and it would be cheap to do so. Here is what the boat manufacture told him, "you sell your 25 boats a year and I sell 7,500 boats a year around the world so it would cost me $37,500 in drain plugs while it cost you $125 for your 25 drain plugs and with the $37,500 I save by not supplying the drain plugs I give my employees a weekend vacation in Hawaii every year".

Now what does this has to do with Honda shorting the oil in the rear diff? Well look at it this way, if Honda shorts each rear diff 2 oz of oil on (a number I came up with for all shaft driven MC Honda makes and sells in north America) approximately 250,000 shaft driven MC each year around the world, that is a savings of 7,812.5 gallons of rear diff oil not needed. Now if Honda's initial "check list" includes checking the rear diff and every dealer is checking the rear diff and topping it off upon the initial set up Honda is saving a lot of money in rear diff oil and passing the cost off to the dealers, which is a very small amount to the dealers(2 oz per bike).

Yea, I know this sounds like a big conspiracy theory on Hondas part with Honda figuring the dealers will catch it and top them off, but then the dealers, trying to cut corners on "set up" time & charges are skipping this step? We the ultimate consumer are paying the price.........
I mean why else are we seeing so many rear diff a few oz. low? I wonder if the same thing is being seen on other models of shaft driven/rear diff Hondas? Oh and by the way mine was full to the top, but I bought it from a H-D/Honda dealer who knows how to check for low oil:icon_mrgreen:
Food for thought. :301:

[wiggy]

That sounds pretty logical, BIGLRY. But the way I see it is the Dealers who are catching it should be bitching to Mother Honda.

And for us consumers who have to follow up on the dealers not checking it makes me ask, "What are we paying dealer prep for?"

[jkelley]

Anything is possible I guess, but my suspicion would be laziness on all fronts?

[mrhatch]

Good theory Larry, by the way I clicked on your ring finders link and after looking at the picture from your may recovery, I see why they call you Big Larry!

R
Mike

[Hornblower]

Yep, Larry, I think you got it right. It's all about money. I have no doubt that was also behind the decision to skip clear coating on the paint :icon_frown:. I really wish Honda would start doing on their bikes what they do on their cars and that is to offer factory upgrades or "packages". Wouldn't it be cool if they offered packages like performance, comfort, convenience, etc.?

[stevenolts]

I wish they would put good clear cote on their cars. I have a 99 Black Honda Accord EX and the clear coat has almost completely come off the car. I have a 2001 Black Acura TL Type S that is starting to loose its clear coat. I have a 2013 Black F6B that came with scratches and bad (very easy to scuff or scratch) paint.

Is this a black car thing with the heat / is it my fault because it is not in the garage or waxed enough? The F6B is always in the garage and I use the liquid glass on it.

I now have 3 Honda's black / all with bad paint. The worst thing is I still love them all.
Steve

[wjduke]

One recourse dealers have is to kick back the cost on a warranty, plus labor. That might cut into their scheme a bit.

[BIGLRY]

One recourse dealers have is to kick back the cost on a warranty, plus labor. That might cut into their scheme a bit.True, but how many rear diff have gone south due to no or low oil. Yes there is one reported here that was caught by the dealer, but apparently it is an interference issue not low or no oil. So there is no kickback that I can see and if they don't leak any oil they will run fine an oz or two low or at lest until the first service IMO.

Now on the other hand if Honda starts getting a lot or significant amount of rear diff failures and it is proven to be from low or no oil then maybe procedures at the manufacture's plant will change. I'm sure we all have seen the white paint on all critical fastners on the bike which are part of Honda's quality control to be sure everything is torqued properly, why don't they mark the rear diff fill cap the same way to indicated it is full?:shrug:
Yea, sadly I do believe it all boils down to the bottom line.....MONEY and not caring about customer satifaction! :icon_frown:

[BIGLRY]

Anything is possible I guess, but my suspicion would be laziness on all fronts?Yep, no doubt about that too.:icon_evil:

[lloydmoore1]

One thing is for sure and that is that Larry's mind never has any down time. You keep this site pretty interesting at all times and I always look forward to your posts.
thanks

[shooter]

Larry , I think you have too much time on your hands. That was a reach right there. You need to ride more.:joke:

[Dirtstiff's F6B]

My wag is they source the final drives from another company and that company is either restricted on how much of that type of fluid can be shipped and or, they just put in a minimal amount to save them money? They probably have a very low failure rate. And, Honda figures they will catch it at first service. That's my guess..

[BIGLRY]

Larry , I think you have too much time on your hands. That was a reach right there. You need to ride more.:joke:Sure it was a reach, but it was something that has been bugging me and I just needed to look at it in another way Hehe which I did.:duck:
I rode 92 miles this AM for breakfast in Santa Barbara and 92 back to home for lunch, got my new Rune picked up and shipped from North Port AL. will have it in 10 days so moving things in shop the rest of the day getting ready. I try and ride every day. At my age there is not enough time.:banghead:

[BIGLRY]

My wag is they source the final drives from another company and that company is either restricted on how much of that type of fluid can be shipped and or, they just put in a minimal amount to save them money? Honda figures they will catch it at first service. That's my guess..And a damn good guess as any IMO:yes:

[flat6bagger]

Honda may be doing this and thinking the dealerships are actually adding the other 2 ozs.
I was one of the lucky ones that the dealer actually checked mine during pre delivery.
By the posts complaining about the oil being low, a dealer actually checking it and topping it off must be a rarity.

Doug

[seadog]

Sure it was a reach, but it was something that has been bugging me and I just needed to look at it in another way Hehe which I did.:duck:
I rode 92 miles this AM for breakfast in Santa Barbara and 92 back to home for lunch, got my new Rune picked up and shipped from North Port AL. will have it in 10 days so moving things in shop the rest of the day getting ready. I try and ride every day. At my age there is not enough time.:banghead:

The way I look at it Larry is there is always time for a ride until the last one! Its getting closer by the minute for us old guys. I live each day like its my last one! One day I will get it right.

[bigdew]

I just got my bike back from its 8,000 mile service and my rear diff was over 2oz low. Defiantly an issue at hand.

[F6bisnext]

I recently picked up a 2013 with 2,700 miles on it and decided to check the rear diff oil based on the comments on this thread and I was over an ounce low!! Thanks for the tips. Also love the tip of using the two stroke measuring tool from Walmart and some plastic piping to fill the oil. Made it possible.

[Fla_rider]

See Larry I don't see it that way. The dealer most likely would pay the few buck more for the boat to come complete. This way he doesn't have to send an employee to BoatUS or Sailorman's every time he needs a plug. Plus travel expenses. The manufacturer has greater buying power. He could buy them in bulk at less than the dealer can and can offset the the difference in the cost of the boat. What's next a steering wheel? Every company has a customer, to the boat manufacturer it is the dealer, the dealer's customer is the boat purchaser. Satisfying your customers will keep them coming back. Sure it sounds nice for the employees vacation but how many employees can really go to Hawaii for $35k, the plane ticket alone is over $600. It makes me wonder what other things the manufacturer shorted the dealer to get a vacation. Make and sell a good product and the world will come.

[flat6bagger]

F6Bisnext,
"Also love the tip of using the two stroke measuring tool from Walmart "
I must have missed this.
What are you talking about?

Doug

[Steve 0080]

Money, sex and water, rule the world...EVERTHING comes back to one of these !!!


P.S. Larry, I agree. I stated in one of the beginning threads that I have never heard of a rear end failure early on, some have installed a new one after 125K miles, but how many folks does that effect.

* Due to lack of oil.

[BIGLRY]

See Larry I don't see it that way. The dealer most likely would pay the few buck more for the boat to come complete. This way he doesn't have to send an employee to BoatUS or Sailorman's every time he needs a plug. Plus travel expenses. The manufacturer has greater buying power. He could buy them in bulk at less than the dealer can and can offset the the difference in the cost of the boat. What's next a steering wheel? Every company has a customer, to the boat manufacturer it is the dealer, the dealer's customer is the boat purchaser. Satisfying your customers will keep them coming back. Sure it sounds nice for the employees vacation but how many employees can really go to Hawaii for $35k, the plane ticket alone is over $600. It makes me wonder what other things the manufacturer shorted the dealer to get a vacation. Make and sell a good product and the world will come.

Oh, the boat story is true and the boat manufacture owned two condos on the big island of Hawaii that they all stayed at. I know it as fact as my late wife used to babysit some of the employee's dogs & cats while they were on vacation each year (manufacturing plant was about 40 miles north of me).
I do agree with you that it would create a better relationship between the manufacture and his dealer network, but that was the reason he gave as to why he did not supply the drain plug on the boats he sold and that is what got me to thinking "What IF" about the commonly low rear diff oil we are hearing about on just this forum. How many other Honda MC have low oil right from the factory we never hear about?:shrug:
Just a theory and nothing more.:icon_lol:

"It makes me wonder what other things the manufacturer shorted the dealer to get a vacation" Good question which I can't answer.:icon_biggrin:

[BIGLRY]

Money, sex and water, rule the world...EVERTHING comes back to one of these !!!


P.S. Larry, I agree. I stated in one of the beginning threads that I have never heard of a rear end failure early on, some have installed a new one after 125K miles, but how many folks does that effect.

* Due to lack of oil.
As we all know Steve there are three things you can NEVER take away from Americans and that is Booz, Sex & Weekends. Funny how Sex is always in there somewhere.:icon_lol:

[unsub]

There's PDI = pre delivery [to the customer] inspection. Always charged to the customer. Usually under the dealer ruse of ensuring the vehicle is washed and gassed up, all bolts tightened, paper work etc...

and then there's...

PDI = post delivery inspection. Paid to the dealer in some form or another by the manufacturer upon delivery of each vehicle to the dealer by the manufacturer. Why? Because this is the last point of quality control the manufacturer has before a vehicle is delivered to the customer. The manufacturer depends on the dealer for the servicing and to make sure the vehicle is defect free. The PDI fee is supposed to cover the dealers employee cost for time for the "inspection". Now often built into the MSRP so the customer may not see it as such.

The PDI scam was created by the dealer long ago to find a way to get paid twice for what should be a cost bourn by the manufacturer, not by the customer. It's not unusual for the "PDI" costs to be the first $$ a dealer will "knock off the price" for the customer. After all, the manufacturer has this covered anyway.

So back to the theory of why Honda might be shorting the dealer on drive oil. Well, anythings possible, however the question remains: Is Honda willing to risk their reputation on a relatively small savings? Or, possibly they are depending on the dealer, after all they are paying the dealer PDI.

:shrug:

[BIGLRY]

There's PDI = pre delivery [to the customer] inspection. Always charged to the customer. Usually under the dealer ruse of ensuring the vehicle is washed and gassed up, all bolts tightened, paper work etc...

and then there's...

PDI = post delivery inspection. Paid to the dealer in some form or another by the manufacturer upon delivery of each vehicle to the dealer by the manufacturer. Why? Because this is the last point of quality control the manufacturer has before a vehicle is delivered to the customer. The manufacturer depends on the dealer for the servicing and to make sure the vehicle is defect free. The PDI fee is supposed to cover the dealers employee cost for time for the "inspection". Now often built into the MSRP so the customer may not see it as such.

The PDI scam was created by the dealer long ago to find a way to get paid twice for what should be a cost bourn by the manufacturer, not by the customer. It's not unusual for the "PDI" costs to be the first $$ a dealer will "knock off the price" for the customer. After all, the manufacturer has this covered anyway.

So back to the theory of why Honda might be shorting the dealer on drive oil. Well, anythings possible, however the question remains: Is Honda willing to risk their reputation on a relatively small savings? Or, possibly they are depending on the dealer, after all they are paying the dealer PDI.

:shrug::icon_rolleyes:Humm....
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3340/3519464264_5242fa4d79.jpg?v=0

[Donncat]

Oh I don't know about the PDI being a scam. I sell construction equipment and of course we do a Pre Delivery Inspection and the shop needs to collect from somebody for it. The MFG doesn't pay a dealer to do it, it's the dealers responsibility. And I submit that if in a discount comes by throwing it out he just ate it. It is a cost just like freight and cost of the unit. Certainly if he threw it out you wouldn't want him to skip in the 1st place would you? Where I work we can't generate a Delivery Report until we submit the Arrival Report/PDI. Its a cost that someone pays and it is the consumer. Just my 2 cents. :lolup: