Is HARLEY DAVIDSON in financial trouble?

[Phantom]

Harley …. In Trouble ? :shock:

http://twistedthrottlelifestyle.com/2016/02/14/harley-no-longer-king-company-in-trouble/

[glryder98]

Excellent article, Phantom. I would hate to see HD go the way of Indian MC. Harley is still an American tradition and it's still the first bike people think of when they see bikers. I put a lot of miles on Harleys during the 70's and 80's. One day I may even uncover my old pan head and get it running. (even though I don't think I can kick that thing to life!)

[F6B1911]

If the HD emblem was on a Fast Black water-cooled 1832cc power plant with a shaft drive, they'd run 3 shifts just to keep up with the demand.
I'd buy one.

[willtill]

Good article. But....

Are you a biker, or a motorcycle enthusiast?

[Steve 0080]

As far as I know H.D. still has 40% of the market. People are fighting to get in the door to buy one... They are fine, there are a lot of folks who love
100 year old tech !!!

Wan't to see it in action, go by the H.D. shop while at Daytona... people are bending over backwards to hand them money and pushing folks out of the way on the floor !

[53driver]

HD stock value has steadily decreased from mid $60s to $40 over the last year.
Yes, I own some.
Yes, they need to get back to basics.
Sooner than later if they are to enjoy their heritage namesake prosperity.

[taxfree4]

The great thing about America is if you make a shitty product the public will let you know, in this case - eventually. After years of overpriced under-performing motorcycles, parts, service, merchandise, arrogant dealers, terrible customer service, helpless helpline support - the public, finally, is waking up. It's a healthy thing in commerce and either you trim, improve, perform and conform or you're out. It may be too late or they may look for a bailout from the government, like Chrysler, or if Trump gets in a heavy tariff on imports. Either way, like AMC, if the product sucks it should just go away to the rust pile of history. I can't wait to dump this 1200 for a Scout, except no one is buying.

[SimonTemplar]

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[gandydancer]

Talked to a salesman from one of the HD Shops in Dallas last month at the Bike Show--he admitted that sales were down due mainly to Victory and Indian--both are running better motors with more HP at the same price or couple of thousand cheaper---very few of the real old school Bikers can throw down 30,000 or 40,000 for a CVO model--changes need to be made, but, Harley has come a long way over the last few years--they are not bad bikes at all---I came back to Honda mainly for the power of the "Wing" motor---believe it is the best motor in any motorcycle being made in today`s market---HD needs to drop prices and pay a bit more attention to little things, like oil over blow thru the air cleaner---believe they will be alright and to answer another question, I love all bikes--and am a Biker---49 years riding and still on two wheels----

[Cool Hand Luke]

I agree with all above posts. Also, thank you Phantom for posting an interesting article.

In my opinion, HD is long way from being done. Things fluctuate in business anyway. Here is the chart showing HD's income over the past few years:

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I think their bikes are better in quality now then possibly ever before. Their prices are fairly high for a middle class and blue collar Americans, which is why HD's demographic has been shifting to older wealthier groups over the decades. Right now, they really market to people 45 and over.

The problem for HD is that American demographics are changing. Next decade or two will give them much trouble as it is expected to be a drop in people 45 and over, due to baby boomers aging. In fact, one can argue that baby boomers have kept HD in business for a long time. This generation grew up seeing their parents riding HD's, so when older and able they also wanted to ride HD's due to nostalgia. Baby boomers are also a wealthy generation, willing to spend the kind of money HD was asking, and also buying into the whole 'HD lifestyle'. However, as baby boomers age past their riding ability HD will be in trouble.

Generation X and Y kids don't seem to have the same nostalgia towards HD. If they like to ride two wheels than any brand would do. They don't care as much for an HD biker image and do not have the money that HD is asking for their touring bikes. In fact, they are more likely to have started on sport bikes.

HD knows this, their management is not stupid. That is why they are bringing in the Street line of bikes, which are much cheaper and decent performing bikes. The quality is not the same, but all that can be fixed thru HD's accessories and aftermarket. It remains to be seen if this strategy will work out.

Here is anoher great article strictly from investors point of view:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/moneybuilder/2013/11/13/harley-davidsons-downfall-baby-boomer-demographics/#4f8cb51b28ef

Of course there is more competition today especially from Polaris. I am a good example of this. I had 2 HD's, Road King and VRod Muscle, and now I also ride Victory Cross Country (in addition to F6B, of course.) I really enjoy Victory's performance and comfort. I think that Polaris is going to continue to chip away HD's cruiser market share as they grow their two brands. Hopefully this competition will result in more choices for us and better, more affordable bikes.

[unsub]

I remember reading an article years ago, that the development of the Yamaha Virago, and subsequent Japanese V twins unwittingly rekindled the Harley brand. It seems the semi retired and the older generation with disposable income and the desire to ride witnessed the introduction of Japanese V twins and that triggered Harley nostalgia. So, when making the decision to buy another motorcycle many decided to buy the brand instead of the knock off. As I understand it Harley capitalized on that nostalgia and created the beginnings of the pseudo bad boy [aka posers] club of riders that exist today. Many of whom are now too old and stiff to throw a leg over the bike and be able to sustain even a 100 miles of the ride without 800mg of naproxen, let alone plunk down 20k for a new one.

Instead of relying on accessorizing the rider maybe they should have focused on building a quality product.:shrug:
Perhaps that will be HD's saving grace. Drop Motorcycle manufacturing and focus on what they're good at. Accessories and clothing..???

I don't see Victory / Indian / Polaris or whatever iteration of that V motor they make as even being a contender in the void Harley will leave behind....again.

[Retired Army]

Harley only produces motorcycles, Honda produces everything to include luxury jet air planes. Do the math.

[stroguy]

Harley only produces motorcycles, Honda produces everything to include luxury jet air planes. Do the math.

A Harley bi-plane. That'd be cool to see.

[coffee_weasle]

A Harley bi-plane. That'd be cool to see.

not me :lolup:

[willtill]

A Harley bi-plane. That'd be cool to see.

It would probably drip oil while in flight; just like bird poop

[Bob Penn]

HMMMMM. seems like I've seen this movie before. I think I even participated when AMF bailed out HD. I kind of remember plunking down my hard earned cash to make oil stains on my garage floor (I still haven't fully gotten over that yet)! I must say though it gave me a lot of wrenching experience. But it cured me of any favorable HD image.
Not to worry the company will survive. Have you noticed that walking into most bike show rooms today you see more helmets and other forms of clothing then you see bike parts and accessories. Seems there is a lot of interest in that market. Just ask HD. In fact just the other day here on this very site I almost started a thread commenting on the fact that almost 50% of the threads on the home site were about what are your favorite pants, shoes, and helmets.
Biking is a fad. Like most fads it blossoms for a few years and then it wilts for a few years. Most bikers are riding bikes today that are less than 5 years old with relatively low mileage. So why are they going to buy a new bike especially when they still haven't paid off the loan (with interest adding expense) that was necessary to buy a $30 k bike!
I bought my F6 this past year because my old girl had almost 80k miles on her and when I heard the price I could steel the B for it was a no brainier. I had been looking for a replacement for 2 years but the $30 k price tag on the bike I wanted was ridiculous! As far as I was concerned pound for pound I could buy a Ford 4x4 pick-up for 75% less!
Is HD an American company? I'd like to see a stock holders residence breakdown on that before I comment.

[opas ride]

The great thing about America is if you make a shitty product the public will let you know, in this case - eventually. After years of overpriced under-performing motorcycles, parts, service, merchandise, arrogant dealers, terrible customer service, helpless helpline support - the public, finally, is waking up. It's a healthy thing in commerce and either you trim, improve, perform and conform or you're out. It may be too late or they may look for a bailout from the government, like Chrysler, or if Trump gets in a heavy tariff on imports. Either way, like AMC, if the product sucks it should just go away to the rust pile of history. I can't wait to dump this 1200 for a Scout, except no one is buying.

+1 on this post...Any manufacturer cannot continue forever making obsolete products with inferior quality and survive in todays world...Look what happened to the Domestic car companies until they woke up and feared the Japanese were taking over the market....No bike is perfect, but as long as the "good old boys" continue to believe in the Harley "mystique" the company will live on with its same old stuff......JMHO

[Greg O]

My previous 2 bikes were Harleys and didn't have one bit of problems with them. I do agree that Harley needs to come in to the 21 century. Harley needs to put a true water cooled reliable engine in their bikes,an engine that should be virtually maintenance free for 100,000 miles. If they would have had one out when I bought the 6, I would have bought the Harley.

[3Chief]

I do agree that Harley needs to come in to the 21 century. Harley needs to put a true water cooled reliable engine in their bikes,an engine that should be virtually maintenance free for 100,000 miles. If they would have had one out when I bought the 6, I would have bought the Harley.

Ditto that and I want shaft drive too...When they come out with a reliable water cooled shaft driven bike I'll look at one. They've had the loyalty of their customer's for years regardless of the quality of their product. People are finally tired of paying premium price for an inferior product. When I bought my VTX in 07 I had originally wanted to get an HD...glad I didn't. I put 62K on the bike before I had any issues and the first one was a fork seal...A guy I work with has one of the CVO's? Whatever it is, 20K and the motor grenaded HD denied the warranty. I know several other HD owners that have had to get lawyers involved to get warranty/lemon issues taken care of. Why bother?

[Greg O]

At one time several years back. I heard that Harley was working with Porche to develope a water cooled engine, now I don't know if Porche was evolved in the VROD engine development or not.

[drifter]

Polaris stock went from $158 down to $86 over the last year. I wanted to trade my 2005 victory vegas in on a 2014 Indian chieftain. The dealers where charging more for an indian quick release trunk then they would give me for my victory.Went to test ride a 2013 F6B was hooked when i got to third gear. Got a great deal on the F6B ,kept my Victory and saved$4500. My friend has a 2008 Road King with 58000 miles runs great with the proper maintenance .

[pdxstriper]

My previous 2 bikes were Harleys and didn't have one bit of problems with them. I do agree that Harley needs to come in to the 21 century. Harley needs to put a true water cooled reliable engine in their bikes,an engine that should be virtually maintenance free for 100,000 miles. If they would have had one out when I bought the 6, I would have bought the Harley.

Wow i Really like that tagline:


Harley Davidson
'obsolete products with inferior technology'


Nice ring to it! Truth in advertising too!

[Cool Hand Luke]

At one time several years back. I heard that Harley was working with Porche to develope a water cooled engine, now I don't know if Porche was evolved in the VROD engine development or not.

I do, and yes, Porsche has developed the V Rod engine for HD. In fact, HD has a long history of working with Porsche. Back in the AMF days Porsche developed a V Four engine for HD. Harley management at that time was strongly considering abandoning a V Twin tech for V Four. It was a much more advanced engine at the time, and if you remember the competition was going in the V4 direction as well, such as Honda Magna, Suzuki Madeira, Yamaha Venture etc.

The reason it didn't happen was money. As the HD faithfull bought HD back from AMF, they had no money to to continue to develop and implement a completely new platform. They also didn't want to rock the boat too much. So, they updated the old Shovelhead with a good helping from Porsche (again) and the Evo was born, which in turn saved HD's ass, and the V4 was shelved. Today can be seen on display at HD's Museum.

So, under the guidance of Willie G. Davidson, HD again resorted to Porsche for V Rod engine. People forget that HD had a fully powerful, water cooled and reliable engine for over a decade. The reason is probably HD's corporate mindset of not putting this wonderful powerplant into a touring oriented mount. In my opinion, that was a big mistake.

I owned one of these bikes. It was wonderful to ride, very powerful with little vibration and super reliable. It would have been a perfect choice for a sport touring mount but alas, HD only makes cruisers.

[jm21ddd15]

Yes sir. That engine went in the V-Rod, the Street Rod, The Night Rod, etc. It is/was a great engine! Harley should have put that motor into some of their other bikes. Too bad, a missed opportunity. :icon_doh:

[F6Dave]

Yes sir. That engine went in the V-Rod, the Street Rod, The Night Rod, etc. It is/was a great engine! Harley should have put that motor into some of their other bikes. Too bad, a missed opportunity. :icon_doh:

I always thought the V-Rod engine would have been great in the Buell. Kind of like an American answer to Ducati.

[Dirtstiff's F6B]

True or untrue, HD has the ability to reinvent itself when the times have affected sales. Trouble sometimes is opportunity.

[shooter]

They have a captive audience. Most HD owners are brainwashed. They think its the only brand worthy of their money. They scoff at the idea of owning a Honda. Out of the blue , wife asks me tonight , "why do people think they have to buy a Harley"? I had to think about it for a minute. I think its peer pressure. And since most people are followers , they do what is expected instead of making a decision based on facts.

[53driver]

They have a captive audience. Most HD owners are brainwashed. They think its the only brand worthy of their money. They scoff at the idea of owning a Honda. Out of the blue , wife asks me tonight , "why do people think they have to buy a Harley"? I had to think about it for a minute. I think its peer pressure. And since most people are followers , they do what is expected instead of making a decision based on facts.

Peer pressure. BINGO!

[wjduke]

They have a captive audience. Most HD owners are brainwashed. They think its the only brand worthy of their money. They scoff at the idea of owning a Honda. Out of the blue , wife asks me tonight , "why do people think they have to buy a Harley"? I had to think about it for a minute. I think its peer pressure. And since most people are followers , they do what is expected instead of making a decision based on facts.


Peer pressure. BINGO!

One thing I'm proud of in my life is that I made my own decisions. (some good, some bad) Never smoked, plenty of peer pressure there. A ton of things along the way. You should have heard my friend on me to get a HD. He's a ball buster on top of it. His cousin runs the HD dealership on the Cape. I looked at them, Indian and the 6. All he talked about was the plastic. Well, he surprised everyone and switched to an Indian. This summer, he will try my bike and I want to hear what he says after the ride.

[Jimmytee]

Harley isn't going anywhere. Just because sales are down, doesn't mean they are in trouble, just means the market has been adjusting and will always adjust. I'd be more worried about the future of Honda's MC lineup with recent year's offerings.

I've said before to many a Harley riding friend that if Harley would manufacture something equivalent to a bike like my F6B ,I could possibly be a Harley customer. I like Honda, but if it were not for the flat 6 engine, I'd be riding something else.

[shooter]

I've said this before. I don't care if you ride an HD. Just don't look down your nose at me and tell me I'm riding an inferior product. Both my brother in-laws ride Ultra Classics. That's who I ride with most of the time. There is a lot of friendly back and forth. We have fun with it. They tell everyone they are ashamed of their sister for riding on back if a Honda. She tells them if they can ever catch up maybe they can talk about it. I'm proud to ride a Honda. I don't need a HD to make myself feel good. HD builds some good looking bikes. That CVO Breakout is hot. Probably 30 or 35 thousand. Not for me.

[2015F6B]

I'd be more worried about the future of Honda's MC lineup with recent year's offerings.

I like Honda, but if it were not for the flat 6 engine, I'd be riding something else.

Amen . . . .

[VStarRider]

Harley isn't going anywhere. Just because sales are down, doesn't mean they are in trouble, just means the market has been adjusting and will always adjust. I'd be more worried about the future of Honda's MC lineup with recent year's offerings.

I've said before to many a Harley riding friend that if Harley would manufacture something equivalent to a bike like my F6B ,I could possibly be a Harley customer. I like Honda, but if it were not for the flat 6 engine, I'd be riding something else.

I was saying this for awhile, probably because I had been used to the "cruiser" riding position offered by my VStar 1100. I took some time to adjust to the semi-cruiser position featured on the F6B. However, now after ~1,300 miles, I appreciate the position much more. It seems to be much more conducive to longer rides, no matter what seat/seat modification one makes to the cruiser. Also, the handling on the F6B is so impressive for such a big bike...my 1100, despite weighing 300 lbs less, handles much more clumsily.

I test rode a Victory CC Tour. I loved the look and even though it was out of my price range, I was thinking of ways to pay for it as I pulled up to it in the dealer's lot. I cut the test-ride route in half because I was so disappointed with the seat, the ride, the excessive vibration, lack of low end power, quality control issues, etc. I stopped at the Honda dealer on the way home and made a deal on the '13 F6B, saving several thousand in process.

I have never ridden a Harley, but based on my experience with the Vic, I am guessing I would like it even less. One thing has always stood out to me...$30 grand + for an air-cooled push-rod twin? Really?? That is about the cheapest engine design to manufacture.

One more thing - the 1800 Flat 6 is beyond impressive with its power - if they offered a 1200 Flat 4 with around 80 hp, I would be completely fine with that.

[opas ride]

They have a captive audience. Most HD owners are brainwashed. They think its the only brand worthy of their money. They scoff at the idea of owning a Honda. Out of the blue , wife asks me tonight , "why do people think they have to buy a Harley"? I had to think about it for a minute. I think its peer pressure. And since most people are followers , they do what is expected instead of making a decision based on facts.

Goes back to the old political saying "generally the masses are asses"....Seems this happened in the last elections and applies to most "brainwashed" HD riders....JMHO

[Phantom]

One more thing - the 1800 Flat 6 is beyond impressive with its power - if they offered a 1200 Flat 4 with around 80 hp, I would be completely fine with that.

The flat 4 came on the original Goldwing back in the 70's. Honda has a V-4 in the ST1300 that is also bullet proof. The ST's are more comparable to a Sport - Tourer and not a cruiser.

[2015F6B]

Honda has a V-4 in the ST1300 that is also bullet proof. The ST's are more comparable to a Sport - Tourer and not a cruiser.

Sadly the ST1300 is out of production . . .

Previously, I owned a VFR1200, V4, shaft drive with bags, etc. Great sport-touring bike that is still in production for the European market but sadly not marketed in the USA any more.

My thoughts on HD (and I've been there). . . you're not buying the best bike out there but you are buying a lifestyle . . one is which I no longer care to be part of.

[Greg O]

Before buying the F6B I looked at Motor Guzzi, the California Touring in particular. I really liked this bike. The styling was fantastic, what held me back was the engine was not water cooled and the dealer support wasn't there. Moto Guzzi's seem to be well made bikes.

[ShanghaiDan]

Harley isn't going anywhere. Just because sales are down, doesn't mean they are in trouble, just means the market has been adjusting and will always adjust. I'd be more worried about the future of Honda's MC lineup with recent year's offerings.

I've said before to many a Harley riding friend that if Harley would manufacture something equivalent to a bike like my F6B ,I could possibly be a Harley customer. I like Honda, but if it were not for the flat 6 engine, I'd be riding something else.

One thing to put Honda vs. HD in perspective: Honda sells in 5 days what Harley sells all year. About 18 million bikes a year for Honda, about 270,000 a year for Harley. Dramatically different volumes of bikes...

[3Chief]

One thing to put Honda vs. HD in perspective: Honda sells in 5 days what Harley sells all year. About 18 million bikes a year for Honda, about 270,000 a year for Harley. Dramatically different volumes of bikes...

Remember that figure accounts for all classes of motorcycle not just cruisers. It also includes quads and other non street units. HD is a one trick pony that isn't #1 in it's chosen niche either.

[Old Ryder]

Yes sir. That engine went in the V-Rod, the Street Rod, The Night Rod, etc. It is/was a great engine! Harley should have put that motor into some of their other bikes. Too bad, a missed opportunity. :icon_doh:

I don't think it would have been accepted. I own a Street Rod as a 2nd bike. It is a 2006 model and I got it for a song. It sat on the dealers floor for 5 years and was bought by a 40 year old woman schoolteacher who took it on a 3 month tour of Texas, New Mexico, Az, etc...--then a 70 year old man bought it as a Sport tourer. After being on the boards and doing my research, the Street Rod crowd are very loyal as this is a super bike. It has mid position pegs, 124 HP (stock with OEM everything) with 88 lbs of torque and after 5K RPM you had better hold on. It is a one off chassis that gives a 40 degree lean angle and 4 degrees less rake than a standard Vrod and then lengthened in the middle for a true Sport Bike/Super Bike feel. A 28" inseam can sit flat footed at a light. The result???? They made them for 2 years and quit! They are hard to give away now and impossible to sell with a new $15K price tag. Standard Vrod parts don't fit. Can't even find a seat these days. No such thing as aftermarket ANYTHING, but let me tell you that this is a wonderful machine that everybody HATES. This machine will hang with about any crotch rocket and is well mannered in the turns as well as a straight line. It is extremely well engineered. Harley riders do not acknowledge the Vrod as a true Harley and Vrod riders don't acknowledge the Street Rod as a true Vrod! :shrug: This is the true red haired stepchild! Then there was the Cafe' Racer Sporster. How many of those do you see?

The point is that it is a gamble whenever Harley goes into a different "market". They do not have a lot of success even when they produce a great bike.

[gandydancer]

Amen to that last line Old Ryder---good looking bike:icon_biggrin::

[Dirtstiff's F6B]

I don't think it would have been accepted. I own a Street Rod as a 2nd bike. It is a 2006 model and I got it for a song. It sat on the dealers floor for 5 years and was bought by a 40 year old woman schoolteacher who took it on a 3 month tour of Texas, New Mexico, Az, etc...--then a 70 year old man bought it as a Sport tourer. After being on the boards and doing my research, the Street Rod crowd are very loyal as this is a super bike. It has mid position pegs, 124 HP (stock with OEM everything) with 88 lbs of torque and after 5K RPM you had better hold on. It is a one off chassis that gives a 40 degree lean angle and 4 degrees less rake than a standard Vrod and then lengthened in the middle for a true Sport Bike/Super Bike feel. A 28" inseam can sit flat footed at a light. The result???? They made them for 2 years and quit! They are hard to give away now and impossible to sell with a new $15K price tag. Standard Vrod parts don't fit. Can't even find a seat these days. No such thing as aftermarket ANYTHING, but let me tell you that this is a wonderful machine that everybody HATES. This machine will hang with about any crotch rocket and is well mannered in the turns as well as a straight line. It is extremely well engineered. Harley riders do not acknowledge the Vrod as a true Harley and Vrod riders don't acknowledge the Street Rod as a true Vrod! :shrug: This is the true red haired stepchild! Then there was the Cafe' Racer Sporster. How many of those do you see?

The point is that it is a gamble whenever Harley goes into a different "market". They do not have a lot of success even when they produce a great bike.

Those will give my VTX 1800 a run for the money.
Your right, most hard core don't even consider them a HD.

[Cigar]

Just called a friend that was at the HD dealer in Baltimore.. It sounded like he was at a Bar.. Noisy as hell.. HD is not going anywhere.. Hell maybe they should just make them offshore as to save the shipping on the parts to America..

The shame about it is if I had to by a HD I could not afford it.. I have a C90, right now, and it was 10k cheaper then HD... Hell a F6B would be 45k if it read HD on the side..

[BEIST]

My brother has not even ridden his almost $40K 2016 CVO Street Glide and they are already repairing it. A minor paint defect but still a horror show.

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