Working without a Soc Sec #

[adventurous1]

Hey ALL;

This topic was brought up under a different thread; however, I was laughed off - probably in the same manner as Donald Trump was laughed at when he first announced he was running for the Presidency.

Yes, I legally work w/o a Soc Sec Number (SSN). Nor do I provide a TIN nor an EIN. Here's the letter I received from the SS Admin about 14 yrs ago - and since that day, I have not used a SSN. I left my job, found employ at another business, and also started a business, and have NEVER used a SSN for pay again. And, w/o using a Tax ID number I receive 100 % of my paycheck - and no 'subtitle A income Tax' nor subtitle C Income Tax' is taken out of my paychecks. Zero compensation for labor is reported to the Feds as well.

Here's the letter from the SSA.

Also, here's the link from a Taco Bell application. You'll see where SSN is listed, it reads (optional). PepsiCo was sued a long time ago for demanding a number that is voluntary. I guess their legal department got the message, and changed their job applications.

http://www.mmsa.info/sites/default/files/Taco%20Bell%20Application.pdf

Also, here's the link to the fed's own I-9 Form. The full legal form is 9 pages - NOT the 2 pages most HR people give their new hires. Near the bottom of page 1, it clearly informs you and your payor that providing a SSN is VOLUNTARY.

https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/files/form/i-9.pdf

So yes, I keep 100 % of my paycheck, and I'm liable for ZERO Subtitle A Income Tax as well as ZERO for subtitle C Employment Tax.

Lastly, Pres R.R. back in the 80's formed was is commonly referred to as the Grace Commission. To see where all the 'income tax' dollars go. The report is thousands of pages long; however, here's the quote that tells you everything;

"100% of what is collected is absorbed solely by interest on the Federal Debt ... all individual income tax revenues are gone before one nickel is spent on the services
taxpayers expect from government."
-Grace Commission report submitted to President Ronald Reagan - January 15, 1984

Yup, not one dime of income tax goes to the Roads / Hwys (gas tax), Schools / cops / fire/ courts (property tax), etc., etc.

[ths61]

Where are the documents that state you are exempt for Federal, State and Local taxes ?

[adventurous1]

First, we have to acknowledge using a taxpayer ID is voluntary. If a Citizen used a tax ID # to work, they then are 'taxpayers' subject liability outlined in the tax codes.

Since it's voluntary, I do not use #, I never receive year end 'tax' documents with a TAX ID # to calculate the tax due. "exempt" as it pertains to the tax code is for taxpayers being exempt from certain tax liability. I'm not exempt - I'm just NOT liable for any excise tax. People w/o a TAX ID are not listed in the statutes because they are legal 'nontaxpayers'. Federal term - not mine.

"A tax is a legal imposition, exclusively of statutory origin (37 Cyc. 724, 725), and, naturally, liability to taxation must be read in statute, or it does not exist."
[Bente v. Bugbee, 137 A. 552; 103 N.J. Law. 608 (1927)]

"…the taxpayer must be liable for the tax. Tax liability is a condition precedent to the demand. Merely demanding payment, even repeatedly, does not cause liability."
[Terry v. Bothke, 713 F.2d 1405, at 1414 (1983)]

Lots of 'taxpayers' have gone to jail for filing 'false tax returns', or foolishly not filing their tax returns. How these people claim they don't owe a tax - or paycheck is not subject to the tax, when they used a TAX ID number to begin with. Those people are crazy.

[adventurous1]

Where are the documents that state you are exempt for Federal, State and Local taxes ?

"The revenue laws are a code or system in regulation of tax assessment and collection. They relate to taxpayers, and not to nontaxpayers. The latter are without their scope. No procedure is prescribed for nontaxpayers, and no attempt is made to annul any of their rights and remedies in due course of law. With them Congress does not assume to deal, and they are neither of the subject nor of the object of the revenue laws..." "The distinction between persons and things within the scope of the revenue laws and those without is vital."
[Long v. Rasmussen, 281 F. 236, 238(1922)]

You see, even the courts a long time ago stated the tax code is for taxpayers. Taxpayers use TAX ID #'s which makes them liable. Or taxpayers have earned money in an activity of excise (privilege). 'Nontaxpayers' do not use a TAX ID, thus their 'compensation for labor' falls outside the scope of the tax code.

Kinda simple stuff, though it pisses off the HR / Accountant every time I receive my paycheck. However, with all the extra money I'm able to keep, I'm able to take month long vacations on a bike - buy a F6B for cash - and I buy lunch for all the employees at least once a month.

Hope this helps.

[F6B1911]

I am curious...
Do you drive your F6B on any roads that were built or maintained by taxpayers?
Do you send your children to a public or private school?
Do you fund your own retirement and your own medical insurance?
Do you send any money to the Armed Forces for the services they have provided?

[valkmc]

I am curious...
Do you drive your F6B on any roads that were built or maintained by taxpayers?
Do you send your children to a public or private school?
Do you fund your own retirement and your own medical insurance?
Do you send any money to the Armed Forces for the services they have provided?


Same questions came to mind as I was reading this thread!

[willtill]

I am curious...
Do you drive your F6B on any roads that were built or maintained by taxpayers?
Do you send your children to a public or private school?
Do you fund your own retirement and your own medical insurance?
Do you send any money to the Armed Forces for the services they have provided?



Same questions came to mind as I was reading this thread!

Also there is the fact that we as an American society are a collective; and our safety, security and infrastructure depends on the ability of the government to provide; which has a monetary cost funded via taxation. While a lot of that money collected is seemingly pissed away by the politicians and bureaucrats; the very basis for revenue to be generated exists.

If we were a nation of freeloaders... we would cease to being a nation.

[shooter]

Will , you guys can have this one. I am fairly sure that I will say the wrong thing and be accused of things that I cannot deny. Good luck.

[Steve 0080]

All of this from a man, from a state that is BILLIONS of Dollars in debt.....http://www.usdebtclock.org/state-debt-clocks/state-of-california-debt-clock.html

[shooter]

Yup

[seadog]

I Think this guy better watch who he is telling that he hasn't paid taxes in 14 years. While the rest of us support his ass.

[jm21ddd15]

Sounds like your a freeloader, benefiting from every taxpayer in the country. Kinda like an illegal alien. Not something to brag about. JMO

[Bob Penn]

I bet he thinks he doesn't pay any liquor tax either. I know I spend far too much on that hidden tax.

Is'n't there a gas tax added to the price of every gallon of gas you buy in CA.?

He probably won't need SS either. I'm sure there's free room, board and exercise courts in his future.

[stroguy]

Will , you guys can have this one. I am fairly sure that I will say the wrong thing and be accused of things that I cannot deny. Good luck.

Boy ain'tnot this the smart play. Is this limobrainles2? I will not succumb to a coronary with this one.

[shooter]

Easy big guy.

[taxfree4]

Good people fall on both sides of this, I was doing this with a major corporation WITH a social security number, hence my screen name. It is legal, if you familiarize yourself with the rules of the court, both federal and state and how to fill out court briefs, procedure, both federal and state. Two taxes authorized by the Constitution direct and indirect - direct having to be apportioned, indirect being voluntary. Direct is property taxes, indirect is liquor, gas, tobacco. The way the gov. gets around it is when you are handed a W-4 you voluntarily fill it out and say take out this much for these many dependants. Every year you submit your return, separate tax, volutarily (to simplify I won't get into the reasons). He does pay property taxes, gas taxes (He doesn't stand at a pump and scream "I'm not paying the tax") and all the other taxes. That won't stop the IR from sending his employer a letter saying take the highest rate out. They can, if they want, under Civil Asset Forfeiture, charge the property, the money, with a crime if they BELIEVE a crime has been committed. It is no easy road, no matter what anyone says, easier to pay, and that's how the gov. likes it. Irwin Schiff found out the hard way, even though they never legally challenged his assertions he died in prison.

Dollars, the Federal Reserve Note, is not money but a notation of debt, it is a private scrip loaned to the gov. with the IRS, a private trust out of Puerto Rico, as the collector. That is why they are given great power in collecting (accounting) for that debt just like a collector for a loan shark. They can seize proprerty, bank accounts etc. WITHOUT a court order because Congress, the loanee gave them that power as they must account to the Federal Reserve, the loaner, where all their property is. Why do you think your birth certificate is held at the Dept. Of Commerce, we are chattel promised to the lenders for repayment of the money loaned to Congress. Very interesting stuff, could go on and on.

[Spanky]

He could claim He's moorish... At least it's in the off topic thread. I agree with Shooter, I think i'll stop there.

[shooter]

Wussy.:stirthepot:......I'm sorry Spanky. I didn't mean it.

[stroguy]

He could claim He's moorish... At least it's in the off topic thread. I agree with Shooter, I think i'll stop there.

Isn't it Moops?

http://youtu.be/Ia02fGpUQfU

[adventurous1]

Same questions came to mind as I was reading this thread!

Unfortunately, MOST American DO NOT bother to READ.

"100% of what is collected is absorbed solely by interest on the Federal Debt ... all individual income tax revenues are gone before one nickel is spent on the services
taxpayers expect from government."
-Grace Commission report submitted to President Ronald Reagan - January 15, 1984

Do you understand? NONE of the funds collected from subtitle A Income Tax goes for any services. Let that sink in.

My F6B and cars,are driven on roads that are paid for with 'GAS TAX'. (NOT subtitle A income tax)
Gov't worker jobs (schools/ cops/ fire/ courts) are paid by PROPERTY TAX (NOT subtitle A income tax).

I'm investing so I will not need the Soc Sec Check. Which, is a proven fact, NO ONE gets back what they paid into it. And, the more $ I have in my hand, the more I spend in the local community, which CREATES JOBS.

[adventurous1]

I am curious...
Do you drive your F6B on any roads that were built or maintained by taxpayers?
Do you send your children to a public or private school?
Do you fund your own retirement and your own medical insurance?
Do you send any money to the Armed Forces for the services they have provided?

Unfortunately, MOST American DO NOT bother to READ.

"100% of what is collected is absorbed solely by interest on the Federal Debt ... all individual income tax revenues are gone before one nickel is spent on the services
taxpayers expect from government."
-Grace Commission report submitted to President Ronald Reagan - January 15, 1984

Do you understand? NONE of the funds collected from subtitle A Income Tax goes for any services. Let that sink in.

My F6B and cars,are driven on roads that are paid for with 'GAS TAX'. (NOT subtitle A income tax)
Gov't worker jobs (schools/ cops/ fire/ courts) are paid by PROPERTY TAX (NOT subtitle A income tax).

I'm investing so I will not need the Soc Sec Check. Which, is a proven fact, NO ONE gets back what they paid into it. And, the more $ I have in my hand, the more I spend in the local community, which CREATES JOBS.

[adventurous1]

I Think this guy better watch who he is telling that he hasn't paid taxes in 14 years. While the rest of us support his ass.

I pay taxes on almost everything I purchase. I'm just not liable for Subtitle A income tax and thus I do not pay for what I'm not liable.

Question for you. If you found a million dollars in the street, and your CPA cannot find you're liable for the taxes on that money, would you still give the gov't 30-50 % of it - IF YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO?

[adventurous1]

I Think this guy better watch who he is telling that he hasn't paid taxes in 14 years. While the rest of us support his ass.

lol...you're not supporting me in any way, shape, or form. I pay taxes on almost everything I purchase - which does fund the services that run America. You might want to begin reading and watching things other than CNN.

"100% of what is collected is absorbed solely by interest on the Federal Debt ... all individual income tax revenues are gone before one nickel is spent on the services
taxpayers expect from government."
-Grace Commission report submitted to President Ronald Reagan - January 15, 1984

Do you understand? NONE of the funds YOU PAY for subtitle A Income Tax goes for any services. Let that sink in.

My F6B and cars,are driven on roads that are paid for with 'GAS TAX' (NOT subtitle A income tax)
Gov't worker jobs (schools/ cops/ fire/ courts) are paid by PROPERTY TAX (NOT subtitle A income tax). Don't forget all the SALES TAX.
Also, there's an abundance of 'Excise Taxes'. Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, etc., etc. that FUND the FED Gov't (Border Patrol, Coast Guard, etc., etc.)

[jm21ddd15]

lol...you're not supporting me in any way, shape, or form. I pay taxes on almost everything I purchase - which does fund the services that run America. You might want to begin reading and watching things other than CNN.

"100% of what is collected is absorbed solely by interest on the Federal Debt ... all individual income tax revenues are gone before one nickel is spent on the services
taxpayers expect from government."
-Grace Commission report submitted to President Ronald Reagan - January 15, 1984

Do you understand? NONE of the funds YOU PAY for subtitle A Income Tax goes for any services. Let that sink in.

My F6B and cars,are driven on roads that are paid for with 'GAS TAX' (NOT subtitle A income tax)

Gov't worker jobs (schools/ cops/ fire/ courts) are paid by PROPERTY TAX (NOT subtitle A income tax). Don't forget all the SALES TAX.
Also, there's an abundance of 'Excise Taxes'. Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, etc., etc. that FUND the FED Gov't (Border Patrol, Coast Guard, etc., etc.)


Sorry, but YOU are wrong. Where do you think Federal Debt comes from? It comes from stuff like the Best Military in the world, for one example. And there are tons of Federal grants and subsities to Universities and Federal Hyway Grants all over our country. All your Californuia roads don't just come from your gas tax. Ever hear of a National Park? I think you have plenty on the west coast. You need to wake up to reality.

[shooter]

'popcorn and coke'

[Fla_rider]

:lolup::stirthepot:

[shooter]

I think they are doing a good job. Most of the boys are a lot nicer than me.

[jm21ddd15]

I think they are doing a good job. Most of the boys are a lot nicer than me.

Come on Shooter. I know you want to get in on this. Have some fun :clap2:

[choptop]

As someone who fell behind in Federal taxes in another time, newly divorces, self employed, raising 2 boys on my own and was raped by the government in penalties and interest that a loan shark would be put in jail for and had a sizable chunk of money taken out of my paycheck , once I was no longer self employed, for 10 years, eventually paying twice the tax owed, I have no love for a government that will squeeze every last damn cent out of it's citizens to payroll it's agenda and give everything to people not of this country...
The majority of us have been raised to pay our taxes because that's what our parents did and their parents before them and it is the the American way, while the American way, as far as the politicians/government is concerned has veered way of the intended path.
This man is paying his taxes on most things, and ideally not paying some taxes legally yet putting that money away for a future w/out social security. He is, unless I am all wet, a pretty much normal guy like you and I , Riding a F6b, planning for the future that has learned how to, ideally legally, play the system to possibly his benefit, but pretty much playing by our rules, unlike the rich and the politicians, who's rules we have to play by but themselves do not live or play by. Given the info he has given, I will give him a bye.

Just the opinion of a bugger eating moron from small town Wisconsin and far as I know, I am still allowed to have that unless it offends the BLM movement, the PLO, Cnn ...

[stroguy]

So if we all jump on board I wonder what happens to that debt? that interest?......................................... .........hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, points to ponder. Fortune cookies anyone?

[ths61]

So if we all jump on board I wonder what happens to that debt? that interest?......................................... .........hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, points to ponder. Fortune cookies anyone?

Maybe the government would stop spending their way out of debt ? Nahhh, that would never happen. Now where are those Federal "ccsmiley" "ccsmiley"

[ths61]

As someone who fell behind in Federal taxes in another time, newly divorces, self employed, raising 2 boys on my own and was raped by the government in penalties and interest that a loan shark would be put in jail for and had a sizable chunk of money taken out of my paycheck , once I was no longer self employed, for 10 years, eventually paying twice the tax owed, I have no love for a government that will squeeze every last damn cent out of it's citizens to payroll it's agenda and give everything to people not of this country ...

Too bad your name wasn't Al Sharpton.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-UfORQXH02D0/VP5OzutYhwI/AAAAAAAABr0/GytXElQy_Mw/s1600/sharpton.png

[choptop]

Too bad your name wasn't Al Sharpton.

http://api.ning.com/files/YLaeso7tISDE-hy9hv03PUf4a7jvk6qCXf8J*aa9kBKvLvPX5zEFX8earYkx7EL A9NuPkFXtvfKvscV32rgW44w36sdOxSXG/sharpFerguson1.jpg


I would rather they take it out of my social security till the day I die than be anything like Al Sharlatan. He is just another fine example of the different rules for different classes or the classless.

[ths61]

Found this site: http://famguardian.org/subjects/Taxes/Remedies/TaxpayerVNontaxpayer.htm

Spin on IRS Publication 1 to include Nontaxpayers:

http://sedm.org/libertyu/NontaxpayerBOR.pdf

[RickJ]

I am not a fan of how my taxes are wasted. I would also add that it is perfectly legal to avoid taxes, illegal to evade taxes- to me the OP sounds like he has found an avoidance scheme- perfectly legal maybe.I do know that most sources report that SS usually winds up PAYING you more than you contribute...whether this hols up factoring sound investment of the 7.?% you pay I don't know...sound investment would be like no risk here- because that is essentially what SS equals. Self employed pay some 13%...I don't know the break-even there. I'm reluctant to slam someone for avoiding whatever taxes they can legally avoid.

Last time I said we are totally effed as a country, it was interpreted as unpatriotic...well, my "patriotism" papers are in order- but between an expensive paralyzed congress and a president who wipes his ass with the constitution I repeat...we, at this time in our history- are screwed. I hold hope for the future, and I ain't moving!

[choptop]

Kind of reads to me, like a Saturday night live tongue and cheek thing.

[stroguy]

I am not a fan of how my taxes are wasted. I would also add that it is perfectly legal to avoid taxes, illegal to evade taxes- to me the OP sounds like he has found an avoidance scheme- OH, THIS IS THE PART WHERE A GOOD DEMOCRAT MEANS 'PAY YOUR FAIR SHARE'. ALL THIS TIME I THOUGHT IT WAS AIMED AT RICH FOLK THAT DID IT THROUGH HARD WORK. GLAD I FINALLY UNDERSTAND THAT IT"S THE TAX AVOIDERS. perfectly legal maybe.I do know that most sources report that SS usually winds up PAYING you more than you contribute...whether this hols up factoring sound investment of the 7.?% you pay I don't know...sound investment would be like no risk here- because that is essentially what SS equals. Self employed pay some 13%...I don't know the break-even there. I'm reluctant to slam someone for avoiding whatever taxes they can legally avoid.

Last time I said we are totally effed as a country, it was interpreted as unpatriotic...well, my "patriotism" papers are in order- but between an expensive paralyzed congress and a president who wipes his ass with the constitution I repeat...we, at this time in our history- are screwed. I hold hope for the future, and I ain't moving!

Thanks, good post.

[taxfree4]

This will give you an idea of where it comes from and where it goes. BTW, it all goes into/comes out of the General Fund, there are no trust funds, they've been spent a long time ago.

[choptop]

I am not a fan of how my taxes are wasted. I would also add that it is perfectly legal to avoid taxes, illegal to evade taxes- to me the OP sounds like he has found an avoidance scheme- perfectly legal maybe.I do know that most sources report that SS usually winds up PAYING you more than you contribute...whether this hols up factoring sound investment of the 7.?% you pay I don't know...sound investment would be like no risk here- because that is essentially what SS equals. Self employed pay some 13%...I don't know the break-even there. I'm reluctant to slam someone for avoiding whatever taxes they can legally avoid.

Last time I said we are totally effed as a country, it was interpreted as unpatriotic...well, my "patriotism" papers are in order- but between an expensive paralyzed congress and a president who wipes his ass with the constitution I repeat...we, at this time in our history- are screwed. I hold hope for the future, and I ain't moving!

:yes:

[adventurous1]

Sorry, but YOU are wrong. Where do you think Federal Debt comes from? It comes from stuff like the Best Military in the world, for one example. And there are tons of Federal grants and subsities to Universities and Federal Hyway Grants all over our country. All your Californuia roads don't just come from your gas tax. Ever hear of a National Park? I think you have plenty on the west coast. You need to wake up to reality.

Apparently,regarding your theory on National Parks, hwys, grants, etc., etc. you are more wise than the entire Grace commission who's report clearly states (when they addressed all your issues 40 yrs ago Sir;

"100% of what is collected is absorbed solely by interest on the Federal Debt ... all individual income tax revenues are gone before one nickel is spent on the services taxpayers expect from government."
-Grace Commission report submitted to President Ronald Reagan - January 15, 1984

You are still not reading the truth or wantingly ignoring the truth.

As is most cases of 'herd mentality', the herd when faced with the truth of being lied to, crucifies the messenger. Especially when those at the top are being threatened at being exposed. Galileo, crucified (house arrest) for telling the truth, Christ the savior - when he spoke the truth and then turned over the money changers table - crucified; the people who said the earth is really round and not flat - crucified. I tell you working w/o a Soc Security Number is voluntary - and I show you the facts - and most of you people on this venue become totally unclued. Why? Because you may have to face the fact that you've been lied to for decades.

Gov't workers tell you the truth? Right. Weapons of mass destruction? Keep your doctor? President Richard Nixon and Henry Kissinger and the Bombing of Cambodia? The gulf of tonkin? The CIA overthrowing a democratically elected President in Iran during the 50's, the C.I.A.? The C.I.A. taking gaddafi's military weapons and selling them to Turkey on the black market to give to terrorist in Syria to overthrow another elected gov't (in Syria) - which by the way is completely against the law.

Tax evasions is illegal - tax avoidance is perfectly legal. Love my country and when I discovered the truth - and investigated it fully - then I left the plantation. Most people cannot handle the truth about the SSN because if they acknowledge the truth - then they have to acknowledge they've been lied to for decades. Then they'd have to realize every time they see their check - that all of that labor was given to gov't workers and not their own families.

Also, the lottery $$$ going to schools? That was the way it was sold to us. Logically, everyone thinks, "excellent, more $ for the schools." WRONG !! What they never told you was that yes the lottery $ will go to the schools; however, we'll now take the property tax money that was going to the schools, and we'll spend it on gov't worker pension plans, etc., etc. That's the reality.

[adventurous1]

Found this site: http://famguardian.org/subjects/Taxes/Remedies/TaxpayerVNontaxpayer.htm

Spin on IRS Publication 1 to include Nontaxpayers:

http://sedm.org/libertyu/NontaxpayerBOR.pdf

Hey thanks for this info. Seems interesting maybe even a little quirky. I'll need to read up and check the validity of whatever they're espousing.

All I know is that I stopped using a SSN (tax ID #) about 14 yrs ago, and never looked back. Just noticed my checks increasing by 30 %. My Bank Account doesn't even have a tAX ID # associated with it. Because I asked for a 'non-interest bearing checking account'. Because 'interest' is 'taxable income'. With a non-interest bearing checking account, there's NOTHING to report to the Feds.

Fascinating what one can learn by reading a book and asking questions.

[willtill]

Adventurous1,

I don't think you are being crucified for what you have discovered, researched and are currently doing, to avoid paying Federal income tax. And I think you made some very good points (I will take them at face value for now).

It's just quite a shock initially on what you have been explaining to us.

Yes, we are members of the tax paying herd via income taxes towards an insurmountable national debt.... we're pretty much ineffective these days to really influence and turn back off of the wrong path that our politicians have taken us

Kudo's to you for finding this little financial respite and rebellion against the Fed. As it may enhance your personal financial freedoms; in the grand scheme of things.... you are still going to be circling the toilet bowl with the rest of us. :icon_wink:

[jm21ddd15]

Adventurous1
In my posts, I never said you were doing anything illegal, by avoiding income tax. I don't like it either. The point I was making was, that in one way or another, you get some benefits by the income tax paid by the rest, whether it currently is paying off interest, or for some other government scheme.

[adventurous1]

Adventurous1,

I don't think you are being crucified for what you have discovered, researched and are currently doing, to avoid paying Federal income tax. And I think you made some very good points (I will take them at face value for now).

It's just quite a shock initially on what you have been explaining to us.

Yes, we are members of the tax paying herd via income taxes towards an insurmountable national debt.... we're pretty much ineffective these days to really influence and turn back off of the wrong path that our politicians have taken us

Kudo's to you for finding this little financial respite and rebellion against the Fed. As it may enhance your personal financial freedoms; in the grand scheme of things.... you are still going to be circling the toilet bowl with the rest of us. :icon_wink:

Ain't that the truth. Yes, you are also correct. A few HR/ Accountants who've seen my paperwork over the years - still can't believe their eyes. Most have just passed it up the food chain to supervisors or to the payroll / pay check cutting vendor (ADP which is the largest in America) and then it's never a problem. Others have asked CPA's and attorneys to only come back and say "You're correct. Never heard about this before." Knew over a decade ago when my paperwork passed the legal department at ADP - and SONY pictures, that this was going to be my path.

btw, the national debt can never be paid off. It's set up that way. We use fractional banking - 'loaning money that's not physically in existence). When Congress asks the Federal Reserve to print a Billion Dollars, the Fed Res says 'ok', then prints the money - gives it to Congress. Congress now owes a Billion PLUS INTEREST. Guess what? 'no money' has been printed to pay the interest. When I discovered that then it dawned on me why the country will also be in perpetual debt. It's designed that way.

As another member stated earlier, I'm holding out for hope but I ain't leaving my country.

[ths61]

Hey thanks for this info. Seems interesting maybe even a little quirky. I'll need to read up and check the validity of whatever they're espousing.

All I know is that I stopped using a SSN (tax ID #) about 14 yrs ago, and never looked back. Just noticed my checks increasing by 30 %. My Bank Account doesn't even have a tAX ID # associated with it. Because I asked for a 'non-interest bearing checking account'. Because 'interest' is 'taxable income'. With a non-interest bearing checking account, there's NOTHING to report to the Feds.

Fascinating what one can learn by reading a book and asking questions.

I thought this one was interesting (Select 1.4.2 Withholding Forms, then select 04.201 Tax Form Attachment - Page 2 & 3 of 15, What I Am, What I Am Not):

http://sedm.org/Forms/FormIndex.htm

I wonder what the IRS thinks of this document. Looks like they are binding it to religion in some regards.

I guess they don't like it: https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/tax/legacy/2006/06/05/HansenInjunction.pdf

Looks like the court is going after all of his clientele lists.

[taxfree4]

Ain't that the truth. Yes, you are also correct. A few HR/ Accountants who've seen my paperwork over the years - still can't believe their eyes. Most have just passed it up the food chain to supervisors or to the payroll / pay check cutting vendor (ADP which is the largest in America) and then it's never a problem. Others have asked CPA's and attorneys to only come back and say "You're correct. Never heard about this before." Knew over a decade ago when my paperwork passed the legal department at ADP - and SONY pictures, that this was going to be my path.

btw, the national debt can never be paid off. It's set up that way. We used fractional banking - 'loaning money that's not physically in existence). When Congress asks the Federal Reserve to print a Billion Dollars, the Fed Res says 'ok', then prints the money - gives it to Congress. Congress now owes a Billion PLUS INTEREST. Guess what? 'no money' has been printed to pay the interest. When I discovered that then it dawned on me why the country will also be in perpetual debt. It's designed that way.

As another member stated earlier, I'm holding out for hope but I ain't leaving my country.

Just remember accountants are not presumed to know the law as evidenced by the fact if they put you in a tax shelter and the IRS disallows it YOU are penalized and have to make up the shortfall plus interest. And if tax attorneys were truthful they wouldn't be litigating a tax that they know is voluntary, however, their first obligation is to the court.

[adventurous1]

Adventurous1
In my posts, I never said you were doing anything illegal, by avoiding income tax. I don't like it either. The point I was making was, that in one way or another, you get some benefits by the income tax paid by the rest, whether it currently is paying off interest, or for some other government scheme.

Respectfully, once again I have to disagree. I receive no benefit of taxpayers paying what they're liable for - the Grace commission placed that argument to rest 40 yrs ago. Just as I receive no benefit of U.S. troops / State national guardsmen and women / mercenaries unconstitutionally invading sovereign countries and slaughtering men, women,and children w/o a Dec Of War. If and /or when Congress declares War, then I will support said effort 100 %. There's no benefit to America for occupying countries for decades. However, are there corporate benefits (aka "American interests") to soldiers being maimed and slaughtered in other countries? Yup.

So I left the plantation mentality when I discovered the truth. Just enjoying every day that I'm blessed to be walking (or riding ) this earth.....especially meeting people along the journey.

btw, the national debt can never be paid off. It's set up that way. Having a belief we have to pay down the debt is rather foolish. We use fractional banking - 'loaning money that's not physically in existence). When Congress asks the Federal Reserve to print a Billion Dollars, the Fed Res says 'ok', then prints a Billion dollars out of thin air and gives it to Congress. Congress now owes a Billion PLUS INTEREST. Guess what? 'no money' has been printed to pay the interest. When I discovered that then it dawned on me why the country will also be in perpetual debt. It's designed that way. Also, the United States Treasury is supposed to be coining our money. INTEREST FREE.

[adventurous1]

Just remember accountants are not presumed to know the law as evidenced by the fact if they put you in a tax shelter and the IRS disallows it YOU are penalized and have to make up the shortfall plus interest. And if tax attorneys were truthful they wouldn't be litigating a tax that they know is voluntary, however, their first obligation is to the court.

Yes, that's exactly correct. Case in point, our current company's HR/ Accountant said the CPA demanded I provide a SSN. He said, "It's the law." When he finally saw my paperwork, he backed waaaaay off.

Besides, so called "Professionals" being extremely ignorant and/or arrogant, if people stopped using SSN's - these accountants, CPA's, and tax prep professionals would be out of a job.

[adventurous1]

I thought this one was interesting (Select 1.4.2 Withholding Forms, then select 04.201 Tax Form Attachment - Page 2 & 3 of 15, What I Am, What I Am Not):

http://sedm.org/Forms/FormIndex.htm

I wonder what the IRS thinks of this document. Looks like they are binding it to religion in some regards.

Hmmmm.....I'll look this up later tonight. Like to investigate things somewhat before I provide my thoughts.

btw, most IRS people don't even know their own codes. That's why they CANNOT be held responsible if they've given a Citizen the wrong info. The courts are very clear - YOU are responsible for your own paperwork. Also, if you're ever requested to come in and/or have a meeting with the IRS, you are allowed to video and audio tape the entire meeting. Let then know in advance that said video will be posted on youtube. Most times, the IRS will completely leave you alone from that moment forward.

[taxfree4]

There are good people on both sides of this argument and I've had knock down drag out fights and nothing gets solved, everyone just retreats to their respectable corners. It definitely gets the adrenalin going and makes for great conversation.

[stroguy]

I tell my managers and supervisors dissent is a good thing. Who wants to work with a bunch of neutered sheep?

[willtill]

Respectfully, once again I have to disagree. I receive no benefit of taxpayers paying what they're liable for - the Grace commission placed that argument to rest 40 yrs ago. Just as I receive no benefit of U.S. troops / State national guardsmen and women / mercenaries unconstitutionally invading sovereign countries and slaughtering men, women,and children w/o a Dec Of War. If and /or when Congress declares War, then I will support said effort 100 %. There's no benefit to America for occupying countries for decades. However, are there corporate benefits (aka "American interests") to soldiers being maimed and slaughtered in other countries? Yup.

So I left the plantation mentality when I discovered the truth. Just enjoying every day that I'm blessed to be walking (or riding ) this earth.....especially meeting people along the journey.

btw, the national debt can never be paid off. It's set up that way. Having a belief we have to pay down the debt is rather foolish. We use fractional banking - 'loaning money that's not physically in existence). When Congress asks the Federal Reserve to print a Billion Dollars, the Fed Res says 'ok', then prints a Billion dollars out of thin air and gives it to Congress. Congress now owes a Billion PLUS INTEREST. Guess what? 'no money' has been printed to pay the interest. When I discovered that then it dawned on me why the country will also be in perpetual debt. It's designed that way. Also, the United States Treasury is supposed to be coining our money. INTEREST FREE.

I am starting to like this guy. Nice to have a breathe of fresh air; once someone opens the window and some of us meekly venture to it to look out. :yes:

Of course I oversimplified it... but you all get my point.

Post on.... Adventurous1 :thumb:

Maybe we'll see you at our upcoming rally in Russellvile. Make plans now if you can attend. :icon_cool:

[taxfree4]

Mr. "I don't pay withholding" better be buying drinks for the "we did pay withholding" crowd in Russellville or there'll be some explainin' to do. :071:

[willtill]

Mr. "I don't pay withholding" better be buying drinks for the "we did pay withholding" crowd in Russellville or there'll be some explainin' to do. :071:


I think we're good to go with a drink from him.... :icon_mrgreen: See below....




Kinda simple stuff, though it pisses off the HR / Accountant every time I receive my paycheck. However, with all the extra money I'm able to keep, I'm able to take month long vacations on a bike - buy a F6B for cash - and I buy lunch for all the employees at least once a month.Hope this helps.

[adventurous1]

I think we're good to go with a drink from him.... :icon_mrgreen: See below....

It'd be my pleasure to buy a round......and I'd be honored. See the extra $$$ keeps the economy rolling.

Not a big beer guy but do like stopping into local breweries I pass along the way and tasting the local flair . (or is it flare? Always get confused on those 2). Tasting a locally brewed ice cold frosty and sipping finely aged tequila. Light up a Cuban, and now we're talkin'.

Hey, perhaps that's a good thread. Best local breweries. Hmmmm......

[Steve 0080]

Any thoughts of how we could join in this effort in not paying or have we been in the system to long to start not paying ???

[adventurous1]

Any thoughts of how we could join in this effort in not paying or have we been in the system to long to start not paying ???

If you're working as an "employee" who's filled out both an I-9 and a W-2 w/ a Tax ID # (SSN), then unfortunately you've already admitted to your payor that you're a 'taxpayer' (one word term defined by Congress), and thus you're liable and/or subject to the rules /codes / statutes outlined in title 26 USC and 26 CFR.

[3Chief]

If you're working as an "employee" who's filled out both an I-9 and a W-2 w/ a Tax ID # (SSN), then unfortunately you've already admitted to your payor that you're a 'taxpayer' (one word term defined by Congress), and thus you're liable and/or subject to the rules /codes / statutes outlined in title 26 USC and 26 CFR.


Any thoughts of how we could join in this effort in not paying or have we been in the system to long to start not paying ???

There is a rumor/legend floating around work that somebody thru a long legal battle did find a way to stop paying. Supposedly as part of the settlement with the gov he was under a gag order not to discuss it with others...Since I work for the gov I take it with a grain of salt, however I know truth is stranger than fiction and as adventurous1 said nobody bothers to read.

[adventurous1]

I thought this one was interesting (Select 1.4.2 Withholding Forms, then select 04.201 Tax Form Attachment - Page 2 & 3 of 15, What I Am, What I Am Not):

http://sedm.org/Forms/FormIndex.htm

I wonder what the IRS thinks of this document. Looks like they are binding it to religion in some regards.

I guess they don't like it: https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/tax/legacy/2006/06/05/HansenInjunction.pdf

Looks like the court is going after all of his clientele lists.

Ok, looked over the court document, and something seems askew. Forget all the mumbo jumbo Federal Zone, and whatever else I don't understand, here's my confusion; If a Fed Judge ordered a permanent injunction about 10 yrs ago against that dude, that dude's website and that dude's materials he's selling - why are those links still activated and working? If there's a permanent injunction why is he allowed to still sell his products? The court would have ordered the web host to shut it down, yes? Also, did you see where the Plaintiff (the feds) wanted the Court to dismiss the Defendant's Right to a Jury Trial - and the court said ok? The Court denied the Citizen his Right to a Trial by Jury? Say it ain't so Joe. There's no way the Fed's would allow a Citizen to ignore a 'permanent injunction' for 10 yrs. Was it appealed and he won?

[willtill]

Any thoughts of how we could join in this effort in not paying or have we been in the system to long to start not paying ???

I collect retirement pay from my past military service. I don't think I'll be able to "opt out" from paying income taxes on that; without losing it.

I'd screw myself financially by just that.

So there's two things in life that are sure for me. Death.... and taxes. :shhh:

[adventurous1]

I collect retirement pay from my past military service. I don't think I'll be able to "opt out" from paying income taxes on that; without losing it.

I'd screw myself financially by just that.

So there's two things in life that are sure for me. Death.... and taxes. :shhh:

First, thank you for your past military service.

No Sir you cannot opt out of taxes on your retirement pay (lol) - even if you wanted to because they use your Tax ID. That's the entire key. Once a worker provides a payor a TAX ID #, said worker is a TAXPAYER as it pertains to compensation from that particular payor. When the worker declines to provide a payor with a TAX ID #, the payor simply states so on an affidavit on the transmittal document. (It's the penalty of perjury clause that the payor signs for everyone anyway ). Then the Citizen is working and is not a Taxpayer (one word as defined by Congress) and is not subject to title 26 USC or 26 CFR (tax codes/ statutes).

btw, here's the code section, in part, from the Code of Fed Regs re: Identifying numbers.

26 CFR 301.6109-1 - Identifying numbers.

(a) In general
(1) Taxpayer identifying numbers

(c) Requirement to furnish another's number.

"When the person [payor] making the return, statement, or other document does not know the number [ SSN, TIN, EIN] of the other person [payee], and has complied with the request provision of this paragraph (c) [ payor asks the payee for a number], such person [payor] must sign an affidavit on the transmittal document forwarding such returns, statements, or other documents to the Internal Revenue Service, so stating."


Yup, it's that simple.

[ths61]

Ok, looked over the court document, and something seems askew. Forget all the mumbo jumbo Federal Zone, and whatever else I don't understand, here's my confusion; If a Fed Judge ordered a permanent injunction about 10 yrs ago against that dude, that dude's website and that dude's materials he's selling - why are those links still activated and working? If there's a permanent injunction why is he allowed to still sell his products? The court would have ordered the web host to shut it down, yes? Also, did you see where the Plaintiff (the feds) wanted the Court to dismiss the Defendant's Right to a Jury Trial - and the court said ok? The Court denied the Citizen his Right to a Trial by Jury? Say it ain't so Joe. There's no way the Fed's would allow a Citizen to ignore a 'permanent injunction' for 10 yrs. Was it appealed and he won?

I found a very verbose feedback on the Family Guardian site that indicated he didn't own the website, but it didn't mention any repeals, just said the "pseudojudged's" judgements were illegal. It also had a link to what they called lying press release about the judgement that linked to a dead link on a government website. I could not find any other news on the case, but there is a long page about what they did after the suit and said the suit helped them update their documents and webpages. They also produced a new document guide covering avoiding pitfall arguments during trails and hearings.

I also noticed the PDF of the judgement appears to be truncated at then end.

http://famguardian.org/subjects/Taxes/News/Historical/CHRuling-060615.htm

Here is another PDF where the feds are asking the court to shut everything down, stop him directly and indirectly from doing business or talking about it:

http://famguardian.org/subjects/Taxes/CaseStudies/CHansen/IRS/IRS0081-20050502.pdf

Searching the case number I found the following document and have included the judgement section. Looks like the FEDs want his customer list. They are not shutting down his website, just censoring it.

U.S. versus Hanesn

ORDER GRANTING IN PART AND DENYING IN PART DEFENDANT'S MOTION TO AMEND JUDGMENT AND FOR MORE DEFINITE STATEMENT

https://casetext.com/case/us-v-hansen-48

IT IS HEREBY ORDERED that Defendant, individually, and doing business as or through any other entity, and other persons in active concert or participation with him, are permanently enjoined from directly or indirectly:
(1) Organizing, promoting, advertising, marketing, or selling (or assisting therein) any tax shelter, plan or arrangement that advises or encourages customers to attempt to violate the internal revenue laws or unlawfully evade the assessment or collection of their federal tax liabilities;
(2) Making false or fraudulent statements about the securing of any tax benefit by the reason of participating in any plan or arrangement, including the false statements that only federal workers are subject to the Internal Revenue Code, workers need not submit accurate W-4 forms, and that United States citizens are not liable for federal income taxes.
(3) Encouraging, instructing, advising, and assisting others to violate the tax laws, including the evasion of assessment and payment of taxes;
(4) Engaging in conduct subject to penalty under 26 U.S.C. § 6700, i.e., making or furnishing, in connection with the organization or sale of a shelter, plan, or arrangement, a statement the Defendant knows or has reason to know to be false or fraudulent as to any material matter under the federal tax laws;
(5) Engaging in conduct subject to penalty under 26 U.S.C. § 6701, i.e., preparing or assisting others in the preparation of any tax forms or other documents to be used in connection with any material matter arising under the internal revenue laws and which the Defendant knows (or has reason to believe) will (if so used) result in the understatement of tax liability; and
(6) Engaging in any conduct that interferes with the administration and enforcement of the internal revenue laws, including encouraging and assisting customers in disrupting or delaying IRS examination of their tax liabilities. [¶] . . . a permanent injunction is entered against the Defendant under IRC §§ 6700, 6701, 7408, and 7402 as stated above. . . .

IT IS FURTHER ORDERED under 26 U.S.C. § 7402 that:
a. Within 21 days of the date this Order is stamped "Filed," Defendant shall produce to the United States all records in his possession, custody, or control or to which he has access that identify the names, addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and social security numbers (or employer identification numbers) of persons or entities who purchased any of Defendant's products.
b. Within 21 days of the date this Order is stamped "Filed," Defendant must place this Order, in its entirety, on his websites www.famguardian.org and www.sedm.org.
c. Within 21 days of the date this Order is stamped "Filed," Defendant shall provide a copy of this Order to his current and former customers for which he has contact information.

[adventurous1]

I found a very verbose feedback on the Family Guardian site that indicated he didn't own the website, but it didn't mention any repeals, just said the "pseudojudged's" judgements were illegal. It also had a link to what they called lying press release about the judgement that linked to a dead link on a government website. I could not find any other news on the case, but there is a long page about what they did after the suit and said the suit helped them update their documents and webpages. They also produced a new document guide covering avoiding pitfall arguments during trails and hearings.

I also noticed the PDF of the judgement appears to be truncated at then end.

http://famguardian.org/subjects/Taxes/News/Historical/CHRuling-060615.htm

Here is another PDF where the feds are asking the court to shut everything down, stop him directly and indirectly from doing business or talking about it:

http://famguardian.org/subjects/Taxes/CaseStudies/CHansen/IRS/IRS0081-20050502.pdf

Searching the case number I found the following document and have included the judgement section. Looks like the FEDs want his customer list. They are not shutting down his website, just censoring it.[/B]

Clicked on the website link.....WHOA daddy, 'verbose' is an understatement. lol I'll need to read that in chunks. But, the Complaint is interesting by itself. It seems Hanson's assessment is correct. Gov't attorney Shoemaker only offers opinion(s) and fails to enter one shred of factual evidence besides the correct spelling of a website. Shoemaker lists many thing but never provides facts, just opinions. It would be the same if Shoemaker said, Hanson attempted to kill someone - Shoemaker would have to have some factual evidence. Unless of course, you're with the gov't, then we just believe what you say is true.

As stated earlier, the order itself is from almost a decade ago, and the site is still working (and no Order was posted). The Feds DO NOT 'normally' allow Citizens to not follow thru with their Court Orders - especially not 10 yrs. So, I may be missing something. What I found very disturbing in the ORDER, is that it mentions that the Judge denied the Defendant his Right to a trial by Jury. That's telling. There's probably a reason for that; and the reason may be this from a few years ago;

A Louisiana Federal Jury found Attorney Tommy Cryer NOT GUILTY of 2 counts of willful failure to file an income tax return. Tommy had not filed a 1040 Confession Form (misnamed by the IRS as a “Return”) because he understood and believed that the law does not require Tommy to pay income taxes on his labor. Cryer ’s instant victory over the IRS is another serious blow to the IRS’ facade of invincibility and exposes the Wizard of Oz nature of the IRS. Cryer's web site is www.liefreezone.com.

Not sure what this attorney's full story is /was but whatever he presented to the jury, they believed him.

[taxfree4]

First, thank you for your past military service.

No Sir you cannot opt out of taxes on your retirement pay (lol) - even if you wanted to because they use your Tax ID. That's the entire key. Once a worker provides a payor a TAX ID #, said worker is a TAXPAYER as it pertains to compensation from that particular payor. When the worker declines to provide a payor with a TAX ID #, the payor simply states so on an affidavit on the transmittal document. (It's the penalty of perjury clause that the payor signs for everyone anyway ). Then the Citizen is working and is not a Taxpayer (one word as defined by Congress) and is not subject to title 26 USC or 26 CFR (tax codes/ statutes).

btw, here's the code section, in part, from the Code of Fed Regs re: Identifying numbers.

26 CFR 301.6109-1 - Identifying numbers.

(a) In general
(1) Taxpayer identifying numbers

(c) Requirement to furnish another's number.

"When the person [payor] making the return, statement, or other document does not know the number [ SSN, TIN, EIN] of the other person [payee], and has complied with the request provision of this paragraph (c) [ payor asks the payee for a number], such person [payor] must sign an affidavit on the transmittal document forwarding such returns, statements, or other documents to the Internal Revenue Service, so stating."


Yup, it's that simple.

At the end of this regulation is the following:


[T.D. 7306, 39 FR 9946, Mar. 15, 1974]

That is a Treasury Decision, Treasury Decisions do not have the force and effect of law, just like interpretive and procedural regs. If the regulation cites the statute then, and only then, is it a legislative reg and has the force and effect of law, thereby, can be cited, and relied upon, as the power to act, inside or outside of a court.

[ths61]

Here is another document stating he failed to comply with the previous court order posted above and is in contempt of court and seeking fines ($50,000), penalties and incarceration:

http://famguardian.org/subjects/Taxes/CaseStudies/CHansen/Litigation/DOJInjunction20050502/Motions/20070306-Contempt/P-20070306-CivContempt-112-01-MotionForContempt.pdf

He has a great quote from another court case:

"... Our Government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the Government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. To declare that in the administration of the criminal law the end justifies the means... would bring terrible retribution. Against that pernicious doctrine this Court should resolutely set its face. ..."

[adventurous1]

At the end of this regulation is the following:


[T.D. 7306, 39 FR 9946, Mar. 15, 1974]

That is a Treasury Decision, Treasury Decisions do not have the force and effect of law, just like interpretive and procedural regs. If the regulation cites the statute then, and only then, is it a legislative reg and has the force and effect of law, thereby, can be cited, and relied upon, as the power to act, inside or outside of a court.

Yes, that is correct as well.

[adventurous1]

Here is another document stating he failed to comply with the previous court order posted above and is in contempt of court and seeking fines ($50,000), penalties and incarceration:

http://famguardian.org/subjects/Taxes/CaseStudies/CHansen/Litigation/DOJInjunction20050502/Motions/20070306-Contempt/P-20070306-CivContempt-112-01-MotionForContempt.pdf

He has a great quote from another court case:

"... Our Government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the Government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. To declare that in the administration of the criminal law the end justifies the means... would bring terrible retribution. Against that pernicious doctrine this Court should resolutely set its face. ..."

Yes, excellent quote. Ok, this Hansen must be doing something correct - because the date of this Fed Doc is 2007. For the life of me, I cannot fathom why he's not in jail for contempt AND the websites are still operating. Which, as a former high school teacher with a voracious appetite to learn, I now makes me want to start reading this Hansen's web info.

What I'm able to glean from the Fed Docs is that this is a major scare tactic. Believe he's never made an appearance(?)' - w/o a Citizen making an appearance, a court's paperwork / determination is pretty much useless. He claims; the court has denied him his Right to enter his evidence into the Record; that they keep stating he's a 'taxpayer' w/o first proving it; etc., etc. The other damning fact is that in the previous ORDER it reads that the judge DENIED the defendant his Right to a jury trial. Again, this looks like a monstrous scare tactic, and this Hanson dude, isn't buying it. All of his objections seems to be logical reasons for the Order to be overturned upon appeal. Did I just use 'logic' and 'gov't worker' in the same sentence? lol

[ths61]

Yes, excellent quote. Ok, this Hansen must be doing something correct - because the date of this Fed Doc is 2007. For the life of me, I cannot fathom why he's not in jail for contempt AND the websites are still operating. Which, as a former high school teacher with a voracious appetite to learn, I now makes me want to start reading this Hansen's web info.

What I'm able to glean from the Fed Docs is that this is a major scare tactic. Believe he's never made an appearance(?)' - w/o a Citizen making an appearance, a court's paperwork / determination is pretty much useless. He claims; the court has denied him his Right to enter his evidence into the Record; that they keep stating he's a 'taxpayer' w/o first proving it; etc., etc. The other damning fact is that in the previous ORDER it reads that the judge DENIED the defendant his Right to a jury trial. Again, this looks like a monstrous scare tactic, and this Hanson dude, isn't buying it. All of his objections seems to be logical reasons for the Order to be overturned upon appeal. Did I just use 'logic' and 'gov't worker' in the same sentence? lol

Yep, what I gleaned from the judgements is that they were more on procedural issues (he didn't play by their deposition rules) versus specific tax law infractions. The result was an intimidation response versus identifying specific law infractions. His requests for specifics were all denied.

I was not able to find any following docs pertaining to the punitive requests to the court using the case number. The audit trail appears to have gone cold there. I did find other defendant's documents that included his case number.

They were probably avoiding adding his data into record for fear it would be used by others as an establish a president.

He has posted the audio recordings of some of his telephone meetings. I listened to some briefly and he seemed to be quite detailed and cautious about the negotiation of the discovery phase. The Feds took some liberties that he was seeking redactions before signing. In short, the Fed docs were putting words in his mouth that were not his, nor his opinions or beliefs.

[taxfree4]

Jury trials are dangerous, in a sense, because one of the ploys of the Prosecution is at pretrial or during trial they will file a "Motion in Limine" which the judge always rubber stamps for the government. That essentially shuts down the defendants case since it entails ANY evidence being introduced that MAY confuse the jury. Obviously, that won't work for the Prosecution during a bench trial so a jury trial isn't always the most ideal situation. BTW, the way you know a defendant has made an "appearance", and I haven't read any paperwork, is if in the body of the case documents his name appears in ALL CAPS, he's appeared, if he plead he appeared.

[adventurous1]

Jury trials are dangerous, in a sense, because one of the ploys of the Prosecution is at pretrial or during trial they will file a "Motion in Limine" which the judge always rubber stamps for the government. That essentially shuts down the defendants case since it entails ANY evidence being introduced that MAY confuse the jury. Obviously, that won't work for the Prosecution during a bench trial so a jury trial isn't always the most ideal situation. BTW, the way you know a defendant has made an "appearance", and I haven't read any paperwork, is if in the body of the case documents his name appears in ALL CAPS, he's appeared, if he plead he appeared.

Yes and no. Generally (not to be confused with a 'general appearance') the words 'special appearance' is written on the top page of the answer and/or any motion by the defendant. And, if the man /woman is present in Court in front of the judge, the man /woman's first words would be ".......by Special Appearance".

[adventurous1]

Yep, what I gleaned from the judgements is that they were more on procedural issues (he didn't play by their deposition rules) versus specific tax law infractions. The result was an intimidation response versus identifying specific law infractions. His requests for specifics were all denied.

I was not able to find any following docs pertaining to the punitive requests to the court using the case number. The audit trail appears to have gone cold there. I did find other defendant's documents that included his case number.

They were probably avoiding adding his data into record for fear it would be used by others as an establish a president.

He has posted the audio recordings of some of his telephone meetings. I listened to some briefly and he seemed to be quite detailed and cautious about the negotiation of the discovery phase. The Feds took some liberties that he was seeking redactions before signing. In short, the Fed docs were putting words in his mouth that were not his, nor his opinions or beliefs.

Yeah, I saw the deposition was a big part of the Fed's argument. Just didn't put it together the didn't play by their rules. Thank you, solid logic. You're probably dead on the Fed's wouldn't want it into the record. Hansen seems waaaaay on top of his game and thoroughly researched his logic for doing what he's doing. Fantastic lesson to be reaffirmed about 'reading before signing' any Fed Docs. Btw, when I need to provide a W-9, I always provide a 'substitute W-9 w/ my social security letter. Along w/ a P-1 form.

[adventurous1]

Yep, what I gleaned from the judgements is that they were more on procedural issues (he didn't play by their deposition rules) versus specific tax law infractions. The result was an intimidation response versus identifying specific law infractions. His requests for specifics were all denied.

I was not able to find any following docs pertaining to the punitive requests to the court using the case number. The audit trail appears to have gone cold there. I did find other defendant's documents that included his case number.

They were probably avoiding adding his data into record for fear it would be used by others as an establish a president.

He has posted the audio recordings of some of his telephone meetings. I listened to some briefly and he seemed to be quite detailed and cautious about the negotiation of the discovery phase. The Feds took some liberties that he was seeking redactions before signing. In short, the Fed docs were putting words in his mouth that were not his, nor his opinions or beliefs.

Whoa, I just took a look at the first 10 or so pages of Hansen's IRS DUE PROCESS MEETING HAND BOOK - no wonder the Fed's didn't want that into the record. It's massive. It's also seems very succinct and thoroughly researched. He presents the codes the IRS agent MUST adhere to, and also having the sign of penalty of perjury of their true legal name. And, the Feds would have to rebut / refute ALL of the case law he's sighted. Most importantly, and I'm definitely not an attorney, but hasn't some statute of limitations run it's course on this issue? It's been 9 yrs, yes?

[taxfree4]

Yes and no. Generally (not to be confused with a 'general appearance') the words 'special appearance' is written on the top page of the answer and/or any motion by the defendant. And, if the man /woman is present in Court in front of the judge, the man /woman's first words would be ".......by Special Appearance".

That is why I look at the paperwork FROM the court not to the court as you can say/write, pretty much anything but the court decides if you've appeared or not, this is Public Policy, there aint no rules on their side. If his name appears in ALL CAPS in the body of the docs from the court, he's appeared. When I used to do "court watching" I've seen judges rule two different ways on what was virtually the same case, under Public Policy. No one on planet Earth knows more about court procedure, court paperwork or the UCC process than Sam Davis. Sam Davis will be let out of prison in 2017, it's their game and we may know the rules but they're the referee, they've got the guns. Sometimes they wait, and don't act so they can gather more defendants.

[adventurous1]

When I used to do "court watching" I've seen judges rule two different ways on what was virtually the same case, under Public Policy.

Yup, that's why I do my best to stay under the radar. Just live and enjoy my life --- and work w/o an SSN using the Fed's own document. NO SSN on my utility bills, NO SSN on my cell phone, NO SSN on my apartment lease. NO SSN on my bank accounts. NO SSN on Credit Cards only debit cards with NO SSN. NO SSN on my health insurance. All vehicles paid in cash, including an amazing used F6B w/ 4 K miles.

[taxfree4]

Yup, that's why I do my best to stay under the radar. Just live and enjoy my life --- and work w/o an SSN using the Fed's own document. NO SSN on my utility bills, NO SSN on my cell phone, NO SSN on my apartment lease. NO SSN on my bank accounts. NO SSN on Credit Cards only debit cards with NO SSN. NO SSN on my health insurance. All vehicles paid in cash, including an amazing used F6B w/ 4 K miles.

And I believe that is the key, stay low. Irwin Schiff's problem is he had it dead right, all of it, the law, procedure but he decided to advertise it. I had a long talk with him on a ride down to Manhattan to see his son, after a speech he gave (in I'll say Albany- long time ago). I said why don't you just keep it to yourself or just a few friends, he said he couldn't he felt it was his duty to alert the American people, he was on a crusade. Poor old man died in jail. If you do the right paperwork, and it sounds like you do, and keep it between you and the government, they'll honor it ... sometimes.

[ths61]

And I believe that is the key, stay low. Irwin Schiff's problem is he had it dead right, all of it, the law, procedure but he decided to advertise it. I had a long talk with him on a ride down to Manhattan to see his son, after a speech he gave (in I'll say Albany- long time ago). I said why don't you just keep it to yourself or just a few friends, he said he couldn't he felt it was his duty to alert the American people, he was on a crusade. Poor old man died in jail. If you do the right paperwork, and it sounds like you do, and keep it between you and the government, they'll honor it ... sometimes.

I looked up some of his books (The Federal Mafia) on Amazon and read some of the reviews. Apparently "The Federal Mafia" book was banned at some time (so much for the 1st Amendment). His website no longer sells it but allows you to download the PDF in its entirety for free along with some of his other stuff.

http://www.paynoincometax.com/great_giveaway.htm

[adventurous1]

And I believe that is the key, stay low. Irwin Schiff's problem is he had it dead right, all of it, the law, procedure but he decided to advertise it. I had a long talk with him on a ride down to Manhattan to see his son, after a speech he gave (in I'll say Albany- long time ago). I said why don't you just keep it to yourself or just a few friends, he said he couldn't he felt it was his duty to alert the American people, he was on a crusade. Poor old man died in jail. If you do the right paperwork, and it sounds like you do, and keep it between you and the government, they'll honor it ... sometimes.

From the little I've read about Irwin Schiff, I believe he was correct on many things but what I thought he was dead wrong was placing zero on a tax return (at least I think it was him) when the Courts repeatedly said "...that's frivolous", yet he kept doing it. People like Schiff seem to write these monstrous and voluminous books with soooooo much info, it's difficult to grasp it all (though I believe the essence is completely accurate). And the basic premise Schiff kept telling people they don't have to file; however if those same people used a TAX ID # then they are a TAXPAYER, and thus liable for TAXES. Saying anything contrary to this simple fact - will have a disastrous legal impact. As Schiff discovered a few times - and believe he was finally sentenced for 'contempt of court' not any other crime - but I may be mistaken.

Also, it seems that Hansen guy learned from his dealing with the Courts, he then tweaked some of his paperwork and approach to deal with some things that may be problematic. Read a book by a guy named Otto Skin or Skinner years ago. (I remember the name Otto because him and Otto Preminger are 2 guys with that name that I've ever heard ). Anyway, Otto's book was very basic, simple to read, and waaaay ez to comprehend.

What I do not understand with many of these 'tax patriot' people is that they never tell Citizens to simply stop using a TAX ID number to work (maybe they do, I don't know). But, it seems extremely simple. Now, I say that because I've been doing it for 14 yrs - without a problem. However, I do understand, if a citizen has worked at a company for 10 or 20 yrs, or in some union trade or whatever, where they've give a prior # to a payor, then the worker is screwed.

btw, the legal department at ADP told me years ago, that the 'default #' for people who do not provide a number is '555-55-5555'. Apparently, some or all payroll / accounting/ bookkeeping software programs needs "a number" for the software system to go to the next page in that operating system. Payors and colleges / universities seem to use the "555-55-5555".

[adventurous1]

I looked up some of his books (The Federal Mafia) on Amazon and read some of the reviews. Apparently "The Federal Mafia" book was banned at some time (so much for the 1st Amendment). His website no longer sells it but allows you to download the PDF in its entirety for free along with some of his other stuff.

http://www.paynoincometax.com/great_giveaway.htm

Thx for this info. Some of the vids seem to have been taken down. I'll look over some of the other material, though his material seems monstrous. Believe the attorney named Cryer in Louisiana (?) who proved to the jury he wasn't required to file a tax return, kept his points extremely simple and always on point. Though I've never read that court's transcripts.

[taxfree4]

From the little I've read about Irwin Schiff, I believe he was correct on many things but what I thought he was dead wrong was placing zero on a tax return (at least I think it was him) when the Courts repeatedly said "...that's frivolous", yet he kept doing it. People like Schiff seem to write these monstrous and voluminous books with soooooo much info, it's difficult to grasp it all (though I believe the essence is completely accurate). And the basic premise Schiff kept telling people they don't have to file; however if those same people used a TAX ID # then they are a TAXPAYER, and thus liable for TAXES. Saying anything contrary to this simple fact - will have a disastrous legal impact. As Schiff discovered a few times - and believe he was finally sentenced for 'contempt of court' not any other crime - but I may be mistaken.

Also, it seems that Hansen guy learned from his dealing with the Courts, he then tweaked some of his paperwork and approach to deal with some things that may be problematic. Read a book by a guy named Otto Skin or Skinner years ago. (I remember the name Otto because him and Otto Preminger are 2 guys with that name that I've ever heard ). Anyway, Otto's book was very basic, simple to read, and waaaay ez to comprehend.

What I do not understand with many of these 'tax patriot' people is that they never tell Citizens to simply stop using a TAX ID number to work (maybe they do, I don't know). But, it seems extremely simple. Now, I say that because I've been doing it for 14 yrs - without a problem. However, I do understand, if a citizen has worked at a company for 10 or 20 yrs, or in some union trade or whatever, where they've give a prior # to a payor, then the worker is screwed.

btw, the legal department at ADP told me years ago, that the 'default #' for people who do not provide a number is '555-55-5555'. Apparently, some or all payroll / accounting/ bookkeeping software programs needs "a number" for the software system to go to the next page in that operating system. Payors and colleges / universities seem to use the "555-55-5555".


Just the opposite, Schiff didn't say not to file he said to file, just file zero returns. The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that zeros on a return constituted a valid return. As far as liability, nowhere in the IR Code does it make you liable for an income tax. They will point to Section 61 ,however, that section mentions gross income but never defines what income is because the Supreme Court defined it already which is the result of the combination of labor and capital = corporate profit, thats why all corporations zero out at the end of the fiscal year, no profit - no tax. The IR Code never makes a distinction between a corporation or a person because they are the same - legal entities.

The 1040 makes you list wages, salaries. tips etc. except the way it should be read is if you notice the word in big, bold letters to the left of that "INCOME". You have no wages, salaries, tips etc. FROM income so zero is the only valid answer. Wages, salaries and tips are sources of income not income themselves. Thats why Schiff would tell you to go to your due process hearing and bring the IR code with you and have the agent point to where it makes you liable for the tax, never one instance of any agent ever being able to do it. His work was voluminous because he prepared you for court. In essence all his work was summed up in compliance "I want to pay, however, before I do verify the debt for me and show me the bill." and they couldn't, conditional acceptance and they couldn't meet the conditions, very powerful stuff if you do it right.

[taxfree4]

I looked up some of his books (The Federal Mafia) on Amazon and read some of the reviews. Apparently "The Federal Mafia" book was banned at some time (so much for the 1st Amendment). His website no longer sells it but allows you to download the PDF in its entirety for free along with some of his other stuff.

http://www.paynoincometax.com/great_giveaway.htm

Yep, he was a headstrong guy, his son is the well known financial guy Peter Schiff. Irwin was brilliant when it came to procedure its just sad he died in jail. Nice, quiet tax paying lives is the way to go.

[adventurous1]

Yep, he was a headstrong guy, his son is the well known financial guy Peter Schiff. Irwin was brilliant when it came to procedure its just sad he died in jail. Nice, quiet tax paying lives is the way to go.

Again, I'll have use basic logic. Tax documents are for TAXPAYERS. W-4's etc., etc. TAXPAPYERS use Taxpayer docs and Tax ID #'s to work. Simplest way would be is to just NOT provide a TAXPAYER ID #, and thus; there's absolutely no requirement to even dabble w/ Tax Docs at work nor at the end of the year. The concept and implementation of this process of working w/o a TAX ID has been fairly seamless....at least for me for the last 14 yrs. No 'commercial speech' as well.

Also what puzzles me, is why Schiff never asked if the criminal intent of the court and / the alleged crimes "I" committed fall under "Admiralty Law"? "Equity Law?" or "Common Law" ? Just having asked those questions of the court would have been hilarious. It also seems like Schiff had a very bad attorney....or maybe I'm missing something.

Shame he died in prison for virtually nothing. Seems like that attorney in Louisiana named "Cryer" (???) had a much better outcome with the jury.

[taxfree4]

Again, I'll have use basic logic. Tax documents are for TAXPAYERS. W-4's etc., etc. TAXPAPYERS use Taxpayer docs and Tax ID #'s to work. Simplest way would be is to just NOT provide a TAXPAYER ID #, and thus; there's absolutely no requirement to even dabble w/ Tax Docs at work nor at the end of the year. The concept and implementation of this process of working w/o a TAX ID has been fairly seamless....at least for me for the last 14 yrs. No 'commercial speech' as well.

Also what puzzles me, is why Schiff never asked if the criminal intent of the court and / the alleged crimes "I" committed fall under "Admiralty Law"? "Equity Law?" or "Common Law" ? Just having asked those questions of the court would have been hilarious. It also seems like Schiff had a very bad attorney....or maybe I'm missing something.

Shame he died in prison for virtually nothing. Seems like that attorney in Louisiana named "Cryer" (???) had a much better outcome with the jury.

The simple reason is the law allows you to file a zero return on the 1040 and file "exempt", with an accompanied affidavit, on your withholding. Schiff was doing this way before your process, he was the ground breaker and there was no reference to go by, he was the reference. He was never convicted of tax evasion or mail fraud, never even charged with it, which would have been easy if his process was bogus, far from it. Didn't matter which attorney he had when the government wants you in jail, you will be in jail, period.

As far as which court and law it is, it's all Admiralty Courts and Public Policy, there is one form of action, civil, it's all commerce, even murder. The Constitution is dead, it was replaced by "The New Deal". I've been in a courtroom where I've heard the judge say "If you mention your Constitutional rights one more time I will hold you in contempt.", strange right.

The only downfall to your process is you can't access your Social Security Account, not the one you pay into when you start working but the one that is endowed at birth once the birth certificate is registered. There are millions in there that can only be accessed through the number in "Accepted for Value". That's a whole other conversation that I won't get into, you'll have to look it up yourself, it makes the weekly stuff irrelevant.

[adventurous1]

The simple reason is the law allows you to file a zero return on the 1040 and file "exempt", with an accompanied affidavit, on your withholding. Schiff was doing this way before your process, he was the ground breaker and there was no reference to go by, he was the reference. He was never convicted of tax evasion or mail fraud, never even charged with it, which would have been easy if his process was bogus, far from it. Didn't matter which attorney he had when the government wants you in jail, you will be in jail, period.

The only downfall to your process is you can't access your Social Security Account, not the one you pay into when you start working but the one that is endowed at birth once the birth certificate is registered.

Christ Jesus is the quintessential example if they want you in jail - you're going to jail regardless. On your other points, perhaps yes - perhaps no. Why go to all the hassle of filing Tax docs when it's completely unnecessary - and could be out in the sun riding instead? Everything else is irrelevant, yes? Schiff had no references to go by? I found the SSN is voluntary simply by writing a letter to the SSA. Have to presume Schiff new this waaaaay before my beginnings. So, not sure why he didn't just use that method (perhaps he did, I don't know).

Believe that Hansen guy is doing it the smartest with his website. (for those who are informing the entire nation). It's been well over a decade, and he's never been thrown in jail and his site (or who's ever it actually is) is still up and running. He, himself, sells nothing (apparently). He doesn't deal w/ 'taxpayers' only nontaxpayers. Believe he's also retired from the Navy - or was in the armed services - or I may be way wrong on that and have to read the posted material a little more before I comment. Just at first blush, he seems to be the most thorough of anyone and doesn't go around saying 'taxes are voluntary' - 'you don't have to pay taxes'.

There's no reason for me to access any SS account. Not a concern of mine. I'm bringing in a six figure compensation for labor with 'zero' subtitle A and C tax liability and '0' withheld - and placing 50K a year away in savings. And, why are people mentioning the Constitution in a courtroom? That seems nonsensical - other than asking the court what is the intention of the court (admiralty, equity, common)? And, of course, which definition of the term "United States" is the court and /or Fed prosecutor using?

[taxfree4]

Christ Jesus is the quintessential example if they want you in jail - you're going to jail regardless. On your other points, perhaps yes - perhaps no. Why go to all the hassle of filing Tax docs when it's completely unnecessary - and could be out in the sun riding instead? Everything else is irrelevant, yes? Schiff had no references to go by? I found the SSN is voluntary simply by writing a letter to the SSA. Have to presume Schiff new this waaaaay before my beginnings. So, not sure why he didn't just use that method (perhaps he did, I don't know).

Believe that Hansen guy is doing it the smartest with his website. (for those who are informing the entire nation). It's been well over a decade, and he's never been thrown in jail and his site (or who's ever it actually is) is still up and running. He, himself, sells nothing (apparently). He doesn't deal w/ 'taxpayers' only nontaxpayers. Believe he's also retired from the Navy - or was in the armed services - or I may be way wrong on that and have to read the posted material a little more before I comment. Just at first blush, he seems to be the most thorough of anyone and doesn't go around saying 'taxes are voluntary' - 'you don't have to pay taxes'.

There's no reason for me to access any SS account. Not a concern of mine. I'm bringing in a six figure compensation for labor with 'zero' subtitle A and C tax liability and '0' withheld - and placing 50K a year away in savings. And, why are people mentioning the Constitution in a courtroom? That seems nonsensical - other than asking the court what is the intention of the court (admiralty, equity, common)? And, of course, which definition of the term "United States" is the court and /or Fed prosecutor using?

Schiff wrote his first book 1976 and started seminars in 1977 way before your process. If he thought the process was valid he would have definitely used it. Why go outside of the process that was set up, use the built in exemptions that had to be put in by very smart lawyers and use the process against them. All it required was 3 pieces of paper a year to achieve the same outcome as you are getting now. The only difference is the law, the rules, their own publications can be used against them. Schiff's website is still being maintained after his death. You cannot buy his book because the government banned it, that is the surefire acknowledgement you were hitting a nerve. In all Schiff's court cases the government never charged him with tax evasion because they are voluntary, they know that charge would be thrown out because "evasion" has to be a positive act. Merely not paying is not a positive act, distilling alcohol and buying/selling tobacco products IS a positive act.

Again, I am not talking about the SS acount you pay into by providing your SSN to an employer, that is an insurance account. I am talking about the SS Debit account which is accessed through the A4V process. If you never worked a day in your life it is sitting there waiting to be utilized. Outstanding balances, no matter what the figure, can be offset at the stroke of a pen, thanks to Public Policy, which entails the understanding of how money is created and banker's acceptance. Courts and banks access this account for a host of various reasons, unfortunately, the process was figured out by some very smart people. You know by writing the SSA saying the SSN is voluntary you are acknowledging their jurisdiction over that decision. Just like Schiff writing the IRS saying the taxes are voluntary is saying that they are the final arbiter in saying whether it is or isn't. The one problem is if you accept Federal Reserve Notes, whether you think taxes are volutary or a SSN matters, you are using a private scrip and like monopoly money they make the rules and at any given time they can change the rules.

You are not summoned to court by your SSN but by the name and they own both because of the birth certificate, which is a warehouse receipt under UCC (another whole subject). The government is great at trolling, letting the line out for a false sense of security then all of a sudden you're on the hook so I say, from experience, lay low don't spread this around. If yoy're doing good with it, great, but keep your courtroom knowledge sharp because you never know.

[adventurous1]

You know by writing the SSA saying the SSN is voluntary you are acknowledging their jurisdiction over that decision. .... The government is great at trolling, letting the line out for a false sense of security then all of a sudden you're on the hook so I say, from experience, lay low don't spread this around. If yoy're doing good with it, great, but keep your courtroom knowledge sharp because you never know.

Yes, we never know. btw, I didn't write the SSA saying their # is voluntary. All I did was inquire what their public policy was regarding the use of their #'s. The letter I received back astounded me - and of course, set me free. For me, I'll leave all the massive TAX books aside, and keep it very simple. No SSN = keeping 100% of my compensation for labor = No year end forms to receive nor fill out. Also, from the best of my understanding the SS tax is 'not' an insurance policy per se regardless of the title of a code / statute and / or the acronym FICA. Believe the SCOTUS said it's just another tax that goes into the general fund ( or something like that). As said before the SS account - including the bill of exchange stuff - never really interested me. And, who write the IRS and says their taxes are voluntary? lol

The last time I received a letter from the IRS or SSA (cannot remember which but it was about 10 yrs ago or so ) but they wanted some info to 'update their records' regarding my current address. Never responded, and that's the last I've ever heard from them. Though it might be interesting to see what's on my IMF for the last 10 yrs.

Thanks for all your input.

[taxfree4]

Master Files are interesting stuff if you have the codes to decipher the input entries. Where is your process posted or how would I obtain it? It's useless and irrelevant for me now but I would like to read the documents and the authority it uses in the process. I'm retired, plenty of time to read. I also have a Pacer account if you have any supporting cases, if there was a legal challenge to this process by a gov body. Thank you.

P.S. The third piece of paper you would file yearly was the attachment that goes with the 1040 form citing the Supreme Court cases that defined income, all the cases that supported your position and statements including that of an IRS pamphlet which says income taxes are based on voluntary compliance. It is a powerful tool when you have to go to court and state for the record their own words, and use it as a defense supporting your position.

[taxfree4]

Are you there?


I hope the government didn't get a no-knock warrant on our friend and put him in a jumpsuit.

[adventurous1]

Are you there?


I hope the government didn't get a no-knock warrant on our friend and put him in a jumpsuit.

lol.

[taxfree4]

lol.

Master Files are interesting stuff if you have the codes to decipher the input entries. Where is your process posted or how would I obtain it? It's useless and irrelevant for me now but I would like to read the documents and the authority it uses in the process. I'm retired, plenty of time to read. I also have a Pacer account if you have any supporting cases, if there was a legal challenge to this process by a gov body. Thank you.

P.S. The third piece of paper you would file yearly was the attachment that goes with the 1040 form citing the Supreme Court cases that defined income, all the cases that supported your position and statements including that of an IRS pamphlet which says income taxes are based on voluntary compliance. It is a powerful tool when you have to go to court and state for the record their own words, and use it as a defense supporting your position.