Packing for the Rally.

[shooter]

Duke and DavidK , I've made some lists of items you need to pack for the rally. You can thank me later. We will leave my house at 6 a.m. sharp. Since I've organized your lists you guys can buy my gas and meals on the way down. Your welcome.
Duke's List
1. Small sack of cash. Not too small
2. 2 credit cards. Don't want to have to worry about limits.
3. Jump Box. Shooters battery is a little weak
4. Air pump. Shooters back tire has 4 plugs
5. Tire plug kit. See above.
6. Spare tire. See above.
7. Cover for Shooters bike. Shooters is torn.
8. Detailer and microfiber towels for Shooters bike.
9. Glass cleaner for shooters bike.
10. Snacks for the road and water. I like those peanut butter crackers and Aquafina.
11. If you have a steak laying around bring that for Stro.
OK Duke , that's it for you.
DavidK's list.
1. Ammo for Shooters gun. I like Hydra Shok 230 grain 45 ACP. Prolly 500 rounds should do it.
2. Small sack of cash in case Duke runs short.
3. Credit card. In case Duke has low limits or he's been using them too much.
4. Extra Kimber 1911 in case Shooters Chinese special shoots craps. You should prolly just give me that when you get to the house. That way we are good.
5. Sack of snacks in case Duke don't bring enough.
OK David. That's it for you.
Shooters List;
1. See Duke and DavidK's list.
OK boys. I got that done. The rest is up to you'se guys.

[choptop]

And most importantly, be safe.

[shooter]

Always Chop.

[wjduke]

Duke and DavidK , I've made some lists of items you need to pack for the rally. You can thank me later. We will leave my house at 6 a.m. sharp. Since I've organized your lists you guys can buy my gas and meals on the way down. Your welcome.
Duke's List
1. Small sack of cash. Not too small
2. 2 credit cards. Don't want to have to worry about limits.
3. Jump Box. Shooters battery is a little weak
4. Air pump. Shooters back tire has 4 plugs
5. Tire plug kit. See above.
6. Spare tire. See above.
7. Cover for Shooters bike. Shooters is torn.
8. Detailer and microfiber towels for Shooters bike.
9. Glass cleaner for shooters bike.
10. Snacks for the road and water. I like those peanut butter crackers and Aquafina.
11. If you have a steak laying around bring that for Stro.
OK Duke , that's it for you.
DavidK's list.
1. Ammo for Shooters gun. I like Hydra Shok 230 grain 45 ACP. Prolly 500 rounds should do it.
2. Small sack of cash in case Duke runs short.
3. Credit card. In case Duke has low limits or he's been using them too much.
4. Extra Kimber 1911 in case Shooters Chinese special shoots craps. You should prolly just give me that when you get to the house. That way we are good.
5. Sack of snacks in case Duke don't bring enough.
OK David. That's it for you.
Shooters List;
1. See Duke and DavidK's list.
OK boys. I got that done. The rest is up to you'se guys.
I'm gonna tell you what my father used to say...."button your shirt, your heart is falling out!"

[shooter]

And that's a "Northernism". Means nothing down here. Never heard it before. Put your big girl panties on Missy and suck it up.

[dh2253]

I've got plenty of the Hydra-Shok...just in case.

[willtill]

I've got plenty of the Hydra-Shok...just in case.

Nothing wrong with .45 ACP ball. Standard Army munition for god knows how long. Put down many a Moro during those days.

It's what I use. Sometimes you need that slow moving round to punch through.

[Davidk]

There is lots wrong carrying 45ACP ball for personal defense.

It is correct that the military used ball ammunition for decades, but it was not because of its effectiveness, it was required to by treaty. Ball is an informal name for full metal jacket, or FMJ bullets. These round-topped, solid bullets are commonly used today for range practice because of their lower costs.

Hollow point bullets are designed to mushroom upon hitting soft tissue, dramatically expanding their width. The wider the bullet, the larger the temporary and permanent wound cavities it creates. An expanded hollow point may double its width or more.

Hollow point bullets are designed to remain within the body, thus transferring all of its energy within the body. This greatly increases its terminal effects.

Compared to hollow points, ball ammunition creates a relatively slim permanent wound channel and very minimal temporary wound cavity. Ball ammunition tends to go through bodies, with far less damage than hollow points, and they pose a real danger to people behind the intended target due to over penetration. Because ball ammunition tends to pass through the body without expansion, it does not transfer much of its energy into the body and its terminal effect is far lower than hollow point bullets.

Soldiers used to cut Xs into the head of ball ammo to help them separate upon impact in order to increase their effectiveness. They were called dumdums.

Over penetration is highly dangerous and never a good thing. Ball ammo is a dangerous choice for self-defense. Hollow points are far better.

22701 22702 22703

[53driver]

Wife & I use 185 gr wad cutter rounds for practice.
Punches a nice hole in paper.

In her Caspian 1911, the spring is specifically tuned for 185 grain ammo.

David - when you carry the DPX 160 gr - or other lower weight ammo - do you use a different spring?
Just curious.

Steve

[willtill]

There is lots wrong carrying 45ACP ball for personal defense.

It is correct that the military used ball ammunition for decades, but it was not because of its effectiveness, it was required to by treaty. Ball is an informal name for full metal jacket, or FMJ bullets. These round-topped, solid bullets are commonly used today for range practice because of their lower costs.

Hollow point bullets are designed to mushroom upon hitting soft tissue, dramatically expanding their width. The wider the bullet, the larger the temporary and permanent wound cavities it creates. An expanded hollow point may double its width or more.

Hollow point bullets are designed to remain within the body, thus transferring all of its energy within the body. This greatly increases its terminal effects.

Compared to hollow points, ball ammunition creates a relatively slim permanent wound channel and very minimal temporary wound cavity. Ball ammunition tends to go through bodies, with far less damage than hollow points, and they pose a real danger to people behind the intended target due to over penetration. Because ball ammunition tends to pass through the body without expansion, it does not transfer much of its energy into the body and its terminal effect is far lower than hollow point bullets.

Soldiers used to cut Xs into the head of ball ammo to help them separate upon impact in order to increase their effectiveness. They were called dumdums.

Over penetration is highly dangerous and never a good thing. Ball ammo is a dangerous choice for self-defense. Hollow points are far better.

22701 22702 22703

Yes David, I understand the limitations of ball ammunition. It's intent is to wound; rather than kill. It takes more soldiers to evac a wounded comrade from the battlefield; rather than to evac one whom has been killed; thus reducing the effectiveness of the force (force de-multiplier). That is the real basis for our military's use of small arms ball ammunition.

Contrary to what you stated about the military's non-use of hollow point ammunition; that is incorrect. The United States is one of the major powers that did not agree to that portion of the Geneva Convention. The United States is not bound by any treaty which prohibits the use of hollow tip; or frangible small arms ammunition. Here is a cite for you:

https://www.quora.com/Why-cant-the-Military-use-hollow-points

And as personal rebuttal to another comment you made; in my 21 years of being in the military and consistently using/operating small arms/crew served weapons; we never modified ammunition in the manner that you stated. It's not a common practice.

I can goldarned guarantee you that almost anything hit by .45 ACP ball is going to go down and be stopped in it's tracks. It's a freight train... hitting and passing through. I want my targets to bleed out (Deer as an example ....though I don't hunt them with a .45). As far as over penetration goes with ball ammunition; I want that extra availability/punch with my M1911A1... it's my personal preference for other reasons. It's not like I'm using people for cover... :icon_wink:

[Davidk]

I can goldarned guarantee you that almost anything hit by .45 ACP ball is going to go down and be stopped in it's tracks.

There are lots of studies from the FBI and from others that dispute that conclusion which is why every federal, state and local law enforcement agency in the country uses hollow point ammunition.

Military goals and personal goals are often not the same. Private citizen shootings happen most often in very close distances—most within 5 feet. At such distances, fractions of a second matter in regards to stopping the fight.
We are not looking to incapacitate the assailant so we can force multiply, we are seeking as stop the attack as close to instantly as possible. The faster a gunfight ends, the less chance there is of you getting shot, stabbed, etc.

Military personnel are not held legally responsible in war when bystanders are shot by over penetrating ammunition. Private citizens ARE, which is another reason why ball ammo is a dangerous choice for personal defense. Your explanation of why you carry ball ammunition is a recipe for conviction. My teaching, and those of other professionals, is not just for winning the gun fight, but for also winning the court fight—with a strong preference for not going getting into a shooting, and not going to court if involved in a shooting.

My preference, and the preference of every LE an Mil instructor (teaching private citizens) that I know—which is many, given my profession—is that ammo should do as much damage to the body, as soon as possible, in order to stop the ability of the attacker to continue. By definition, that is hollow points.

Ball ammunition will greatly reduce your ability to stop the attacker and will greatly increase the possibility of injuring bystanders.

Thank you for correcting my error on the Geneva Convention.

In terms of the dum-dum ammo, that has been told to me directly by several soldiers. They were older so that practice may have been before your time

[Davidk]

Wife & I use 185 gr wad cutter rounds for practice.
Punches a nice hole in paper.

In her Caspian 1911, the spring is specifically tuned for 185 grain ammo.

David - when you carry the DPX 160 gr - or other lower weight ammo - do you use a different spring?
Just curious.

Steve


Steve,

I carry Corbon's 185gn +P. While I still own 1911's, I switched my carry gun to a SpringField Armory XD45 which eats every thing and every weight bullet I have tried without needing to change springs. Your 1911's spring is tuned not just for the bullet weight, but the powder charge as well. Wadcutters tend to use lighter loads. You will just have to experiment. If you use that gun as a target gun with light loads, you might be better served with a second gun for self-defense ammo so you don't need to worry about cycling changes with different ammo. The most important feature in a carry gun is that it goes bang every time.

[53driver]

Steve,

I carry Corbon's 185gn +P. While I still own 1911's, I switched my carry gun to a SpringField Armory XD45 which eats every thing and every weight bullet I have tried without needing to change springs. Your 1911's spring is tuned not just for the bullet weight, but the powder charge as well. Wadcutters tend to use lighter loads. You will just have to experiment. If you use that gun as a target gun with light loads, you might be better served with a second gun for self-defense ammo so you don't need to worry about cycling changes with different ammo. The most important feature in a carry gun is that it goes bang every time.

I've got the XDM in .45. Love it. My match toy.
The Caspian is tuned completely to wad cutter loads by the USMC Pistol Team pistol-smith. I've never carried it and never will. The 1" extended Bomar front site doesn't do well in a holster.
I was just wondering if a weapon tuned for 230gr ball ammo is truly happy with lighter loads. Both wt and powder.

For EDC, I use a Glock 30SF. Like the Springfield, it eats everything I've put in it. Currently got a Black Hills product in the magazines.
Cheers,
Steve

[Davidk]

I was just wondering if a weapon tuned for 230gr ball ammo is truly happy with lighter loads. Both wt and powder.

For EDC, I use a Glock 30SF. Like the Springfield, it eats everything I've put in it. Currently got a Black Hills product in the magazines.
Cheers,
Steve

The Caspian is tuned completely to wad cutter loads by the USMC Pistol Team pistol-smith. -- that was my guess as most 1911's won't feed wadcutters without modification.



Glocks are great. I would carry them if they fit my hand. 1911's are picky beasts, especially highly tuned ones. They may or may not function with different loads depending on the particular gun.

Black Hills makes good stuff. I use them in most of my magazine articles. I just tested a Nighthawk 1911 two weeks ago for an article with three different ammo options. The BH produced the lowest speed deviation, by far, of the three.

[willtill]

My RIA M1911A1 will only feed ball reliably. Was going to send it back to them... but the literature had stated that it's only guaranteed to feed ball, not hollow points. Not sure if Armscor would still look at it and tune it for that. The are fabled for good customer service though...

[Davidk]

My RIA M1911A1 will only feed ball reliably. Was going to send it back to them... but the literature had stated that it's only guaranteed to feed ball, not hollow points. Not sure if Armscor would still look at it and tune it for that. The are fabled for good customer service though...

Commercial 1911s tend to be ammo sensitive. 1911s were designed in an age of hand-fitting. The military ones were very loose fit on purpose to increase reliability, but the fit also reduced accuracy. The process does not work as well when translated to modern machining. The most reliable 1911s are still all hand-fit, but are very expensive. The Nighthawk that I just wrote the article on is $3800. On the other hand, modern pistols such as the XD, S&W, Glocks, Sig, HK etc, don't seem to be ammo sensitive and are more reliable than most 1911s.

[stroguy]

My RIA M1911A1 will only feed ball reliably. Was going to send it back to them... but the literature had stated that it's only guaranteed to feed ball, not hollow points. Not sure if Armscor would still look at it and tune it for that. The are fabled for good customer service though...

Try Federal Guard Dog ammo in .45 or 9MM. It's a hollow point with a cover to feed into a 1911 short feed ramp. I personall would not carry a RIA1911, I have one, love it for a plinker but not as an EDC. A good G19 Gen 3 costs about the same. Good luck.

[Davidk]

Try Federal Guard Dog ammo in .45 or 9MM. It's a hollow point with a cover to feed into a 1911 short feed ramp. I personall would not carry a RIA1911, I have one, love it for a plinker but not as an EDC. A good G19 Gen 3 costs about the same. Good luck.

Another option is Corbon's Powerball. It is an expanding, round nose. I agree, I prefer higher capacity handguns that are not ammo sensitive. S&W M&P, HK VP9, Springfield XDs, Sig P320, Glocks are all great choices.

[stroguy]

Agreed, striker fire with no external safeties or a Sig.

[willtill]

Try Federal Guard Dog ammo in .45 or 9MM. It's a hollow point with a cover to feed into a 1911 short feed ramp. I personall would not carry a RIA1911, I have one, love it for a plinker but not as an EDC. A good G19 Gen 3 costs about the same. Good luck.


Another option is Corbon's Powerball. It is an expanding, round nose. I agree, I prefer higher capacity handguns that are not ammo sensitive. S&W M&P, HK VP9, Springfield XDs, Sig P320, Glocks are all great choices.

Yes, I have seen the above ammo before, but have not tried it. For the record, I don't carry because it's damned near impossible to get a CCP in Maryland. I've been wanting to get a non-resident Utah permit but really haven't had the need to carry outside of Maryland. When I do eventually move to a state with Freedom, I will most likely apply for a CCP.

My RIA is for recreational shooting... I wouldn't to CC with it due to the size of it.. would want something smaller and less printable.

[Davidk]

Agreed, striker fire with no external safeties or a Sig.

Personally, I never got into Sigs double action triggers, though, I just bought their P320 which is a striker

[stroguy]

Should have read, a striker fire because of no external safties....oops. Sig is an animal that takes practice but many enjoy it because the first shot has a strong trigger pull and less chance of an inadvertent discharge. Ummmmmm, ok. I say better trigger discipline but I understand.

[Davidk]

Should have read, a striker fire because of no external safties....oops. Sig is an animal that takes practice but many enjoy it because the first shot has a strong trigger pull and less chance of an inadvertent discharge. Ummmmmm, ok. I say better trigger discipline but I understand.


Some striker guns do have safeties! I know that S&W M&P has a version with a safety. Some of the micro guns do as well

[stroguy]

Some do fursure. For the most part though strikers rely on 'keep your finger off the trigger' rule. Did I also mention to avoid Kimber 1911's. Let's see what that stirs up.

[Davidk]

Some do fursure. For the most part though strikers rely on 'keep your finger off the trigger' rule. Did I also mention to avoid Kimber 1911's. Let's see what that stirs up.

You are well informed, Kimbers have been having problems for several years and I would never buy one. There's not a lot of commercial 1911s that are accurate and reliable. I own two, a custom, hand-built one and one that I hand-built myself during a weeklong gunsmithing class.

While highly NOT recommended, strikers can sustain a decent amount of pressure before going off. It is in between a single action trigger like a 1911, and a double action. While you should always practice keeping your finger off the trigger, it has been proven that under stress, the trigger finger subconsciously wonders onto the trigger. Under stress, a light single-action trigger is a liability. I go into much more detail on that in my book. That's why John Farman calls 1911s the best gun there is for shooting someone, but the worst gun for not shooting someone.

Either way, I don't like 1911s because of their low capacity. MY XD is 13+1, compared to 8+1 of the 1911. Considering all of the increasing social, large-group unrest of the BLMUSBB (Black lives matter unless shot by blacks) I am strongly considering packing my Sig 320 in 9mm with 21-round mags. With two spare mags on my belt, that's 64 rounds!

[Pap]

While this thread is jacked, I thought I'd ask about personally reloaded personal defense rounds. Legal to use or are only Factory legal?

[Davidk]

While this thread is jacked, I thought I'd ask about personally reloaded personal defense rounds. Legal to use or are only Factory legal?


Yes reloads are legal to carry, but not recommended.

1. Reloads are not as reliable as quality, factory ammo. In every training class there is a least one person with bad ammo and its always reloads. Yup, I know, not MY reloads, they always fire—I hear it all the time. I reload myself, quality factory ammo is more reliable.

2. The feds keep a store of every brand of ammo in every lot. It can be used to compare and verify your story in a shooting. Such as comparing power burn size, expansion, etc. They can’t verify the facts about your ammo when you use reloads.

Its actually recommended to keep the box of your carry ammo so the feds know what lot you used so they can make exact comparisons.

3 Reloads open you up to attack by a prosecutor telling the jury that you wanted to make your own ammo so you can make it more deadly than you can buy. Once the jury hears that, it does not matter whether its true or not. Think there is no such thing as a lying prosecutor?

Use reloads for practice, factory for carry.

[willtill]

I reload .50 cal for my Barrett, and 300wsm. I reload because my ammunition is much more accurate than factory ammunition (proven repeatedly with tighter shot groups).

Cheaper too. Especially for my .50 ....and my reloads ALWAYS go bang.

[Davidk]

I reload .50 cal for my Barrett, and 300wsm. I reload because my ammunition is much more accurate than factory ammunition (proven repeatedly with tighter shot groups).

Cheaper too. Especially for my .50 ....and my reloads ALWAYS go bang.


Agreed. I reload 38, 44 and 45 for value and 6.5 Creedmoor and .338 Lapua Mag for precision. My last 6.5 reload group was .3 inches. Trying to get to 1/4

[stroguy]

3 Reloads open you up to attack by a prosecutor telling the jury that you wanted to make your own ammo so you can make it more deadly than you can buy. Once the jury hears that, it does not matter whether its true or not. Think there is no such thing as a lying prosecutor?

Use reloads for practice, factory for carry.

I agree that factory loads are more reliable but I do not agree with the premise of a prosecutor swaying a jury with that comment. First a grand jury would have to see merit in a self-defense case needing to come before a jury. Then, a gun is already a deadly weapon and when used as I was taught in the military and taught now in my continued training, when I shoot, I shoot to kill. The best way to stop a threat is to kill it dead, it don't get stopped much better than that. If I decide to not carry a gun for protection but instead a knife which is legal size under state law am I not allowed to sharpen the knife? Could a prosecutor tell a jury that I sharpened the knife to be a more deadly weapon? No, just more effective at the intended purpose.

[Davidk]

I agree that factory loads are more reliable but I do not agree with the premise of a prosecutor swaying a jury with that comment. First a grand jury would have to see merit in a self-defense case needing to come before a jury. Then, a gun is already a deadly weapon and when used as I was taught in the military and taught now in my continued training, when I shoot, I shoot to kill. The best way to stop a threat is to kill it dead, it don't get stopped much better than that. If I decide to not carry a gun for protection but instead a knife which is legal size under state law am I not allowed to sharpen the knife? Could a prosecutor tell a jury that I sharpened the knife to be a more deadly weapon? No, just more effective at the intended purpose.


I completely agree with your reasoning, I didn't say that it was correct, I said that the prosecutor will try to use it against you. You have to remember who is in the jury, it is NOT a jury of our peers as they tell you, it is not a jury of people that carry guns for protection. I grant you that mostly depends on where you live, but even most gun owners are not truly knowledgable. I know lots of gun owners that are against "assault weapons," mostly because they are clueless. The percentage of gun owners that actually do any training is tiny.

Your arguments are correct, but to a non gun person they can make a lot of sense. A prosecutor's job is to make you look like a vicious killer and anything that puts a crack in your defense in the eyes of the jury helps him convict you. The less guilty you are, the more the prosecutor will lie and use dirty tricks. Enough cracks in your defense and you become guilty. Same reason that I won't carry a knife that says "Annihilator" on it. The knife is no more deadly with that name, its how the prosecutor will paint you with it. I know some experts that carry a pink knife because it will look less deadly to ignorant jury members. Remember, AR15s are vilified because of their color. The same rifle in a wood stock looks pretty instead of scary to the ignorant.

It's is not about what is correct or not, its how a prosecutor can vilify you in the eyes of a clueless jury. Here's a good example of a dirty trick: A prosecutor will say something to the jury or ask a leading and illegal question to a witness even though he knows that it will be objected to and stricken from the record. The jury will to be told to disregard it, but its too late, it will never be forgotten.

If we are forced into a situation where lethal force needs to be applied, we should do so in a manner which gives as little “ammunition” as possible to the prosecutor to use against us. Sure, we can bring in experts to counter the lies of the prosecutor, but regardless of the strength our counter arguments, the truth is no guarantee that we will change the minds of the jury. Not a lot of point of winning the gunfight only to be hung by the jury.

Remember the old saying that “a grand jury could indict a ham sandwich?” That’s because a grand jury is a one-way street. The prosecutor presents his lies and there is no defense allowed. Indictments are all but guaranteed.

[F6B1911]

Yes reloads are legal to carry, but not recommended.

1. Reloads are not as reliable as quality, factory ammo. In every training class there is a least one person with bad ammo and its always reloads. Yup, I know, not MY reloads, they always fire—I hear it all the time. I reload myself, quality factory ammo is more reliable.


Hmmm,
I'd have to argue that one with you....
After reloading for almost 20 years, I'll put my reloads up against any factory ammo you want.
I spent the past few weeks at Camp Perry, not sure I saw any factory ammo there, don't think many would shoot over 300 yards that wasn't done by a meticulous hand loader.

[Sorcerer]

I was instructed in my first permit class and in my renewal class that the propper verbage was " I shot to stop the threat". If I wanted to help the DA convict me to say " stop or I'll kill you" or "I'm going to shoot you". Alway say "stop, leave me alone".

[Davidk]

Hmmm,
I'd have to argue that one with you....
After reloading for almost 20 years, I'll put my reloads up against any factory ammo you want.
I spent the past few weeks at Camp Perry, not sure I saw any factory ammo there, don't think many would shoot over 300 yards that wasn't done by a meticulous hand loader.

Every class I have taught or attended where people had ammo problems, they were reloads. People hand loading one at a time tend to make good ammo. My precision reloads are better than factory, no so when I crank out 1000 rounds on a progressive press.

i know many national level trainers and all recommend against reloads for the reasons that i stated

[Davidk]

I was instructed in my first permit class and in my renewal class that the propper verbage was " I shot to stop the threat". If I wanted to help the DA convict me to say " stop or I'll kill you" or "I'm going to shoot you". Alway say "stop, leave me alone".


Absolutely. Keep shooting until the threat stops. Prosecutor: Why did you shoot him eight times? Defensive shooter: Because 7 wasn't enough and 9 was too many.

[Sorcerer]

Hmmm,
I'd have to argue that one with you....
After reloading for almost 20 years, I'll put my reloads up against any factory ammo you want.
I spent the past few weeks at Camp Perry, not sure I saw any factory ammo there, don't think many would shoot over 300 yards that wasn't done by a meticulous hand loader.

I think you may be mixing long range (although 300 yards is not all that long for a long gun)shooting with self defense hand guns.

[stroguy]

Well, I see your reasoning, just don't agree with it. I don't want to live in that realm of paranoia. Wouldn't it just escalate to a point where I should be worried about carrying a 44 when a prosecutor could argue that a 32 would have done the same job and I just wanted to cause undue harm and guaranteed death? When it comes to my families safety and my safety, there is no worry or paranoia on the ammo or caliber I select. I shoot to kill, not to mame or warn........I'll leave that idiocy for Hollywood and the libtards.

[Davidk]

Well, I see your reasoning, just don't agree with it. I don't want to live in that realm of paranoia. Wouldn't it just escalate to a point where I should be worried about carrying a 44 when a prosecutor could argue that a 32 would have done the same job and I just wanted to cause undue harm and guaranteed death? When it comes to my families safety and my safety, there is no worry or paranoia on the ammo or caliber I select. I shoot to kill, not to mame or warn........I'll leave that idiocy for Hollywood and the libtards.


Firearms training, including the use of force is my profession. Most of my training in this legal area comes from the top expert in the country on the legality of the use of force, Massad Ayoob. You should consider taking some classes from him.

[stroguy]

Seen plenty of Massad, good man, good information. I use his revolver reload religiously. I also train with an instructor with years of law enforcement and military and Blackwater training. I train with other educated professionals as well and the idea that any one of us would worry about a hot reload being used against us in a court of law never crosses our mind. Tomorrow is our regular Thursday class night and at Mexican dinner afterwards I will formally throw this on the table in between our hatred of hillary discussion and reloading for the next long range tournament.

[Davidk]

Seen plenty of Massad, good man, good information. I use his revolver reload religiously. I also train with an instructor with years of law enforcement and military and Blackwater training. I train with other educated professionals as well and the idea that any one of us would worry about a hot reload being used against us in a court of law never crosses our mind. Tomorrow is our regular Thursday class night and at Mexican dinner afterwards I will formally throw this on the table in between our hatred of hillary discussion and reloading for the next long range tournament.

I know Ayoob and his training well. He wrote the forword for my book. My proudest accomplishment in the field of training was Ayoob quoting me in a few of his articles :)

That's great that you are doing that training, but the issues that I brought up are unkown to most LE and Mil as they are not usually effected by them. Ayoob specializes in training and defending private citizens and the issues they face. Le and Mil dont face the same issues

Ayoob has mor knowledge and experience than anyone else in the county. He was the pioneer of firearms training for private citizens decades ago. When I started training there were not more than a handful of trainers in the country. Nothing like today

[stroguy]

LE and MIL are also not in the business to make money. Don't take this wrong but Massad is in this business to make money, as is Larry Vickers, Hackerthorn my Thursday night instructor Aaron Roberts. Creating a level of paranoia is a subconscious effort used by anyone in this type of business. Scaring folks sells. I am glad you have written a book and are in this profession I respect. But you also must create a level of apprehension and doubt on the average citizen or your book wouldn't be popular, if it is. I push back just a little bit because in reality when the shit hits the fan in the Wallyworld parking lot, the bad guy isn't playing by any rules, and one of us has to go home that night, preferably me. And if I believe a hot reload may be needed to go through two car doors to complete my protection if I am in that situation, then a hot reload is what I will carry in my firearm. I'll give you the results of our dinner discussion tomorrow. I'll save the hillaree battering to myself, it makes me sleep better. Good discussion David.

[Davidk]

LE and MIL are also not in the business to make money. Don't take this wrong but Massad is in this business to make money, as is Larry Vickers, Hackerthorn my Thursday night instructor Aaron Roberts. Creating a level of paranoia is a subconscious effort used by anyone in this type of business. Scaring folks sells. I am glad you have written a book and are in this profession I respect. But you also must create a level of apprehension and doubt on the average citizen or your book wouldn't be popular, if it is. I push back just a little bit because in reality when the shit hits the fan in the Wallyworld parking lot, the bad guy isn't playing by any rules, and one of us has to go home that night, preferably me. And if I believe a hot reload may be needed to go through two car doors to complete my protection if I am in that situation, then a hot reload is what I will carry in my firearm. I'll give you the results of our dinner discussion tomorrow. I'll save the hillaree battering to myself, it makes me sleep better. Good discussion David.


You obvously have training in the field and are a smart guy, but with all due respect, I, Ayoob, Vickers, Hackathorn (both of whom I also know) dont make money by creating doubt and apprehension, we make money solving doubt and apprehension

The fact that we make money does not negate the value of our teachings. We don't make stuff up to sell books. I teach what I live and live what I teach.

How will you explain it to the jury when your hot reload, loaded to be hotter than anything available by professional manufacturers, goes through two car doors and kills a 2-year old? Really think your reloads won't be used to convict you?

I've stated my case, the decision is up to you.

Oh, and by the way, how am I creating doubt and apprehension in order to make money, by giving you free advice?

[stroguy]

Oh lord, nevermind David. But you can't admit that TV shows that depict ultra dramatic self defense scenarios that the odds say are never going to happen to you aren't trying to create a bit of fear in the average Joe or Jane? I carry everyday I can, but I admit and am honest with myself that the odds say it most likely will never happen to me. You should be able to admit that the self defense industry has become an unbelievable industry that has exploded in profits for gun makers, holster makers, purse makers, ammo makers and on and on. Well guess how that industry, that you are in, explodes? They create the atmosphere that 'it can happen to you' and you better be prepared. That creates doubt and apprehension in the average JJ that they aren't ready. You solving that doubt and apprehension doesn't make you a salary? Buy my gun, buy my holster, buy my DVD, come to my workshop. When in reality the violent crime rate in this country has taken a big down turn over the last 20 years. And the reason? In Spring TX there about 10-15 violent crimes per month committed in the area that our local paper reports. Out of nearly 80,000 people, again, what are the odds that it will happen to me? I am prepared if it does, but why do we need to create this paranoia in Americans? Oh, wait, we can make profits from that. I'll check out of this argument but if you would please do me one favor and cite a few examples of case law where this scenario has happened. Someone using the incorrect ammo or any device outside of it's design parameters to defend themselves has been prosecuted. I need to read them so I can be better educated. Secondly, I said 'don't take this wrong'. You did. No insults were intended, but your self righteous blinders are on a bit tight. I am as self-righteous as they come, but am also pretty damn honest with myself.

Have a great day.

[willtill]

Oh lord, nevermind David. But you can't admit that TV shows that depict ultra dramatic self defense scenarios that the odds say are never going to happen to you aren't trying to create a bit of fear in the average Joe or Jane? I carry everyday I can, but I admit and am honest with myself that the odds say it most likely will never happen to me. You should be able to admit that the self defense industry has become an unbelievable industry that has exploded in profits for gun makers, holster makers, purse makers, ammo makers and on and on. Well guess how that industry, that you are in, explodes? They create the atmosphere that 'it can happen to you' and you better be prepared. That creates doubt and apprehension in the average JJ that they aren't ready. You solving that doubt and apprehension doesn't make you a salary? Buy my gun, buy my holster, buy my DVD, come to my workshop. When in reality the violent crime rate in this country has taken a big down turn over the last 20 years. And the reason? In Spring TX there about 10-15 violent crimes per month committed in the area that our local paper reports. Out of nearly 80,000 people, again, what are the odds that it will happen to me? I am prepared if it does, but why do we need to create this paranoia in Americans? Oh, wait, we can make profits from that. I'll check out of this argument but if you would please do me one favor and cite a few examples of case law where this scenario has happened. Someone using the incorrect ammo or any device outside of it's design parameters to defend themselves has been prosecuted. I need to read them so I can be better educated. Secondly, I said 'don't take this wrong'. You did. No insults were intended, but your self righteous blinders are on a bit tight. I am as self-righteous as they come, but am also pretty damn honest with myself.

Have a great day.

NICE post :clap2:

There are some of us that CAN see the forest for the tree's. :icon_wink:

[Davidk]

Oh lord, nevermind David. But you can't admit that TV shows that depict ultra dramatic self defense scenarios that the odds say are never going to happen to you aren't trying to create a bit of fear in the average Joe or Jane? I carry everyday I can, but I admit and am honest with myself that the odds say it most likely will never happen to me. You should be able to admit that the self defense industry has become an unbelievable industry that has exploded in profits for gun makers, holster makers, purse makers, ammo makers and on and on. Well guess how that industry, that you are in, explodes? They create the atmosphere that 'it can happen to you' and you better be prepared. That creates doubt and apprehension in the average JJ that they aren't ready. You solving that doubt and apprehension doesn't make you a salary? Buy my gun, buy my holster, buy my DVD, come to my workshop. When in reality the violent crime rate in this country has taken a big down turn over the last 20 years. And the reason? In Spring TX there about 10-15 violent crimes per month committed in the area that our local paper reports. Out of nearly 80,000 people, again, what are the odds that it will happen to me? I am prepared if it does, but why do we need to create this paranoia in Americans? Oh, wait, we can make profits from that. I'll check out of this argument but if you would please do me one favor and cite a few examples of case law where this scenario has happened. Someone using the incorrect ammo or any device outside of it's design parameters to defend themselves has been prosecuted. I need to read them so I can be better educated. Secondly, I said 'don't take this wrong'. You did. No insults were intended, but your self righteous blinders are on a bit tight. I am as self-righteous as they come, but am also pretty damn honest with myself.

Have a great day.


Thanks for showing me that I just wasted a whole lot of time. I will learn from this experience and endeavor to improve myself by trying not to do so again in the future

[53driver]

I need to order more ammo....

[willtill]

I need to order more ammo....

How is .22LR availability in your neck of the woods? Still seemingly rare up here.

[53driver]

How is .22LR availability in your neck of the woods? Still seemingly rare up here.

Hit and miss at Wally world. Was there in quantity last time I looked (a month ago?) Federal or Remington - good for my plinking.

However, I usually order Eley or Fiocchi

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1392394363/eley-tenex-pistol-ammunition-22-long-rifle-40-grain-lead-round-nose
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1836444697/fiocchi-exacta-rifle-super-match-ammunition-22-long-rifle-40-grain-lead-round-nose

match grade ammo as the wife's match weapons can be more than particular in their diet.
Cheers,
Steve

[stroguy]

Thanks for showing me that I just wasted a whole lot of time. I will learn from this experience and endeavor to improve myself by trying not to do so again in the future

Well if you can educate me on those case laws, I would not consider it a waste of your time and I would be beyond appreciative. Because I prefer to know what can happen and evaluate my needs from there. In my CHL class one full hour of the class was dedicated to a law firm coming in and drowning the class with the fear of legal coverage needed in case of a self-defense issue. Out of 40 trainees, 38 of them bought the insurance that day from the sheer paranoia this law firm vomited to the class. At nearly $300 a pop, that law firm made a pretty penny in that hour. Curious how many of those buyers will ever need that insurance? My next door neighbor and I were the two that declined until we could do further research.

[stroguy]

Personally, I never got into Sigs double action triggers, though, I just bought their P320 which is a striker

What do you know, I found one just before class last night in FDE. It is now mine. Couldn't resist the color.