Audio enhancement perma-grin style

[CoCoKola]

.. Forgive my spelling and grammar issues, it is hard writing this on my cell phone..

This thread details the phase II audio upgrade proof of concept.

I've been tinkering with the audio system for longer than I'm willing to admit, but let's just say I'm very pleased with the results thus far - this is still a work in progress. Jimmytee, Morpheous, and others paved the way and I thank everyone on this forum for all your help making my bike the ultimate experience.

I would suggest familiarizing yourself with the audio upgrade sticky that Jimmytee put together. It's a wonderful read and learning experience.

I'm pressed for time, so I'll provide basics and update this post with more details, explanations, spl and fft based measurements, and photos when time permits. I'm looking forward to the rally to learn more from others and share what I've created.

I was looking for a system that wasn't loud, but instead the clarity I've come to know and love working in live sound. Achieving this on a motorcycle is quite a challenge, with power, space, and the worst signal-to-noise levels to overcome. I spent a while talking to the experts in car audio, manufactures, and even some who specialize in motorcycle audio.

I started down the path of using Arc Audio poweramps, but then I was introduced to the Audison Prima line of OEM based DSP and amp integration.

I ended up purchasing an Audison Prima 8.9 (http://www.audison.eu/index.php?page=product&id=50) DSP/Amp. It has amazing abilities using a Windows laptop you can tweak evening from driver delay, complete crossover setup and type, multi-parametric eq per output, de-equalization, sub and woofer boost limiting, and 6 inputs. You can bridge in pairs of the 8 outputs, giving you 4 clean 130 watt RMS at 2 ohmd plus a sub out. The DRC controller allows two setup recalls, I'm using one for parked, and the other save point when I'm riding. I paired this amp with a Audison 1D (http://www.audison.eu/index.php?page=product&id=54) 540 watts at 2 ohms for subwoofer duty.

I ran into gain issues that ultimately were solved with the added DRC controller that gives you incredible control over the units. The list price of the 8.9 is about 1200,
Plus another 400 for the second amp and 200 controller. I'm running two way active setup with the following, and it is capable of what I'm after. I'm still dialing in the dsp settings.


I paired this with Hertz mpx 165 (http://www.hertzaudiovideo.com/car-audio-coaxials-mille-pro-mpx165-3/) p2 engy series {note, box says this but they are 5 1/4 not 6.5 - I'm checking facts) Getting these to fit was a challenge, but they sound amazing, they are able to push enough clean output to satisfy. They are installed in boats by pro audio. I was told only marine grade needed if you are in Salt water, although I would recommend not power washing these. (Again, note I'm almost certain I have 5 1/4 inch, not 6.5 so hang tight before purchasing)

Another excellent choice is Focal 5 1/4s. These both require speaker spacers, and I opted to make them out of HPDE instead of abs or mdf for their stiffness and weather proofing. They also self-prime and work well with wood cutting tools. More on that later.

Stay tuned for more.. Some teaser photos.

1. Comparison - left to right of Hertz mpx 165, Polk 6501, j&m m]ark2, stock speakers
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2. Speaker spacer compared to oem
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3. Mid bass mounted with spaces and baffles
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More to come..

Graph of head unit oem equalization (de-equalization)
Gain setup and challenges
Configuration screen from 8.9
Tweeter installation
Wiring suggestions
Amp install and clean wiring {in progress}
You may not want to remove the stock amp if you don't use the controller and why.
Phase III :subwoofer
Considering providing speaker spacers, 8.9 Configs, parts used for mounting etc if others are interested

Bedtime for now.. Not sure how to fix the one image missing, nor how to delete the rotated photo at the bottom. I think I found a bug on the forum, as I could edit them until getting to five photos, now new attachments can't be removed...

Robert Van Zandt

[Jimmytee]

Look forward to more. Will you be done in time for the Rally? You've surely invested a lot more money than I have. Really look forward to hearing your results. I think I have somewhere from $1200 to $1500 total invested in mine. That may go up if I decide to paint this winter, as I was also thinking of a couple other ideas.
I understand the "gain " issues. I believe you ran into the same issues I was having with trying to use adapters or the low impedance/high level inputs of the amp. That was the catalyst for digging in and bypassing/removing the factory amp from the signal chain. Of course, now I don't have any of the factory audio on the bike.

[CoCoKola]

Look forward to more. Will you be done in time for the Rally? You've surely invested a lot more money than I have. Really look forward to hearing your results. I think I have somewhere from $1200 to $1500 total invested in mine. That may go up if I decide to paint this winter, as I was also thinking of a couple other ideas.
I understand the "gain " issues. I believe you ran into the same issues I was having with trying to use adapters or the low impedance/high level inputs of the amp. That was the catalyst for digging in and bypassing/removing the factory amp from the signal chain. Of course, now I don't have any of the factory audio on the bike.

A clarion 3 way xover 79 plus arc audio amp 400 plus hertz speakers 200 to 350 for about 700 you have a similar setup but with more space used and many features lost. Running active two way plus the hertz speakers is a massive improvement over anything else i tested. The hertz running with included xover on a beefy amp would be the true budget version. I'm so impressed with the hertz - in Europe they are the competition winners in pro car audio.

I'm excited to try the w7 8 inch when I return. I'm concerned about the 25lbs opposite to the kickstand, but I'm testing that today.

Cheers!

[Jimmytee]

A clarion 3 way xover 79 plus arc audio amp 400 plus hertz speakers 200 to 350 for about 700 you have a similar setup but with more space used and many features lost. Running active two way plus the hertz speakers is a massive improvement over anything else i tested. The hertz running with included xover on a beefy amp would be the true budget version. I'm so impressed with the hertz - in Europe they are the competition winners in pro car audio.

I'm excited to try the w7 8 inch when I return. I'm concerned about the 25lbs opposite to the kickstand, but I'm testing that today.

Cheers!
I'm lost when you say many features lost. I've got way more features than anyone using the stock OEM electronics for a source.

[CoCoKola]

I'm lost when you say many features lost. I've got way more features than anyone using the stock OEM electronics for a source.

I was comparing the Audison with the dsp vs. Standard amp plus xover.
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I'm looking forward to seeing those Bluetooth controller and system. I didn't understand do the bluetooth controllers basically give you start, stop, next, previous and volume control over your phone? I know you went with a compete replacement, which i would also like to see. Nothing limiting you there. I preferred an integrated solution.

I measured the system, it is capable of 120dB+ without the sub included, 113+dB at rider position. Plenty of clarity. I also competed time alignment of the tweeters and mid bass drivers. The phase graph looked better than I expected.

[Jimmytee]

I was comparing the Audison with the dsp vs. Standard amp plus xover.
23338

I'm looking forward to seeing those Bluetooth controller and system. I didn't understand do the bluetooth controllers basically give you start, stop, next, previous and volume control over your phone? I know you went with a compete replacement, which i would also like to see. Nothing limiting you there. I preferred an integrated solution.

I measured the system, it is capable of 120dB+ without the sub included, 113+dB at rider position. Plenty of clarity. I also competed time alignment of the tweeters and mid bass drivers. The phase graph looked better than I expected.

I not sure you fully understand, I don't have ANY of the OEM electronics. I have a Clarion front end that has Bluetooth, Sirius XM etc.... So yeah I have full control...:icon_cool: My sub is run through the Sub pre put of the Clarion, etc... I'm sure you have more flexibility in adjusting your sound with an active crossover though. Look forward to seeing and hearing it. Will you have the sub done for the Rally?

[CoCoKola]

.. Will you have the sub done for the Rally?

Yes, I have the 6.5" sub working with the 1d Audison amp. Post rally I'll continue to develop a more powerful sub solution based on others' developments.

I'm very pleased with the stock radio's sound, and that's not using the de-equalization feature, yet. The de-eq uses pink nose (sound that contains all possible frequencies at once) played via a CD {I used a laptop connected to the aux input} to map out any deficiencies of the head unit. For example, the head unit has a large dip at 100Hz which would make use of a sub amp to not perform as well as expected without 100Hz boost.

Audison makes a less expensive 4.9 or 5.9 as well which has 4 channels or a 5th channel with ~230watts rms for a sub. They both have a pre-out for a sub amp to be added later if needed.

It is truely the latest in top audio capability, and the unit is not much larger than the NVX MVP4 amp.

I'm looking forward to hearing everyone's setup! Thanks again for paving the way. This setup is the best upgrade I've done to the F6B. The led headlights made a huge difference as well to making the F6B my favorite way to get somewhere, or even nowhere! :cheers:

[Jimmytee]

Yes, I have the 6.5" sub working with the 1d Audison amp. Post rally I'll continue to develop a more powerful sub solution based on others' developments.

I'm very pleased with the stock radio's sound, and that's not using the de-equalization feature, yet. The de-eq uses pink nose (sound that contains all possible frequencies at once) played via a CD {I used a laptop connected to the aux input} to map out any deficiencies of the head unit. For example, the head unit has a large dip at 100Hz which would make use of a sub amp to not perform as well as expected without 100Hz boost.

Audison makes a less expensive 4.9 or 5.9 as well which has 4 channels or a 5th channel with ~230watts rms for a sub. They both have a pre-out for a sub amp to be added later if needed.

It is truely the latest in top audio capability, and the unit is not much larger than the NVX MVP4 amp.

I'm looking forward to hearing everyone's setup! Thanks again for paving the way. This setup is the best upgrade I've done to the F6B. The led headlights made a huge difference as well to making the F6B my favorite way to get somewhere, or even nowhere! :cheers:

The biggest difference in sound quality from changing to the Clarion, was in clarity and stereo separation. Definitely improved stereo imaging and soundstage.

[Redlinez]

Um, these things are sick. You guys rock for helping someone go broke.....I hate the stock stereo sound.
https://www.facebook.com/100006591395702/videos/1728471670715863/

[CoCoKola]

Um, these things are sick. You guys rock for helping someone go broke.....I hate the stock stereo sound.
https://www.facebook.com/100006591395702/videos/1728471670715863/

Ok, the Hertz box I had was indeed the wrong model. I have the hsk 130s. I left home so couldn't be certain. They are actually a step up from the speakers linked above, but a 5 1/4. These have won competitions.

That video does not surprise me at all. These speakers are fing incredible. The difference from the 6501 mm are night and day, not that the 6501 are bad at all.. The interface to make changes is fun too.

[Audiochris90]

Pressorv, can you talk about the speaker fitment, what was involved? Also im i correct in assuming the track and volume controls on the handlebars are defeated?

[Redlinez]

So you had to deal with separates and crossovers? I would rather stick with a two way just for the simplicity of the swap. Man, you can really dump a lot of coin in one of these bikes between audio, exhaust, windshield, seat, and accessories! Reminds me of my car.

[Audiochris90]

Please continue this thread. The JBL upgrade was great. But thinking of taking the B to a custom audio shop to get more ideas. I like the feature of a stock stereo controls on the bars, so an amp that could tap into the oem system, then run new gauge wire to speakers , and a removable sub is what id like. Please more info. Thanks.

[CoCoKola]

Please continue this thread. The JBL upgrade was great.... I like the feature of a stock stereo controls on the bars, so an amp that could tap into the oem system, then run new gauge wire to speakers , and a removable sub is what id like. Please more info. Thanks.

Well, that's exactly what you get!

The beauty of this solution is you keep your handlebar controls. In fact, you continue using the stock system like you always have, except it kicks ass depending on where you mount the remote, you have a sleeper radio system. No one looking at my bike parked would know.

You don't have to modify the speakers to fit, you only need a riser plate so the rare earth magnet the size of the whole stock speakers (slight exaggeration , but not far off) will not bottom out. The stock grill cover fits on with minimal trimming.

It is easy, and you have no external crossover to deal with - it is all handled by the amp. You simply run 4 wires to left, 4 to right. 14 guage - two for mid bass, two for tweeter. The tweeters epoxy to the stock tweeter position. I have sone final fit and finish to work out, but that's the gist of it.

Btw, I nearly won a loud stereo competition at pickleheads.. Goat deejay from full throttle Sturgis voted my rig was the clearest / no distortion with the best bass against many custom bikes.
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[Jimmytee]

Well, that's exactly what you get!

The beauty of this solution is you keep your handlebar controls. In fact, you continue using the stock system like you always have, except it kicks ass depending on where you mount the remote, you have a sleeper radio system. No one looking at my bike parked would know.

You don't have to modify the speakers to fit, you only need a riser plate so the rare earth magnet the size of the whole stock speakers (slight exaggeration , but not far off) will not bottom out. The stock grill cover fits on with minimal trimming.

It is easy, and you have no external crossover to deal with - it is all handled by the amp. You simply run 4 wires to left, 4 to right. 14 guage - two for mid bass, two for tweeter. The tweeters epoxy to the stock tweeter position. I have sone final fit and finish to work out, but that's the gist of it.

Btw, I nearly won a loud stereo competition at pickleheads.. Goat deejay from full throttle Sturgis voted my rig was the clearest / no distortion with the best bass against many custom bikes.
23388
Will leaving this morning for the Rally. Probably roll in tomorrow. Taking a meandering route. Look forward to checking your system out.

[F6Pilot]

After listening to JimmyTee's and Pressorv's bikes at the rally, I will state that you both have done a lot of work and created awesome sound systems. It prompted me to start researching more realistic options for my sound as I have neither the time nor the inclination to attempt your levels. I have already replaced the stock speakers twice, first with J&M and now with the JBL set everyone discussed, but would like a little more without breaking the bank or losing a saddlebag.

I ran across this article during my initial search and wonder what anyone's thoughts are.

http://www.wssdriveeasy.com/gold-wing-motorcycle-audio-upgrades/

[CoCoKola]

So you had to deal with separates and crossovers? I would rather stick with a two way just for the simplicity of the swap. Man, you can really dump a lot of coin in one of these bikes between audio, exhaust, windshield, seat, and accessories! Reminds me of my car.

It is quite simple: swap mid bass and tweeters, run a 4 conductor 14 gauge speaker cable to the amp. Pitch the included xovers.

[CoCoKola]

After listening to JimmyTee's and Pressorv's bikes at the rally, I will state that you both have done a lot of work and created awesome sound systems. It prompted me to start researching more realistic options for my sound as I have neither the time nor the inclination to attempt your levels. I have already replaced the stock speakers twice, first with J&M and now with the JBL set everyone discussed, but would like a little more without breaking the bank or losing a saddlebag.

I ran across this article during my initial search and wonder what anyone's thoughts are.

http://www.wssdriveeasy.com/gold-wing-motorcycle-audio-upgrades/

This is the same article I found and was going to buy the arc amp. The pro audio place said it was a great amp, (specs looked good} and they go for about 300 if you shop around. My tech knew this installer and called him to discuss, they both said that was top of the line five years ago. The bass enhancement is similar to the head unit's build in boost (the off, low, high setting on your tune knob.)

The speakers with an amp is, imho, the best option for a best cost/performance ratio. I mentioned this setup in my original post above, although to be fair the speakers listed are a step down and is not a large cost savings.

The speakers don't require any fitting/ cuts, but you will need a half inch spacer to fit the magnet. I'm sure you would be happy with the setup.

Another option is to get the Audison prima 4.9 amp and save a few hundred on the amp. I would suggest not removing the stock amp and use the high level inputs instead, otherwise you need to get the controller as well. I'm working with the manufacturer to see if they can provide a firmware update to remove this requirement.

I can help you set up the amp / share the config. I'm also investigating manufacturing the riser needed to seat the speaker.

Finally, to be fair, if you get the prima 8.9, you don't need the second amp or the subwoofer. You can even fit the amp under the seat and not lose any saddlebag space!

{wrote on my cell phone in a hurry, forgive my spelling and grammatical errors..)

[broncsrule21]

I'm sold on those Hertz speakers. Any ideas for a "budget" 2 channel amp? No plans on running a sub. Need to keep stock controls.

[F6Pilot]

This is the same article I found and was going to buy the arc amp. The pro audio place said it was a great amp, (specs looked good} and they go for about 300 if you shop around. My tech knew this installer and called him to discuss, they both said that was top of the line five years ago. The bass enhancement is similar to the head unit's build in boost (the off, low, high setting on your tune knob.)

The speakers with an amp is, imho, the best option for a best cost/performance ratio. I mentioned this setup in my original post above, although to be fair the speakers listed are a step down and is not a large cost savings.

The speakers don't require any fitting/ cuts, but you will need a half inch spacer to fit the magnet. I'm sure you would be happy with the setup.

While I see the merits of the Audison Prima, I don't think I will go that far up the food chain. I may move forward with the Arc if that is the best candidate in that price range. Speaker wise, I believe you are indicating the HSK 130 is the route to take. This is all french to me and I absolutely appreciate you sharing you knowledge.

[CoCoKola]

I'm sold on those Hertz speakers. Any ideas for a "budget" 2 channel amp? No plans on running a sub. Need to keep stock controls.

the Arc Audio amp (http://www.arcaudio.com/p/ks-125-2-bx-mini) is considered top-tier from about five years ago and a strong contender today. It has a circuit that helps sub-bass be 'reproduced' using harmonics that you can try switching on, although I myself would not use it. It is similar to the SRS bass boost already on the F6B albeit better. It is 70 watts RMS per channel and a decent match, albeit at the lower end.

The Audison drives 130watts for the woofer and 130watts for the tweeter, so it's a significant improvement in power and is a vastly superior solution. Don't let the complexity of the Audison concern you, I will be happy to program the unit and wiring notes.
I actually listened to classical music on the way home at 80MPH. I can't say it was like being at the symphony hall, but it was reasonable considering.
I am considering offering to install the whole setup or only program the amp configured & "dialed-in" to your tastes (music type, hearing needs,etc) ould there be any interest? If so, send me a PM. I may reach out to the dealers and see about a group buy or discount.
PS - do not be afraid of the youtube video related "Poor Design" - the video apparently was complaining the unit was causing interference with his head-unit
Thanks all!
Robert

[CoCoKola]

I'll take it no interest here, I'll not put much more time into it.

I do have a question, I'm using the power from the oem amp relay for the accessory on. If i leave the key on acc or on, as in getting ready, 1 out of 100 times i go to start the bike, i get a pulse of noise through the system. The easy fix is turn off the bike for a half second before starting, but would love to eliminate this. I suspect since the power lead is of the relay, the cycle time of the relay comes into play.

I'm going to try another acc switched source.

Other thoughts or suggestions?

I have timing options on the unit to play with as well.

Thanx all,
Robert

[Jimmytee]

Interests come and go. Right now, I assume more people are interested in riding.

[CoCoKola]

Interests come and go. Right now, I assume more people are interested in riding.
Excellent point JimmyT.

I can't get enough riding. I'm reliving my favorite music 🎶, a phenomenon i haven't experienced in a while. Listening to my favorite bands like it is the first time. It happens every time I get an improved sound system. I can't get over how crisp snare sounds on most recordings. It's something many professional systems i run don't quite achieve. I'll never get the low end anywhere near a pro rig, but the vocals, drums and guitars are sexy good.

Oh, and my apologies to whomever was upset about Jimmy and I not finishing the songs at the rally. :icon_frown:

[Papa Tater]

I'm glad to see that you got it going using the OEM head unit , I'm sitting back looking at all the posts so far. About 2 months ago I went and had the pros look at mine and diagnose what makes it tick, I have been wanting to do something similar to Jimmytee, but using the OEM head unit. I had been searching prior to that for gold wing upgraded- amped systems and really nothing out there. Did a lot of research on auto OEM intergration and figured maybe it would work on this motorcycle. The results on diagnostics were similar to autos for equalization and roll offs but with a lot of distortion - off the scale with the factory amp and with the pre amp much better but still roll offs. Also different with motorcycle off and also with motorcycle running. They know that I'm doing my own system and gave me some guidance on what to do to achieve a flat or close to flat I should say OEM intergration. I going more toward a OEM intergration that is simple that analyzes to signal and corrects equalization from the preamp to the added amplifier. I'm hoping to keep it simple and on a lower budget, now seeing what you have done and got great results. I want have the fine tune tweaking that you have, but hope it works with adjustments on the amp, bass and treble settings - also will be adding a subwoofer to the system. Now to pull the trigger and hope it works as planned. I will do a post when I get it done with results- etc.

[CoCoKola]

I'm glad to see that you got it going using the OEM head unit , I'm sitting back looking at all the posts so far. About 2 months ago I went and had the pros look at mine and diagnose what makes it tick, I have been wanting to do something similar to Jimmytee, but using the OEM head unit. I had been searching prior to that for gold wing upgraded- amped systems and really nothing out there. Did a lot of research on auto OEM intergration and figured maybe it would work on this motorcycle. The results on diagnostics were similar to autos for equalization and roll offs but with a lot of distortion - off the scale with the factory amp and with the pre amp much better but still roll offs. Also different with motorcycle off and also with motorcycle running. They know that I'm doing my own system and gave me some guidance on what to do to achieve a flat or close to flat I should say OEM intergration. I going more toward a OEM intergration that is simple that analyzes to signal and corrects equalization from the preamp to the added amplifier. I'm hoping to keep it simple and on a lower budget, now seeing what you have done and got great results. I want have the fine tune tweaking that you have, but hope it works with adjustments on the amp, bass and treble settings - also will be adding a subwoofer to the system. Now to pull the trigger and hope it works as planned. I will do a post when I get it done with results- etc.

All vehicles will be different on battery vs running, as that voltage increases by two volts. You are correct there are many charges to the flat response, which is why most of not all solutions, other than JimmyTs will never sound great. You must get a dsp that cab compensate for the changes. The Audisonl has this built in, so you end up with flat response. Prior to post eq changes it also supports.

For 250, you can get this c-dsp product (https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/c-dsp-6x8)and with some documented magic, you can theoretically achieve the same. This product is not processing at the same high sample rate, but should suffice.

I will post what the curve looks like that comes from the head unit. I can assure you, with the Audison, the overall sound quality is very high with the head unit. I have captured SMAART fft traces comparing the signal output of source device against the measured output of the speakers.

I look forward to learning a less expensive way. That would be a holy grail.
Robert

[JGF6B]

Any audio upgrade posts are interesting to me. I'm hoping to upgrade mine over the winter but I haven't decided which route to take. I'm sure I'll revisit and re-read all of these audio threads.
Keep the info coming.

[Jimmytee]

Hey Robert. eyeballing these. These woofers do have the neodymium magnets. The HSKs , only the tweeters have the neodymium. Sould make fitment a bit easier, but check out that price.:icon_lol:

[willtill]

I ran across this article during my initial search and wonder what anyone's thoughts are.

http://www.wssdriveeasy.com/gold-wing-motorcycle-audio-upgrades/

That shop is not too far from me....

[CoCoKola]

Hey Robert. eyeballing these. These woofers do have the neodymium magnets. The HSKs , only the tweeters have the neodymium. Sould make fitment a bit easier, but check out that price.:icon_lol:

I'll verify - the installer I spoke with stated the mid bass driver was neodymium. I'm surprised to read that..

http://www.ebay.com/itm/252533837361 $289 I bought my set from custom sounds for 199, however, they don't have it listed on their website. I'm wondering if it was a one-off or the like.

I do see the same model as a coaxial hcx 130 sells for 239 on Amazon or other outlets for less. I am trying to verify if you can wire the tweeter separately, although even if not, this is likely tbd best speaker for the money if you don't go audison or dsp active two way.

Stay tuned, I am talking with head of sales to find options for lowering the price, such as purchasing drivers only, quantity purchase, etc.

[Jimmytee]

Most the models of speakers I have looked at have Ferrite magnets on the woofers and Neodymium magnets on the tweeters, The picture you showed me of the speakers lined up, sure looked like the woofer had a ferrite magnet. That would be an extremely big magnet if it were a neodymium on that woofer of yours. No matter, you made it work.:icon_wink:

I have seen the sets on Ebay for $289. Also have seen people post that there are imposters/fake speakers claiming to be Hertz on there so it might be a gamble as to whether you are truly getting an actual Hertz speaker from one of the Ebay stores. Don't know, just passing along the info. WOuld suck to spend hard earned money for a fake, bargain or not.

Amazon has listings but at higher cost. Thinking that if I were to switch, I might want to try the 6.5" though.

[broncsrule21]

the Arc Audio amp (http://www.arcaudio.com/p/ks-125-2-bx-mini) is considered top-tier from about five years ago and a strong contender today. It has a circuit that helps sub-bass be 'reproduced' using harmonics that you can try switching on, although I myself would not use it. It is similar to the SRS bass boost already on the F6B albeit better. It is 70 watts RMS per channel and a decent match, albeit at the lower end.

The Audison drives 130watts for the woofer and 130watts for the tweeter, so it's a significant improvement in power and is a vastly superior solution. Don't let the complexity of the Audison concern you, I will be happy to program the unit and wiring notes.
I actually listened to classical music on the way home at 80MPH. I can't say it was like being at the symphony hall, but it was reasonable considering.
I am considering offering to install the whole setup or only program the amp configured & "dialed-in" to your tastes (music type, hearing needs,etc) ould there be any interest? If so, send me a PM. I may reach out to the dealers and see about a group buy or discount.
PS - do not be afraid of the youtube video related "Poor Design" - the video apparently was complaining the unit was causing interference with his head-unit
Thanks all!
Robert


Your offer to set up these amps is very much appreciated. At this point I am just looking at less expensive options. I'm sure the Audison, set up, sounds fantastic! Right now, its a case of "champagne taste on a beer budget". Thanks again for your generous offer and all the knowledge you have on our specific set up.

[broncsrule21]

I'll verify - the installer I spoke with stated the mid bass driver was neodymium. I'm surprised to read that..

http://www.ebay.com/itm/252533837361 $289 I bought my set from custom sounds for 199, however, they don't have it listed on their website. I'm wondering if it was a one-off or the like.

I do see the same model as a coaxial hcx 130 sells for 239 on Amazon or other outlets for less. I am trying to verify if you can wire the tweeter separately, although even if not, this is likely tbd best speaker for the money if you don't go audison or dsp active two way.

Stay tuned, I am talking with head of sales to find options for lowering the price, such as purchasing drivers only, quantity purchase, etc.

Cool. I will be interested to hear what you get done. The hcx 130 can be had for $189.

[Papa Tater]

All vehicles will be different on battery vs running, as that voltage increases by two volts. You are correct there are many charges to the flat response, which is why most of not all solutions, other than JimmyTs will never sound great. You must get a dsp that cab compensate for the changes. The Audisonl has this built in, so you end up with flat response. Prior to post eq changes it also supports.

For 250, you can get this c-dsp product (https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/c-dsp-6x8)and with some documented magic, you can theoretically achieve the same. This product is not processing at the same high sample rate, but should suffice.

I will post what the curve looks like that comes from the head unit. I can assure you, with the Audison, the overall sound quality is very high with the head unit. I have captured SMAART fft traces comparing the signal output of source device against the measured output of the speakers.

I look forward to learning a less expensive way. That would be a holy grail.
Robert

Thanks , I will check that out as well. I know we all want to achieve good clean sound.

[Jimmytee]

Hey Robert, when you going to get the different sub installed? Looking forward to what your results are.

[CoCoKola]

Hey Robert, when you going to get the different sub installed? Looking forward to what your results are.
I have a few things keeping me away from anything at the moment. I still plan to post more here, and airgun i can hear the bass, today i decided the ability to faithfully produce the kick drum needs improvement. The snare frequency range is one of the best I've heard. So stay tuned..

[F6Pilot]

Well you audio wizards, I just received my ArcAudio KS 125 and the Hertz HSK 130 speakers. Kind of comical since my audio experience has been limited to Crutchfield color matched harnesses and making sure I connect the "+" to the "+", etc. What the hell do I crossover with the crossover anyway? I'm a lost ball in high weeds on this one so I guarantee I will be reaching out to you experts for some insight/direction.

Robert, we probably need to talk about those spacers...

[Jimmytee]

Robert had his made for him I believe from High Density Polyethylene (HDPE) . Not positive. You can buy this in small sheets at different thicknesses.
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=23869&clickid=redirect
You can also buy spacers at various thicknesses.
These are just one example. http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_3324_Metra-82-4300.html

Now the thing about cutting your own is that you can make it exactly as you need and the High density plastic will be much more inert/solid.

[CoCoKola]

Robert had his made for him I believe from High Density Polyethylene (HDPE) . Not positive. You can buy this in small sheets at different thicknesses.
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=23869&clickid=redirect
You can also buy spacers at various thicknesses.
These are just one example. http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_3324_Metra-82-4300.html

Now the thing about cutting your own is that you can make it exactly as you need and the High density plastic will be much more inert/solid.

Yes, I went to the shop to source the material and they offered to cut it. You need a1/2 inch thickness, the box has a template you can use for the inner cutout, and use the oem speaker for the outter template by turning it upside down and draw the outline. I replaced the oem nuts with spring similar to this:spring nuts (https://m.grainger.com/mobile/product/GRAINGER-APPROVED-Spring-Steel-Spring-Nut-with-1LBD3)

I am out of town, i can get part number I used next week..

As far as alignment, I had one screw from the template line up with the spring nut, the other four i mounted the mid divers not centered but offset higher to give the magnet more room (although not necessary)

Keep me posted!

[53driver]

I'll verify - the installer I spoke with stated the mid bass driver was neodymium. I'm surprised to read that..

http://www.ebay.com/itm/252533837361 $289 I bought my set from custom sounds for 199, however, they don't have it listed on their website. I'm wondering if it was a one-off or the like.

I do see the same model as a coaxial hcx 130 sells for 239 on Amazon or other outlets for less. I am trying to verify if you can wire the tweeter separately, although even if not, this is likely tbd best speaker for the money if you don't go audison or dsp active two way.

Stay tuned, I am talking with head of sales to find options for lowering the price, such as purchasing drivers only, quantity purchase, etc.

Okay Rob, I'm all in.
Buy once, cry once. I have serious audio gear for my sound company, why should my bike be any less capable?

Give me the list of ingredients for this recipe and where I can get them from.
(I don't think I need the 8.9, as the 4.9 should suffice. 70W->130W isn't even a 3dB increase...)
I'll get them on order and we'll have a project to complete!
Cheers,
Steve

[F6Pilot]

Okay Rob, I'm all in. Buy once, cry once.

Oh, the insanity of it all.....

[CoCoKola]

Oh, the insanity of it all.....
This upgrade is what gave my sanity back..

[willtill]

I want to do this sound upgrade myself; for a winter project while the snow is on the ground and my bike is hibernating out back in the shed. Got a shed heater, beer, tunes and lights to work in... all ready to go... but I echo F6B Pilot's exclamation "Oh, the insanity of it all" ??? :shhh: Why can't we leave good enough alone? :icon_lol:

[pilotguy299]

Maybe my ears really are that bad, but I don't think that stock is as bad as everyone seems to say. Now granted I have the Auto-volume on, and play music almost exclusively from my iPod. But at 75mph I can hear my tunes at volume setting 11 with no problem.

[willtill]

These Hertz DSK130.3 speakers ...are not weatherproof? Is the diaphragm resistant to moisture?

[CoCoKola]

These Hertz DSK130.3 speakers ...are not weatherproof? Is the diaphragm resistant to moisture?

I need to contact Hertz again and get the official word. The pro audio company i worked with said they install these in boats all the time. They said just do not recommend blasting then with a high pressure washer, they work perfectly as is. Further, he said the marine grade speakers are rated for SALT WATER. The cones are not paper, a poly blend. The xovers are not waterproof, but I'm not using the. In the install. If you go passive and only run left and right power, you can mount the xovers in the front below the windshield and they are adaquately projected. I've also seen and read these mounted on motorcycles, so that was good enough for me.

In two weeks i have a meeting pending to talk to the us sales for both Hertz and Audison. Stay tuned for more info.

[F6Pilot]

... but I echo F6B Pilot's exclamation "Oh, the insanity of it all" ??? :shhh: Why can't we leave good enough alone? :icon_lol:

Oh, I'm not complaining, but my sentiments exactly. We just want bigger, better, more in every aspect. Though, I did enjoy my new Ultimate seat on the little 250 mile loop today. :icon_biggrin: And I'll enjoy the new tunes once I get these latest enhancements installed.

[Audiochris90]

Robert, where are you located? Id like to get the system for my bike.

[53driver]

I need to contact Hertz again and get the official word. The pro audio company i worked with said they install these in boats all the time. They said just do not recommend blasting then with a high pressure washer, they work perfectly as is. Further, he said the marine grade speakers are rated for SALT WATER. The cones are not paper, a poly blend. The xovers are not waterproof, but I'm not using the. In the install. If you go passive and only run left and right power, you can mount the xovers in the front below the windshield and they are adaquately projected. I've also seen and read these mounted on motorcycles, so that was good enough for me.

In two weeks i have a meeting pending to talk to the us sales for both Hertz and Audison. Stay tuned for more info.

Has it been two weeks?
Being retired, I lose track....
Cheers,
Steve

[CoCoKola]

Okay Rob, I'm all in.
Buy once, cry once. I have serious audio gear for my sound company, why should my bike be any less capable?

Give me the list of ingredients for this recipe and where I can get them from.
(I don't think I need the 8.9, as the 4.9 should suffice. 70W->130W isn't even a 3dB increase...)
I'll get them on order and we'll have a project to complete!
Cheers,
Steve

I'll be honest, if I could spend another $100 to get 2-3dB additional headroom, I would get it, unless you ride slow. The noise floor gets louder depending on your speed. I ran the same setup with just one channel per driver (4 total) and it worked, but there is a noticeable difference bridged. Of course, so many variables: helmet, windshield, environment, earplugs,etc.

It's as much about transients as it is intelligibility.. unless you heavily compress the signal, then you might not notice sections of a song are hard to make out. Also, the "speech intelligibility index" difference of a noise floor at 98dB and the output at 105dB, vs. 98dB at 102dB. Then increase speed 10MPH and, well, you get the point.

-Robert

[CoCoKola]

Has it been two weeks?
Being retired, I lose track....
Cheers,
Steve


We had to reschedule. I'm calling them tomorrow, as I haven't heard back.

[CoCoKola]

Robert, where are you located? Id like to get the system for my bike.


I like your username ;) I am in St.Louis MO. I have been out of work for a while, so I have availability to do installs.

-Robert

[CoCoKola]

Spoke with the power to be, and there won't be a possibility of a partnership at this time allowing discounts.

I did find an alternative product that may be a way to get similar results, is smaller in form factor, and several hundred dollars less. Match pp82DSP (http://www.crutchfield.com/S-AQs3MGHwZnl/p_975PP82DSP/Match-PP82DSP.html) They have a touch-screen and/or wired remote as well.

[53driver]

Spoke with the power to be, and there won't be a possibility of a partnership at this time allowing discounts.

I did find an alternative product that may be a way to get similar results, is smaller in form factor, and several hundred dollars less. Match pp82DSP (http://www.crutchfield.com/S-AQs3MGHwZnl/p_975PP82DSP/Match-PP82DSP.html) They have a touch-screen and/or wired remote as well.

Copy all. Any new word on the speakers?
And yes, I'm still all in!

[seventwenty]

Maybe my ears really are that bad, but I don't think that stock is as bad as everyone seems to say. Now granted I have the Auto-volume on, and play music almost exclusively from my iPod. But at 75mph I can hear my tunes at volume setting 11 with no problem.


:yes: I'm right with you. 11-12 while cruising and back it off to talk at stops. The bikes around me here it fine also.

A lot has to do with the windshield also. I hear it better running a 13" Cee Bailey than with a 14" Klock.

[stevenolts]

I live in St Louis and would like to know the final price?
Steve

[F6Pilot]

Ok, I've started the audio project. Mounted the Arc Audio amp in the left saddlebag and started on the speakers. While taking measurements, I decided the HT25 tweeter would fit in the stock tweeter position if I removed the grill.

[F6Pilot]

The first grill came off without a hitch.....the second....Houston, we have a problem. Yes, the actual tweeter separated from the back housing. I'm now curious about the two wires which appeared to be attached to nothing and simply tucked under the speaker. I know that can't be right but neither have any sign of solder.

[F6Pilot]

While I await resolution for the tweeter issue, I decided to go ahead and work on the mids. I cut some spacers from 1/2" HDPE and utilized the stock speaker screws to mount the spacers to the dash.

24947 24948 24949 24950

Tomorrow I will start running a pair of 14/4 wires from the speakers back to the amp.

[CoCoKola]

While I await resolution for the tweeter issue, I decided to go ahead and work on the mids. I cut some spacers from 1/2" HDPE and utilized the stock speaker screws to mount the spacers to the dash.


Tomorrow I will start running a pair of 14/4 wires from the speakers back to the amp.

It's been a really tough year, and this month has been the straw breaking the camel's back. I've not had much time to document/follow along, but there is light at the end of the tunnel. I would take a meter and touch anything/everything that MIGHT be a connection point and measure resistance. I'm betting you can find where those leads were connected...

I'm pleased to see you are making progress, and I look forward to hearing your opinion. Frankly, the Audison really makes the difference between good and great. It seems if you don't mind warranty possibly being a challenge, you can buy the 8.9 Audison for 1/2 what I paid for it.

Earlier, I mentioned the Audison has a de-EQ that allows it to compensate for any "EQ"ing that the head unit does to the output. It's pretty simple, you play an included CD through your head unit, and it measures each channel against an expected output level for each frequency. It builds a curve that is inserted at the beginning of the processing chain. You set bass/treble to 0, turn off the bass boost, volume compensation etc for the test. I used the AUX input connected to a CD player.

Here is what it showed. Notice everything below 100Hz is dumped, the "bass boost" where the stock can push some low end between 100Hz and 500Hz, the strange boost about 1k, and the highs that seem to roll off. This should be as close to a straight line between the left and right sides of the measurement.

24966

More to come..

[F6Pilot]

With further inspection of the tweeters under a magnifying glass, I simply could not identify a connection point. I assume the connections ran up through a pair of those holes but I can't confirm without completing dismantling the casing. I ended up locating some more HT25 components which arrived today.

Now I must decide if I try to pull the grill off of another tweeter, potentially creating the same disastrous/expensive result, or simply cut holes in the factory mesh grills and surface mount.

I additionally pulled the front end apart and got the wiring routed from the crossovers to the speaker pods. I mounted the crossovers to another slab of HDPE and plan to secure them under the right cubby cover.

249692497024972

[CoCoKola]

With further inspection of the tweeters under a magnifying glass, I simply could not identify a connection point. I assume the connections ran up through a pair of those holes but I can't confirm without completing dismantling the casing. I ended up locating some more HT25 components which arrived today.

Now I must decide if I try to pull the grill off of another tweeter, potentially creating the same disastrous/expensive result, or simply cut holes in the factory mesh grills and surface mount.

I additionally pulled the front end apart and got the wiring routed from the crossovers to the speaker pods. I mounted the crossovers to another slab of HDPE and plan to secure them under the right cubby cover.



That was the approach I took. It seemed cheaper to source a replacement cover than mess with the tweeters. I was concerned about affecting the output as well. In any case, it sounds like you are getting close to getting this wrapped up!

One item I also added was the boom mat (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0039Z3SRA/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1)to help seal the compartment. I ordered both the 5.25 and 6.5 - the 6.5 had enough room for the magnet and an A/B comparison did seem improved / less resonance / tighter bass.

Cheers!

[F6Pilot]

Great tip, I will get some boom mats ordered as well. Tonight I pulled the back end apart and got wires routed from the crossover cubby back to the left saddlebag where the amp resides.


2497324974

Now I also get to do a lot of reading to determine how I connect the amp to the speakers and then how/where I pull signal from the factory head unit. Fun....

[willtill]

Jeff, can you post larger pictures? Am interested in the pictorial details of your install... but the thumbnails are not adequate for viewing such.

[F6Pilot]

Will, I couldn't edit the original posts so let me know if these are any better. The site keeps downsizing the files to around 20k.

2497624975

[willtill]

That's a little better. FYI - You can post larger sizes (embed them) using Tinypic.com.... that's what I use.

[F6Pilot]

I just pushed everything up to a Photobucket account. Let me figure out how to embed these things properly and I will update everything later tonight.

[CoCoKola]

Great tip, I will get some boom mats ordered as well. Tonight I pulled the back end apart and got wires routed from the crossover cubby back to the left saddlebag where the amp resides.


2497324974

Now I also get to do a lot of reading to determine how I connect the amp to the speakers and then how/where I pull signal from the factory head unit. Fun....

I used posilock (https://www.amazon.com/Posi-Lock-Connectors-14-16-gauge-601/dp/B00HTA8O9S/ref=pd_sim_263_3?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=Z7Z6WKHS70D2XBVDWD69)s or positaps (https://www.amazon.com/Posi-tap-Connector-20-22-Gauge-Wire/dp/B00389UT3I) (depending on your preference.) Make sure you get the 20-22 gauge for the audio in -> your RCA cable (twisted type only!) used with shrink-wrap for each cable PLUS a 1.5-2" shrink-wrap to bundle the entire set of cables. Seems the best way to ensure a water-proof and vibration-proof connection.


The service manual has the wiring diagram in the back, you just tap off the head unit where it connects to the factory amp. I just cut each cable (Brown is battery positive switched I believe, so be careful of the two 20 amp circuits!) and used the posilocks for the 8 connections and I pulled the stock amplifier to reduce the pull on the battery - reduce weight. You could use just the front, but I wanted the rear to use as input to the subwoofer, and you can use the fader to balance fronts from the rear. With the Audison, it has its own controller, so it is maybe less important.

Also, note that I used the switched power from these Brown wires for the ACC on for my Audison. I would not do it this way again and instead use the acc taps from the battery accessory terminal.

EDITED: added additional info and corrected spelling errors.

[F6Pilot]

Let's give this a try...


http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b450/jhollis211F6Pilot/Speaker%20Upgrade/File%20Dec%2021%209%2044%2017%20AM_zpsglhdlb9r.jpe g

[F6Pilot]

http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b450/jhollis211F6Pilot/Speaker%20Upgrade/File%20Dec%2021%209%2048%2012%20AM_zpsr14jus9y.jpe g

[F6Pilot]

http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b450/jhollis211F6Pilot/Speaker%20Upgrade/File%20Dec%2021%209%2041%2002%20AM_zpskh8mdjta.jpe g

[F6Pilot]

Well, I guess those are big enough. Will, let me know which additional images you would like to see and I will get them loaded for you.

[willtill]

Well, I guess those are big enough. Will, let me know which additional images you would like to see and I will get them loaded for you.

Jeff, that is perfect! Thanks a lot. :icon_cool: I had copied your thumbnails previously and zoomed in on them... but the resolution was too grainy

If you can upload the disassembled fairing as well...

I would need to put the crossovers somewhere else... since I have the cruise control module installed in the right fairing pocket.

I know others on the site are appreciating the larger images too! It gives more detail :yes:

[F6Pilot]

No problem Will, I just had to learn the process on Photobucket. The forum software bumps the images down to 20k.

The crossovers are quite large which makes placement difficult. They will fit in the fairing behind the gauges but it will be tight and somewhat difficult to ensure they are secured appropriately. I also was concerned with how open the fairing was and the potential for grime and debris.

http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b450/jhollis211F6Pilot/Speaker%20Upgrade/File%20Dec%2021%209%2043%2042%20AM_zpsz2ojasuf.jpe ghttp://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b450/jhollis211F6Pilot/Speaker%20Upgrade/File%20Dec%2021%209%2043%2059%20AM_zps16lmyztf.jpe g

[53driver]

Jeff - thanks! I'm doing this mod soon. Shopping for the HSK 130s right now.
Cheers,
Steve

[F6Pilot]

Here is my start on the wiring. I will readily admit to being a novice, tilting more to the mechanical side than the electrical. You know, if you cant fix it with a bigger hammer...you've got an electrical problem.

I have posilocks on the way to help with the interconnects, but will really need some help understanding the "from" stock wiring and "to" where on the amp. Based on Robert's earlier comments, I assume I'm tapping two inputs going into the factory amp and connecting those to the RCA jacks. I further assume there is also a trigger wire for the "turn on" lug on the Arc amp. I have the FSM and will start trying to identify the appropriate wires this weekend.

http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b450/jhollis211F6Pilot/Speaker%20Upgrade/Visio-Speakers_zpsm67h48uf.jpg

[CoCoKola]

I believe I mentioned this before, but I ended up installing the X-overs in an unused space in front. It requires you to remove the windshield and the front fairing. In between the headlights is a space that the x-overs fit vertically - one on each side. This is an old photo when I was still testing the Polks, but the x-over fits nicely here.




(https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipMgqOCbUMlb-sy_HpwgoYtGT4ILamZzaCauL9Sc)24987

[CoCoKola]

Here is a photo during a test fitting, prior to placement of the tweeters, as well as a photo showing the mats installed. I will take the bike apart to get photos of the final install. I remember now, I was pushing to get everything installed prior to the rally & bike week. 249894602

[CoCoKola]

Here is my start on the wiring. I will readily admit to being a novice, tilting more to the mechanical side than the electrical. You know, if you cant fix it with a bigger hammer...you've got an electrical problem.

I have posilocks on the way to help with the interconnects, but will really need some help understanding the "from" stock wiring and "to" where on the amp. Based on Robert's earlier comments, I assume I'm tapping two inputs going into the factory amp and connecting those to the RCA jacks. I further assume there is also a trigger wire for the "turn on" lug on the Arc amp. I have the FSM and will start trying to identify the appropriate wires this weekend.



F6Pilot: I am the polar <cough> opposite. Completing this audio upgrade was my trial by fire as a mechanic. Electrons are my friends. The fabrication was truly an adventure in "oh $hit, now what" but thanks to several here, I made it to the finish line.

The short <cough> answer is the accessory power pull from the accessory power tab to the left of the battery (I will double check that this is OFF during starter press.) I used the accessory power the stock amp used, but twice during my initial setup, when I had the bike in ACC mode for a while during start depress the sub amp didn't mute and it passed a not so nice signal. I believe this can be fixed by a config change on the 8.9 amp configuration, your post reminded me to verify the cause and resolve it.

Here is the wiring diagram for the input Molex for the Audison 8.9 and includes the F6B wiring colors and purpose. This chart should work with the ARC or other amps to know what to map to your amp's input side.



Audison Molex

Purpose

F6B Wire



16 White

Front Left +

Yellow/Black



8 White/Blk

Front Left –

Green/Black



15 Gray

Front Right +

Red/Black



7 Gray/Blk

Front Right –

Black/White*



14 Green

Rear Left +

Pink



6 Green/Blk

Rear left –

Light Green



13 Violet

Rear Right +

Blue/Black



5 violet/Blk

Rear Right –

White/Back*






For those who have a shop manual, and for your reference, codes used are the following for the F6B:
Bl – Black
BR – Brown
Bu – Blue
G – Green
Gr- Gray
Lb – Light Blue
Lg – Light Green
O – Orange
P – Pink
Pu – Purple
R – Red
W – White
Y – Yellow

24991 24992


That should get you going. Hope this info helps, it was a $itch to put together

[F6Pilot]

Robert, thank you for the detailed information. It will speed up my discovery process immensely. There is one piece I am thoroughly confused on and that is the conversion from the pre-amp wires to RCA connectors. I am only running front components so per the manual there are essentially only four wires coming from the head unit into the amp. They feed both the tweeters and the mids and I should tap in to these lines prior to the factory amp. I'm assuming an RCA is essentially a ring and tip configuration for + and - so do you use a high/low convertor to convert from basic wires to the RCA? Additionally, what determines whether the tip or ring is + or -?

[CoCoKola]

I'm glad to hear it will help you!

You will need to splice the first four lines in the chart above. The tip of the rca is the positive and the shield is the negative. Depending on the amp you buy, you will need to purchase twisted RCA cable (such as the mvp4 or and audison amp) or coaxial rca cable. It matters (https://youtu.be/QOagVDZLQnA) so you don't end up with engine noise or ground loop issues. The cost is about the same. Check your manual to see which kind is needed, or check with your supplier.




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As far as a converter, as long as you tap between the head head unit and the amp, you are getting a low level rca level. It's actually below the standard voltage level for rca, but most amps have enough sensitivity adjustment to make up for the difference. You may need to get a line driver to add additional gain, or if you run into a problem like Jimmy where there is distortion due to the differences.

I can recommend a couple products that can help. The best option is a dsp unit that costs bucks, but would give you most of what you are missing not having the Audison total eq compensation and time alignment. For another day..

Cheers!

[F6Pilot]

I finished a little more electrical work today. I got the crossovers wired up and secured with zip ties in the right cubby. In the future I would like to create a more permanent mount/platform for this part of the project. I also soldered in a weatherproof connector for the gear indicator and remounted the gauge cluster. Im really considering taking another tweeter apart so it can be mounted in the stock position. Now that I know what to look for, I believe I can get the grill removed without further incident. If I do experience another malfunction I can always put the first tweeter back together and surface mount the pair.

http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b450/jhollis211F6Pilot/Speaker%20Upgrade/Unknown-2_zpszxfzbvr2.jpeg
http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b450/jhollis211F6Pilot/Speaker%20Upgrade/Unknown-3_zpsn03nd1eo.jpeg
http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b450/jhollis211F6Pilot/Speaker%20Upgrade/Unknown_zpstndoc9uy.jpeg

[willtill]

I finished a little more electrical work today. I got the crossovers wired up and secured with zip ties in the right cubby. In the future I would like to create a more permanent mount/platform for this part of the project. I also soldered in a weatherproof connector for the gear indicator and remounted the gauge cluster.
http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b450/jhollis211F6Pilot/Speaker%20Upgrade/Unknown_zpstndoc9uy.jpeg
Oh! Oh! Oh! You mean that you ere able to fit the GI Pro Indicator behind the plastic on the gauge cluster? It actually has enough room to be mounted there?

I do have cruise control though.. the indicator lights for it would be obscured in that position you had put yours. Wondering if there would be enough to move it to the left; between the bezels of the Speedometer and Tachometer gauges?

[F6Pilot]

Yes, there is room in the cluster all of the way across. I simply placed mine to the left of the high beam indicator. The clear cover comes off with screws and you simply dremel some notches to route the wire out of the cluster. Be aware that the outer sheathing on the indicator cable is very soft and susceptible to being cut by any sharp edge.

[CoCoKola]

I'm looking forward to hearing your impressions of the speakers, and a recap of what you had installed previously for comparison. What a Christmas gift for yourself!

[F6Pilot]

Yeah, I'm anxious to get it done but was "reminded" today that I have all winter...

My progression as shown below has been stock, J&M, JBL, and now Hertz.

[F6Pilot]

I also wound up with a pair of Hertz HV165 that I could not make fit. Unless I come up with another use for them, they will likely be sold. I was able to successfully dismantle a second tweeter and get it into the stock position.

25010

[CoCoKola]

What hang up did you encounter? By mounting the speakers at far to the top as possible, with the mats and a 1/2" riser, mounted upside down (connections facing up) it fit. Virgin tight. I had to also get spring nuts and longer bolts cut to length.

[F6Pilot]

The 5.25" are going to be just fine. These are the big 6.5" and they are massive. The baskets are so deep they won't even fit in the stock opening.

[F6Pilot]

Well, I just came in from chasing wires all evening and I think I have it figured out. Man that FSM can be confusing at times. Anyway, after pulling the back end apart and chasing connectors, I located the 20P Gray connector running down to the amp (this is not to be confused with the 20P Gray connector on the back of the audio unit since the wire colors don't match :banghead:). Anyway, now that the preamp signal wires have been located, I will try to identify the best place to tap/splice into said wires and get the signal routed down to the new amp. Im going to study the schematics a little more but I may just disconnect the whole factory amp to eliminate unnecessary drain on the electrical system. I will first need to confirm nothing necessary routes through for any other purpose.

http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b450/jhollis211F6Pilot/Speaker%20Upgrade/Unknown-1_zpsmtsmygic.jpeg
http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b450/jhollis211F6Pilot/Speaker%20Upgrade/Unknown_zpsvu2dojev.jpeg

[Jimmytee]

Well, I just came in from chasing wires all evening and I think I have it figured out. Man that FSM can be confusing at times. Anyway, after pulling the back end apart and chasing connectors, I located the 20P Gray connector running down to the amp (this is not to be confused with the 20P Gray connector on the back of the audio unit since the wire colors don't match :banghead:). Anyway, now that the preamp signal wires have been located, I will try to identify the best place to tap/splice into said wires and get the signal routed down to the new amp. Im going to study the schematics a little more but I may just disconnect the whole factory amp to eliminate unnecessary drain on the electrical system. I will first need to confirm nothing necessary routes through for any other purpose.

http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b450/jhollis211F6Pilot/Speaker%20Upgrade/Unknown-1_zpsmtsmygic.jpeg
http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b450/jhollis211F6Pilot/Speaker%20Upgrade/Unknown_zpsvu2dojev.jpeg

When I did mine, I removed the factory amp, cut the wiring harness from the amp at about the half way point. Then I just chose the wires I needed and made my splices, Solder and heat shrink. If I for some reason wanted to restore the factory amp, I would simply splice the wires back to the harness. Since then, I removed all the factory audio and went all after market though.

[F6Pilot]

At present I don't anticipate any need to remove it completely since the space isn't sealed and really not big enough to utilize. I can see how that works for you having removed all stock components. I have traced the stock amplifier power and ground back to the Power Amp relay under the seat. I believe I will simply remove the relay effectively taking he stock amp out of the loop completely and just splice the four lines I need for peaked inputs.

[Jimmytee]

At present I don't anticipate any need to remove it completely since the space isn't sealed and really not big enough to utilize. I can see how that works for you having removed all stock components. I have traced the stock amplifier power and ground back to the Power Amp relay under the seat. I believe I will simply remove the relay effectively taking he stock amp out of the loop completely and just splice the four lines I need for peaked inputs.

I just felt it was easier and in the end cleaner to remove the amp. I originally utilized the power from the relay for the amp as the turn on source/trigger for my aftermarket amp. After replacing the front end equipment also, I no longer use that either since the new front end had it's own switched power to trigger amps.

[F6Pilot]

So I can use the brown wire coming off of the factory amp relay to trigger my Arc Audio amp? I assume in that scenario the amp would only come on when the radio is turned on? I had considered running it off of the acc connection at the fuse panel but that would have it on constantly whether the radio was on or not.

[Papa Tater]

Im going to be doing something similar on upgrading system soon. I will be eliminating the factory amp out of the loop. I tapping into the pre amp signals also. I originally just wanted to just unplug that big square connector at the factory amp and find a connector to just plug in and make my own harness to my amp-etc. Without having to splice into the harness, after a lot exhaustion cannot find a plug at all- the only way that you can get it from Honda is with an amp. I don't want to cut my pigtail coming of my factory amp, I case I ever want to go back to stock. If you or even others on here are just going to throw away or sell very cheap, I could use a donor amp for the pigtail with connector. I think I will be going the posi taps at the wiring from just out of the preamp (just for the front and rear channels) and just unplug the factory amp and leave it in place.

[Jimmytee]

Im going to be doing something similar on upgrading system soon. I will be eliminating the factory amp out of the loop. I tapping into the pre amp signals also. I originally just wanted to just unplug that big square connector at the factory amp and find a connector to just plug in and make my own harness to my amp-etc. Without having to splice into the harness, after a lot exhaustion cannot find a plug at all- the only way that you can get it from Honda is with an amp. I don't want to cut my pigtail coming of my factory amp, I case I ever want to go back to stock. If you or even others on here are just going to throw away or sell very cheap, I could use a donor amp for the pigtail with connector. I think I will be going the posi taps at the wiring from just out of the preamp (just for the front and rear channels) and just unplug the factory amp and leave it in place.

If you cut the pigtail about half way , you would have plenty left to resplice in case you decided to reverse. No, I researched the plugs and only source was to buy in bulk. When I say bulk , I mean like spending thousands.

[Jimmytee]

So I can use the brown wire coming off of the factory amp relay to trigger my Arc Audio amp? I assume in that scenario the amp would only come on when the radio is turned on? I had considered running it off of the acc connection at the fuse panel but that would have it on constantly whether the radio was on or not.

Yes. That's what I originally did until I decided to change the head unit too. I believe it was brown. Been awhile. :icon_wink:

[CoCoKola]

Yes. That's what I originally did until I decided to change the head unit too. I believe it was brown. Been awhile. :icon_wink:

Brown is the relay power and works well for the switched power. There are two brown wires actually, they both go to the amp relay rated for 20A. I did as JimmyT did, cut the cable as it can be resoldered or use the posilocks.

[F6Pilot]

That will be my path as well. I've got everything opened up and ready to go. The baffles and posi connectors will be here tomorrow which will allow me to button up the front end. I took a break from audio today and installed switchback bulbs in the rear turn signals per VP8s post. Always another project....

[F6Pilot]

I'm back into it tonight. The baffles arrived allowing me to proceed with installing the 5.25" in the adapters and get that portion buttoned up. Next on the agenda is to begin test fitting the dash and grills to determine what if any trimming might be necessary.

More to come...

2505125052

[F6Pilot]

Finished mounting both of the mids and trimming the baffles last night. Tonight was filled with test fitting the grills and marking a profile on the frames to make room for the raised speakers.

2505925060

Need to pick up a replacement Dremel tomorrow and commence cutting.....

[CoCoKola]

I struggled with this step, I cut more of the lower section than was needed, although you certainly need enough room for the Cones to extend.

Have you fired up the system to ensure it works?

[F6Pilot]

Haven't fired it up yet, just marching forward with completing the front piece. Just received the fuse holder today that needs to be mounted and the power wires routed.

25061

Picked up some RCA terminals at Radio Crap today and yes, they are crap. So, need to source some better quality pieces and get the input cables made. Also need to tap and route the trigger wires to the amp. So, after all of that I will need to determine proper "start up" settings for the amp and proceed.

[F6Pilot]

I got out and made the cuts tonight, trimming approximately 1/4" at the deepest points and tapering from there. A Dremel with a plastic cutting disc really does the trick if you keep the RPMs low. Tomorrow I will install the tweeters and button up the front end.

[F6Pilot]

I finally had an opportunity to finish up the amp end of the wiring. Everything is now secured and buttoned up on this end. The final steps will be connecting the pre-amp outs to the RCA cables, connecting the trigger wire, and determining what the amp settings need to be for initial startup. More to come...

25093

[53driver]

Hertz HSK 130s arrived today.....
Let the games begin!
Oh wait, I need an amp....

[CoCoKola]

Thanks Pilot for the photos and discoveries along the way. It's been fun watching the progress!


-Robert

[F6Pilot]

Thanks Robert, it has been a fun and educational process. As stated, the discovery and mechanical part was the easy part and now I get to figure out that amp. The initial settings found in various forums gave me a safe initial startup but it quite frankly sounds like crap. Don't have an oscilloscope so I'm going to keep reading......

[Papa Tater]

Any Updates this week?

[CoCoKola]

Thanks Robert, it has been a fun and educational process. As stated, the discovery and mechanical part was the easy part and now I get to figure out that amp. The initial settings found in various forums gave me a safe initial startup but it quite frankly sounds like crap. Don't have an oscilloscope so I'm going to keep reading......

"Sounds like crap." give me a call to discuss, way to vague to be able to help.

-Robert

[F6Pilot]

Well, I got everything buttoned back up and the bike put back together so I could take a ride today. As for sounding like crap, the lows sounded very muffled. I realize these little 5.25" speakers won't push a lot but they just sounded muted and tinny. I read every bike audio post I could find (there's a lot of good info in the HD Forums :icon_lol:) and found where many had removed foam baffles, polyfill, etc. I had installed Boom Mats and they really created a snug fit so I decided to pull it back apart and remove them to see if there was any difference. The difference was immediately recognizable with a much fuller and deeper sound. Im not saying it sounded like I had just installed a sub, but the bass was there and the sound was much more clear. At this point I was happy they finally sounded better than the JBL coaxials I had just removed.

While doing research this past week, I located a reputable audio shop that is actually the local dealer for Hertz, Audison, and Arc Audio. While out riding today I visited and spoke with the owner about amp settings. He advised they could assist in dialing it in and use an oscilloscope to ensure they get the most out of the components. I have elected to take the bike to them Monday morning and let them get this project across the line. I can then make note of their settings for future reference.

Robert, I sincerely appreciate your guidance throughout this process as well as your continued willingness to assist. To be honest, I have partial hearing loss in one ear and a severe case of tinnitus so I probably can't even tell what good would even sound like. Too many years banging on drums and listening to loud music.

[Jimmytee]

Well, I got everything buttoned back up and the bike put back together so I could take a ride today. As for sounding like crap, the lows sounded very muffled. I realize these little 5.25" speakers won't push a lot but they just sounded muted and tinny. I read every bike audio post I could find (there's a lot of good info in the HD Forums :icon_lol:) and found where many had removed foam baffles, polyfill, etc. I had installed Boom Mats and they really created a snug fit so I decided to pull it back apart and remove them to see if there was any difference. The difference was immediately recognizable with a much fuller and deeper sound. Im not saying it sounded like I had just installed a sub, but the bass was there and the sound was much more clear. At this point I was happy they finally sounded better than the JBL coaxials I had just removed.

While doing research this past week, I located a reputable audio shop that is actually the local dealer for Hertz, Audison, and Arc Audio. While out riding today I visited and spoke with the owner about amp settings. He advised they could assist in dialing it in and use an oscilloscope to ensure they get the most out of the components. I have elected to take the bike to them Monday morning and let them get this project across the line. I can then make note of their settings for future reference.

Robert, I sincerely appreciate your guidance throughout this process as well as your continued willingness to assist. To be honest, I have partial hearing loss in one ear and a severe case of tinnitus so I probably can't even tell what good would even sound like. Too many years banging on drums and listening to loud music.

I wonder when I read about some filling and even lining or sealing up the enclosures that the speakers fit it. If anyone notices, realizing that the enclosures were designed for the OEM speakers, that the enclosures are ported. I don't know how much actual science is in to the design of these enclosures. Conventional enclosure design wisdom would tell you that the ABS plastic is not a very good material for enclosures and that any efforts to decrease resonance in this material could not be bad. However, I have also read about some sealing off these enclosures, and to me at least, it would seem to really limit the sound from any speakers. A truly sealed enclosure would surely need to be larger. JMTCW

[F6Pilot]

The speakers were very very snug inside the liner and my understanding, from a complete non-audiophile noob here, is that they just needed more room to breathe. In retrospect, it is a ported enclosure even if small and to me it made sense to allow the speaker to use all of the available space. Maybe it just needed a little more room to produce some lower end resonance and thats what Im hearing. LOL

Thank you Jimmy

[CoCoKola]

There are dozen things that could affect the quality. Polarity, rca cable type, etc. I can't detail everything here, it's too involved which is why I offered to review with you. The setup you used one of the top installers in the nation did a couple years ago.

most likely and like I said before, you probably need a line driver (disused on this thread. ) The line level output is below normal specs. Along these lines:

https://www.google.com/search?q=line+driver+rca&oq=line+driver+rca

This is why I have been so adamant about needing a dsp or an amp that can.

[F6Pilot]

Robert, I completely agree, way too many variables including my old ears. I know the chosen components are top shelf, at least for my needs, and will serve me well once everything gets checked and dialed in. Looking forward to Monday....

[F6Pilot]

I delivered my bike to the audio technician today and picked it up a few hours later. He advised he had everything dialed in and had to install an RCA filter to remove some ignition noise. We went outside, put the key in and WOW! The sound has truly come to life and absolutely rocks. While the bass does not "boom", I never imagined being able to get sounds in the lower register out of 5.25" speakers. I could actually feel notes hitting my chest when we cranked it up. This guy did a remarkable job getting the system dialed in and squeezing everything he could out of these components. I do not believe I could have achieved the same results due to my lack of knowledge in this area. The only remaining item is to relocate the filter to a more suitable position as I do not like the location they chose.

Now, I remain thankful for the direction and recommendations of both Robert and Jimmy. There is a multitude of information and components readily available for the HD crowd including both custom and plug and play wiring and various peripherals. That makes the installation experience similar to a Crutchfield order complete with pictures. However, these two guys are trailblazers and are to be commended for their research and efforts. Thank you gentlemen.

I am extremely pleased with the final result and recommend the same for anyone looking to enhance their audio experience.

[53driver]

I am SO glad to hear this!
First, I'm happy for you that you've got what you wanted.
Second, I'm taking the first steps in this path......$$$

Cheers,
Steve

[CoCoKola]

You are right about the bass, but you would be surprised they can put out serious bass if you compensate for the 10db cut at 100hz off the head unit. A dsp or eq prior to the amp would help. I'm not saying you will get serious bass, but I was surprised what hertz was able to produce compared to any other speaker I tried. I tried 6 different speakers, and these were in a class of their own.

Hopefully you will hear the difference at highway speeds, it changed riding forever for me.

Robert

[Jimmytee]

You are right about the bass, but you would be surprised they can put out serious bass if you compensate for the 10db cut at 100hz off the head unit. A dsp or eq prior to the amp would help. I'm not saying you will get serious bass, but I was surprised what hertz was able to produce compared to any other speaker I tried. I tried 6 different speakers, and these were in a class of their own.

Hopefully you will hear the difference at highway speeds, it changed riding forever for me.

Robert

I know we talked about this before, but I don't remember and I'm not exactly sure I ever understood precisely :shrug: which Hertz speakers you have installed. Could you refresh my memory?:icon_wink:

[53driver]

I know we talked about this before, but I don't remember and I'm not exactly sure I ever understood precisely :shrug: which Hertz speakers you have installed. Could you refresh my memory?:icon_wink:

I think Robert, F6Pilot & I all have the HSK 130s.
Mine are still in a box....

[F6Pilot]

Yes, I installed the HSK 130 set.

http://www.hertzaudiovideo.com/car-audio-speakers-system-hienergy-hsk130/

[CoCoKola]

I think Robert, F6Pilot & I all have the HSK 130s.
Mine are still in a box....

10-4 rubber ducky. (http://www.hertzaudiovideo.com/car-audio-speakers-system-hienergy-hsk130/)

25242

[Jimmytee]

10-4 rubber ducky. (http://www.hertzaudiovideo.com/car-audio-speakers-system-hienergy-hsk130/)

25242

What is the RMS wattage you are running to them?

[F6Pilot]

I chose the following amp for my installation. I am using the OEM stereo and grabbing the preamp speaker outs.

http://www.arcaudio.com/p/ks-125-2-bx-mini/amplifiers_ks-mini?pp=24

[Jimmytee]

I chose the following amp for my installation. I am using the OEM stereo and grabbing the preamp speaker outs.

http://www.arcaudio.com/p/ks-125-2-bx-mini/amplifiers_ks-mini?pp=24

I have been pretty happy with the output of the MVX amp. It pumps out a healthy amount of juice and has been doing so for over 2 years now. It's been powering the Polks which are 2.7 nominal impedance and the JL Audio Sub. Just was trying to remember what Robert was pushing the Hertz with. Contemplating making a change to the Hertz , but they are 4 ohm. Believe I should be just fine though. Contemplated running the NVX bridged to the Hertz and a different amp for the sub, but that would probably not be needed.

For some reason I was thinking that someone had been able to fit the 6.5 Hertz speakers in. I have the Polk 6.5" component speakers but the magnets on the woofers have Neodymium magnets so there is more room for them.

[53driver]

I have been pretty happy with the output of the MVX amp. It pumps out a healthy amount of juice and has been doing so for over 2 years now. It's been powering the Polks which are 2.7 nominal impedance and the JL Audio Sub. Just was trying to remember what Robert was pushing the Hertz with. Contemplating making a change to the Hertz , but they are 4 ohm. Believe I should be just fine though. Contemplated running the NVX bridged to the Hertz and a different amp for the sub, but that would probably not be needed.

For some reason I was thinking that someone had been able to fit the 6.5 Hertz speakers in. I have the Polk 6.5" component speakers but the magnets on the woofers have Neodymium magnets so there is more room for them.

Robert is using the Audison Prima AP8.9
http://www.audison.eu/index.php?page=product&id=50

[F6Pilot]

I don't think you can get the Hertz 6.5 in the stock location. The limiting factors are the baskets and magnets. I have a pair that I was going to attempt installing and they are huge.

[Jimmytee]

Robert is using the Audison Prima AP8.9
http://www.audison.eu/index.php?page=product&id=50

Thanks, I know which amp he is using , but that amp can be used in different configurations. I was trying to remember what configuration. I am pretty sure he was running the woofers and tweeters separately. I am toying with changing speakers to the Hertz. The Audison does look impressive. Don't think I'm there yet. If I was using the stock head unit, it might be different. :icon_wink:

[Jimmytee]

I don't think you can get the Hertz 6.5 in the stock location. The limiting factors are the baskets and magnets. I have a pair that I was going to attempt installing and they are huge.

So which ones do you have? The 163 ?

[53driver]

Thanks, I know which amp he is using , but that amp can be used in different configurations. I was trying to remember what configuration. I am pretty sure he was running the woofers and tweeters separately. I am toying with changing speakers to the Hertz. The Audison does look impressive. Don't think I'm there yet. If I was using the stock head unit, it might be different. :icon_wink:

Oh, you didn't ask for how he had it configured - you just asked which amp he was using. :icon_razz:

He has this amp in bridge, each driver driven independently.
So, assuming 4 Ohm nominal load, 130W per driver.

Cheers,
Steve

[Jimmytee]

Oh, you didn't ask for how he had it configured - you just asked which amp he was using. :icon_razz:

He has this amp in bridge, each driver driven independently.
So, assuming 4 Ohm nominal load, 130W per driver.

Cheers,
Steve
:nono: No I asked how much RMS wattage he was running to the speakers...:icon_biggrin:

[53driver]

I have been pretty happy with the output of the MVX amp. It pumps out a healthy amount of juice and has been doing so for over 2 years now. It's been powering the Polks which are 2.7 nominal impedance and the JL Audio Sub. Just was trying to remember what Robert was pushing the Hertz with. Contemplating making a change to the Hertz , but they are 4 ohm. Believe I should be just fine though. Contemplated running the NVX bridged to the Hertz and a different amp for the sub, but that would probably not be needed.

For some reason I was thinking that someone had been able to fit the 6.5 Hertz speakers in. I have the Polk 6.5" component speakers but the magnets on the woofers have Neodymium magnets so there is more room for them.


Thanks, I know which amp he is using , but that amp can be used in different configurations. I was trying to remember what configuration. I am pretty sure he was running the woofers and tweeters separately. I am toying with changing speakers to the Hertz. The Audison does look impressive. Don't think I'm there yet. If I was using the stock head unit, it might be different. :icon_wink:


:nono: No I asked how much RMS wattage he was running to the speakers...:icon_biggrin:

Lol. What, What, and How Much.
You're killing me!
You win!

Cheers,
Steve

I need to go check on my headlamp moisture levels...

[F6Pilot]

So which ones do you have? The 163 ?

I wound up with two sets, the HSK130 and the HSK165. I used the HSK130 with the 5.25". I used the tweeters from the HSK165 due to "installer error" and still have the crossovers and 6.5" speakers on the shelf.

[CoCoKola]

Tried posting this three times. Here is the short version: get an amp with a DSP to really get the most out of these speakers. I was running bi-amp 130W RMS @12v to each speaker (left woofer, left tweeter, right woofer, right tweeter.) According to the specs, if you bypass the limiter, you can technically get 170W RMS @ 14.4v per channel but at 10x the THD.

output 1+ & 2- went to the left tweeter, output 3+ and 4- to left woofer. output 5+& 6- to right tweeter, output 7+ and 8- to right woofer.

If you get an amp with DSP, you can skip installing the two crossovers and you get the benefit of each speaker get's its own power. When the kick drum/bass hits, your tweeters can still use full power for the cymbals & that female voice's sexy breathy sounds. If you use a standard two channel amp, it's like you are taking a shower and someone flushes the toilet. The water pressure drops, and you can't wash the soap out of your hair, and the temperature difference is like the crispness of the highs being washed out. That is not 100% accurate but gets the point across. It's a couple hundred more, but it's so worth it. Ask any professional sound installer/ sound engineer. Ask them if they want to run two-way passive or two-way active. Any sound engineers in here who can back me? preferably one who heard my system (that wasn't even dialed in completely.)

25248252492525025251

Some options. Note: I have no experience or opinion of anything but the Audison. Audison is at the same level as these Hertz speakers - competition level. The others, your mileage may vary. Spend the extra couple hundred over the Arc and gain SO much more control, accuracy, etc. For example, I have a controller with two settings, one for when my bike is parked (maximum performance) and one for when I am riding (not as accurate, less bass but more power for volume.)
Audison 8.9 (https://www.amazon.com/Audison-8-9-Channel-Watt-1Xpreout/dp/B00HZK6WMI)
Audison 4.9 (half the power, same DSP) (http://www.ebay.com/itm/AUDISON-PRIMA-AP4-9-bit-AMPLIFICATORE-PER-AUTO-4-CANALI-AP-4-9-bit-/111411045457)
Match PP82DSP (https://www.crutchfield.com/p_975PP82DSP/Match-PP82DSP.html?tp=61674&awkw=75719473705&awat=pla&awnw=g&awcr=48384124825&awdv=c&awug=9022811)
AudioControl DM-810 (http://www.audiocontrol.com/audiocontrol-announces-new-dsp-matrix-processors-full-range-amplifier-product-launches-at-ces-2016/) (DSP only, no amp Audison makes an alternative as well. This could be added to a 4-channel power amp to give similar capability)

[Jimmytee]

Tried posting this three times. Here is the short version: get an amp with a DSP to really get the most out of these speakers. I was running bi-amp 130W RMS @12v to each speaker (left woofer, left tweeter, right woofer, right tweeter.) According to the specs, if you bypass the limiter, you can technically get 170W RMS @ 14.4v per channel but at 10x the THD.

output 1+ & 2- went to the left tweeter, output 3+ and 4- to left woofer. output 5+& 6- to right tweeter, output 7+ and 8- to right woofer.

If you get an amp with DSP, you can skip installing the two crossovers and you get the benefit of each speaker get's its own power. When the kick drum/bass hits, your tweeters can still use full power for the cymbals & that female voice's sexy breathy sounds. If you use a standard two channel amp, it's like you are taking a shower and someone flushes the toilet. The water pressure drops, and you can't wash the soap out of your hair, and the temperature difference is like the crispness of the highs being washed out. That is not 100% accurate but gets the point across. It's a couple hundred more, but it's so worth it. Ask any professional sound installer/ sound engineer. Ask them if they want to run two-way passive or two-way active. Any sound engineers in here who can back me? preferably one who heard my system (that wasn't even dialed in completely.)

25248252492525025251

Some options. Note: I have no experience or opinion of anything but the Audison. Audison is at the same level as these Hertz speakers - competition level. The others, your mileage may vary. Spend the extra couple hundred over the Arc and gain SO much more control, accuracy, etc. For example, I have a controller with two settings, one for when my bike is parked (maximum performance) and one for when I am riding (not as accurate, less bass but more power for volume.)
Audison 8.9 (https://www.amazon.com/Audison-8-9-Channel-Watt-1Xpreout/dp/B00HZK6WMI)
Audison 4.9 (half the power, same DSP) (http://www.ebay.com/itm/AUDISON-PRIMA-AP4-9-bit-AMPLIFICATORE-PER-AUTO-4-CANALI-AP-4-9-bit-/111411045457)
Match PP82DSP (https://www.crutchfield.com/p_975PP82DSP/Match-PP82DSP.html?tp=61674&awkw=75719473705&awat=pla&awnw=g&awcr=48384124825&awdv=c&awug=9022811)
AudioControl DM-810 (http://www.audiocontrol.com/audiocontrol-announces-new-dsp-matrix-processors-full-range-amplifier-product-launches-at-ces-2016/) (DSP only, no amp Audison makes an alternative as well. This could be added to a 4-channel power amp to give similar capability)

:icon_lol: I think if you ask anyone who has heard my system, including you, it's not really lacking. There were some audible differences. If I were to describe it I would say yours had a little richer sound, but I certainly wouldn't say it was a glaring difference. :icon_wink:
I understand where you are on the Audison and it seems to be an awesome tool and piece. No argument there. Remember, however, you're dealing with a different set up with the source. I'd argue that you have more to compensate for with the OEM "head" unit as the source.

Typically, most audio enthusiasts would find little argument in that one of the biggest things to affect sound reproduction is the component at the end of the chain. The component that has to convert electrical signals into the sound waves we hear. That's why I'm considering changing speakers. Who knows, I may look into DSP in the future, but right now it's kind of hard to justify the expense. I even found myself going over to my bike and jamming a bit on the stereo trying to find fault to justify replacing the speakers.:icon_biggrin: It would help if one of them would just blow.

I am also looking at another possible change, but I'll keep that under my hat for now..batman-smilie.

[Jimmytee]

I wound up with two sets, the HSK130 and the HSK165. I used the HSK130 with the 5.25". I used the tweeters from the HSK165 due to "installer error" and still have the crossovers and 6.5" speakers on the shelf.

Where did you end up buying your HSK130s ? Been looking online prices vary from $350 to $599. The $349 price was an ebay source.

[F6Pilot]

I purchased mine through Amazon. Here is a link.

https://www.amazon.com/HSK-HI-ENERGY-COMPONENT-SPEAKERS-CROSSOVERS/dp/B004ISZJ6K/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1484794905&sr=8-1&keywords=hsk+130

[CoCoKola]

Jimmy, wasn't directed at you. My professional opinion was for someone who hasn't bought an amp, and who also may not want to give up room for a subwoofer.

The reality is if someone wants to keep their factory controls for audio, they need the dsp to make up for the what you solved with a alternate head unit. Agreed? You can make it sound great without, as proven above, not absolute.

I measured 130+ db at my speakers without noticeable distortion. I would put a major prize bet that can't be done without active setup.

[Jimmytee]

Ok, I misunderstood then.:icon_wink:

I don't remember exactly what the db measurement was. I did it a while back. I also did comparative db measurements with the original speakers and system and after the amp and speakers were changed. This was when I was still using the factory head unit. What I remember was how dramatic the difference was.

[Jimmytee]

I don't think you can get the Hertz 6.5 in the stock location. The limiting factors are the baskets and magnets. I have a pair that I was going to attempt installing and they are huge.

Just wondering if you thought raising the speaker with a spacer say 3/4" or so would be enough to get the speaker in there?

[F6Pilot]

I don't think the depth is the limiting factor as their is only 4mm difference in depth between the 5.25" and the 6.5". The problem is in the total diameter that runs the full depth. The magnets and the supporting metal basket are huge. I was able to install the previous JBL 6.5" because they were shallow and the metal frame supporting the magnet sloped inward. The Hertz are almost the same diameter, like a cylinder. I can get pictures this weekend to give a visual because I know it's clear as mud.

[Dirtstiff's F6B]

I don't think the depth is the limiting factor as their is only 4mm difference in depth between the 5.25" and the 6.5". The problem is in the total diameter that runs the full depth. The magnets and the supporting metal basket are huge. I was able to install the previous JBL 6.5" because they were shallow and the metal frame supporting the magnet sloped inward. The Hertz are almost the same diameter, like a cylinder. I can get pictures this weekend to give a visual because I know it's clear as mud.

Thanks, that answered what puzzled me about why you did modifications to fit a 5.25" speaker.
J

[Jimmytee]

I don't think the depth is the limiting factor as their is only 4mm difference in depth between the 5.25" and the 6.5". The problem is in the total diameter that runs the full depth. The magnets and the supporting metal basket are huge. I was able to install the previous JBL 6.5" because they were shallow and the metal frame supporting the magnet sloped inward. The Hertz are almost the same diameter, like a cylinder. I can get pictures this weekend to give a visual because I know it's clear as mud.

Yeah, I'm sure you're right. I know with the Polk MM series 6.5" woofers it was a tight fit. Having to make a spacer approximately 1/4" thick I think it was. With the Polks there were 2 challenges. The outer diameter and the spacing around that and the basket clearance in depth. The depth challenge is those sides of the enclosure that come in at an angle. I had a few choice words during the fitting and installation of the Polks. :icon_wink:
An the Polk woofers have the neodymium magnets.:icon_rolleyes:

[CoCoKola]

I don't think the depth is the limiting factor as their is only 4mm difference in depth between the 5.25" and the 6.5". The problem is in the total diameter that runs the full depth. The magnets and the supporting metal basket are huge. I was able to install the previous JBL 6.5" because they were shallow and the metal frame supporting the magnet sloped inward. The Hertz are almost the same diameter, like a cylinder. I can get pictures this weekend to give a visual because I know it's clear as mud.


I tried this at the installer as well, the magnet is so wide there is no way it will fit. Based on my measurements, even if you remove the black plastic enclosure, the brace behind it would be in the way. The only other option would be to check Focal 6.5 to see if the magnet might fit. As long as you go with their top-tier line you should get the same or better output at the Hertz. The 5 1/4 are monsters - they are what the pros use on high-end boats and other installs that have limited space.

[F6Pilot]

Here's a couple of shots for comparison. There's the JBL vs the Hertz 6.5 as well as another including the J&M. As you can see, the aluminum basket on the Hertz is huge.

2528225283

[CoCoKola]

Here's a couple of shots for comparison. There's the JBL vs the Hertz 6.5 as well as another including the J&M. As you can see, the aluminum basket on the Hertz is huge.2528225283I attached comparison photo earlier in this thread that compare stock, hertz,j&l, and polk. Same major difference in size. Went for a ride today, and damn am I pleased..

[AnthonyGen]

All-
I am in complete envy of the sound systems you created on your F6B! I just have a couple of quick questions and hoping some of you "Experts" can chime in.

I'm looking to install a simple amplified budget system and wondering if this will be a simple hook up.

Amp: Rockford Fosgate PBR300x2 - Should I be able to use my existing front speaker wiring and posi-tap wires to feed the amp with a high level input signal? I know the F6B has separate mids and tweeters, but I think the stock system output signal is full range left and right. Am I correct on this part?

Speakers: I'm thinking of using the JL Audio convertible 2-Way 5.25" and just leaving my factory tweeters in the grill unplugged while using the JL tweeters on the mid driver if there is no fitment issues with the stock grill.

I don't need a sub and just looking for louder mids and highs so that I can hear my system on the highway. I had this same amp with Hertz speakers on my Harley Street Glide and it was extremely loud and crystal clear. Rockford made a simple plug and play wire harness for Harley Davidson but I can tell the F6B is going to take a little more creativity and work.

appreciate any input or guidance if what I'm thinking will work.

[Jimmytee]

All-
I am in complete envy of the sound systems you created on your F6B! I just have a couple of quick questions and hoping some of you "Experts" can chime in.

I'm looking to install a simple amplified budget system and wondering if this will be a simple hook up.

Amp: Rockford Fosgate PBR300x2 - Should I be able to use my existing front speaker wiring and posi-tap wires to feed the amp with a high level input signal? I know the F6B has separate mids and tweeters, but I think the stock system output signal is full range left and right. Am I correct on this part?

Speakers: I'm thinking of using the JL Audio convertible 2-Way 5.25" and just leaving my factory tweeters in the grill unplugged while using the JL tweeters on the mid driver if there is no fitment issues with the stock grill.

I don't need a sub and just looking for louder mids and highs so that I can hear my system on the highway. I had this same amp with Hertz speakers on my Harley Street Glide and it was extremely loud and crystal clear. Rockford made a simple plug and play wire harness for Harley Davidson but I can tell the F6B is going to take a little more creativity and work.

appreciate any input or guidance if what I'm thinking will work.

Unfortunately, there is no plug and play. Wish the market was such that someone had come out with one. My experience ultimately had me seeking out the pre amp signal between the "Audio Unit" and the amp. I could not get satisfactory results from trying to adapt the amplifier output to use as signal for another amp. Not saying it can't be done, but my results were less than ideal. In the end , I chose to eliminate the factory system all together. As far as the factory speaker wiring, that too needs to be discarded or not used. Instead, running decent speaker wire of 14 or 12 awg.

[CoCoKola]

All-
Amp: Rockford Fosgate PBR300x2 - Should I be able to use my existing front speaker wiring and posi-tap wires to feed the amp with a high level input signal? I know the F6B has separate mids and tweeters, but I think the stock system output signal is full range left and right. Am I correct on this part?

Speakers: I'm thinking of using the JL Audio convertible 2-Way 5.25" and just leaving my factory tweeters in the grill unplugged while using the JL tweeters on the mid driver if there is no fitment issues with the stock grill.

I don't need a sub and just looking for louder mids and highs so that I can hear my system on the highway. I had this same amp with Hertz speakers on my Harley Street Glide and it was extremely loud and crystal clear. Rockford made a simple plug and play wire harness for Harley Davidson but I can tell the F6B is going to take a little more creativity and work.

appreciate any input or guidance if what I'm thinking will work.

Hey AnthonyGen, welcome to my thread! If I understand correctly, you want to use the existing speaker output from the OEM amp for an input into your Rockford Fosgate? Yes, you can, but you may not get the results you expect. I found the line-level output is out-of-spec (impedance is non-standard and/or the output voltage is below spec) which is why I recommend using a decent line driver or a DSP that can handle it.

The OEM tweeter has a cap to filter lower frequencies, so as long as you tap prior, it would work as inputs for your amp. I would highly recommend that you test this setup before doing a full install. Several folks have tried this common approach, but it resulted in a distorted output from the amp to new speakers. Others have tried using an inexpensive speaker level to line level, but it didn't result in much improvement for them. I was successful using a line-driver (https://www.sonicelectronix.com/cat_i697_line-drivers.html) to get a better result, but I opted to go with the high-end ($$) solution of an amp with DSP instead. The Rockford's high-level input MAY work for you, but results may vary so test it first and if it doesn't sound like you would expect, try adding a line-driver to see if that improves your results, especially one that has a bass boost (https://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_94272_Rockford-Fosgate-Universal-Punch-EQ-RFPEQU.html) to make up for frequencies below 100Hz that are cut by the head unit.

The F6B's speaker gauge can't handle the output of an after-market amp, so make sure you run your own. Ideally 12 gauge, but 14 may work for short runs.

If anyone knows a manufacturer who will return a phone call, let me know. I'd love to get a harness designed for us! I hope this helps, and best of luck.

Cheers!
-Robert

[AnthonyGen]

Appreciate the quick replies.
So, from what I gather it's best to tap the signal from the head unit before the factory amp? I think the head unit it at the rear of the bike? I'll try to wire the amp off of the speaker leads in the fairing first, but going into this thinking it won't give the desired results.

I haven't purchased the Rockford amp yet, so maybe I look at some other compact amplifier options. I've installed some pretty decent systems in cars and even did a system on my prior Street Glide, but I'm finding this Wing is a bit of a different animal. Once I can figure out a clean audio signal from the factory system, I'll be able to figure the rest out of the install. I definitely agree on the wiring upgrade and I'm now thinking either Focal or Hertz speakers (5.25").

Again, not looking for a competition quality system, but something that has crystal clear mids and highs that I can hear at 80mph. I'm sure I'll get the fever later to add rear speakers and maybe a sub in one of the saddlebags. My other main focus is to retain my factory system controls.

[CoCoKola]

Appreciate the quick replies.
So, from what I gather it's best to tap the signal from the head unit before the factory amp? I think the head unit it at the rear of the bike? I'll try to wire the amp off of the speaker leads in the fairing first, but going into this thinking it won't give the desired results.

I haven't purchased the Rockford amp yet, so maybe I look at some other compact amplifier options. I've installed some pretty decent systems in cars and even did a system on my prior Street Glide, but I'm finding this Wing is a bit of a different animal. Once I can figure out a clean audio signal from the factory system, I'll be able to figure the rest out of the install. I definitely agree on the wiring upgrade and I'm now thinking either Focal or Hertz speakers (5.25").

Again, not looking for a competition quality system, but something that has crystal clear mids and highs that I can hear at 80mph. I'm sure I'll get the fever later to add rear speakers and maybe a sub in one of the saddlebags. My other main focus is to retain my factory system controls.


Even with this higher end solution, you need some sort of subwoofer before anyone would say damn that sounds amazing. The Hertz speakers with the audison will give you exactly that crystal clear mids and highs you are wanting as long as you don't mind spending the money it takes to get there. Solutions on the other threads will get you a decent sounding system if you want to spend less. Frankly, I would never do anything less than the ARC amp with the Hertz speakers, but that is just my opinion. The Audison, or the less expensive other DSP amps I listed before is WELL worth it IMHO.

I can't get over how so many folks will spend coin on upgraded suspension or exhaust, but won't spend the coin to get a killer sound system. Now, this is coming from someone who has been out of work for a long time. If you can't afford it, that's a whole other discussion, and I am very much in that position now!
Cheers!

[AnthonyGen]

Robert,
I agree with you. IMHO a great touring motorcycle should have a great sound system and why so many neglect this part is just crazy to me. I'm looking to spend anywhere from $750 to $1000 and with doing the work myself I'm hoping to get a decent start. I wish I was closer to you or Jimmytee because I would gladly pay you to do my install if that were an option. My bike is still clean with only 16 miles on it. It's always more fun doing work on a new bike vs dealing with dirty pieces after a few thousand miles. Unfortunately, my schedule is 50-60 hours a week so I don't get as much time to do the fun stereo stuff.

Thanks again for a great thread here on sound systems.

Best!
Anthony

[CoCoKola]

Robert,
I agree with you. IMHO a great touring motorcycle should have a great sound system and why so many neglect this part is just crazy to me. I'm looking to spend anywhere from $750 to $1000 and with doing the work myself I'm hoping to get a decent start. I wish I was closer to you or Jimmytee because I would gladly pay you to do my install if that were an option. My bike is still clean with only 16 miles on it. It's always more fun doing work on a new bike vs dealing with dirty pieces after a few thousand miles. Unfortunately, my schedule is 50-60 hours a week so I don't get as much time to do the fun stereo stuff.

Thanks again for a great thread here on sound systems.

Best!
Anthony

:yes: Thanks AnthonyGen! Several hundred hours went into getting this sound setup trying different parts/configurations and learning "how to be a mechanic." I've been a professional sound engineer for over thirty years, I've had the pleasure of working on over a hundred different house systems 20,000watt to line array systems in the largest venues in St.Louis, I've had the pleasure of mixing A-list bands/artists such as Blues Traveler, Joan Baez, Beastie Boys and thousands of local/national touring acts. I know sound, have an ear for tuning and doing installs. This was my first mobile audio experience, short of a few car installs when I was a teenager.

If anyone is in St.Louis, MO, or will be in town, let me know and we can meet up to hear for yourself. It is NOT my final result. The subwoofer setup is decent but not as good as it could be. Due to my financial situation, it will have to remain for now.

If anyone is interested in my doing the install, let's talk. I need income badly perhaps we could work something out. Otherwise, if anyone wants help or has questions during their install, send me a PM with their Phone # and let's talk.

cheers!
-Robert