HARLEY SALES DOWN - LAYING OFF WORK FORCE

[adventurous1]

HD sales are down in the U.S. more than double what I earlier thought.

"....it plans to streamline its operations, reorganize and reduce its workforce during the fourth quarter in a move that will cost the company $20 million to $25 million."

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/Harley-Davidson-job-cuts-motorcycle-consumer/2016/10/18/id/754026/

Been using my '06 custom roadliner for daily rides (it has 65K miles) Was thinking about getting a used breakout or Indian Classic for my short 100 mile Sat or Sun rides up / down the coast or thru the canyons. Though I'm digging the B on the shorter runs though it's just a beast in day to day commuter traffic - especially here in So CAL. Whewwwww daddy. But, The tours? The B is wicked !!

[F6B1911]

I'd be curious if the H-D market is fully saturated, or if Indian cut into their sales?

[willtill]

Hard to say.

[adventurous1]

Depending on which reports one reads Indian / Victory has captured 8 to 10 and up to 15 % of the V-Twin market. Who knows?

Last October-ish HD's CEO said they were cutting back 250 employees (about 4 %), now a year later, more cut backs.

Even if Victory and Indian collectively sold 30 to 40K bikes in a yr that's easily 15 to 20 % of HD's U.S. sales (185K ish). So yeah, guess Polaris is making a dent. Just have to keep turning out bullet proof bikes. "Build it, and he will come." to quote a movie phrase. And on that note, Polaris marketing team might want to keep spending $$$$ for product placement in movies and TV.

[unsub]

Is their demographic just getting too old and either dropping off the sport altogether or moving over to a more relaxed ride? Seems to me HD went through a similar cycle (no pun intended) in the late eighties when they reinvented the "bad" image and lured the younger generation in.

Regardless of who is at the helm of HD they seem pretty much stuck in the 20th century with their product.

[Retired Army]

Now for the burning question. Will Harley move production out side of the U.S.? :stirthepot:

[BIGLRY]

Now for the burning question. Will Harley move production out side of the U.S.? :stirthepot:they did that many years ago. Back in 1929, Harley-Davidson contracted with a manufacturing plant in Hiroshina, Japan. Rikuo Internal Combustion Company produced actual Harley-Davidson models that carried the Harley-Davidson label, for use by Japanese military and police. Rikuo continued under contract until 1958.
Harley-Davidson motorcycles are also made in Manaus, Brazil. The factory there opened in 1998 and continues to produce Harley models for the Brazilian market.
In 2011, the company announced plans to open a factory in India to produce the new Street 500 & 750 models

Leaving out the facilities that are corporate, financial, or sales and administrative locations, we end up with a list of Harley’s manufacturing and assembly plants per the Harley Davidson website:
◦Menominee Falls, Wisconsin - Powertrain
◦Tomahawk, Wisconsin - Windshields, composite plastic parts
◦Kansas City, Missouri - Assembly, Powertrain
◦York, Pennsylvania - Fabrication, Paint, Final Assembly
◦Manaus, Brazil - CKD* Assembles models sold in Brazil
◦Bawal, India - Manufacture of Street models for India, Italy, Spain, and Portugal

*CKD means complete knockdown. Models are basically built in the US, for example, and reassembled in the country where the bikes are sold.


Technically speaking, Harley-Davidson motorcycles sold in the United States are not actually made here, but assembled here. Harley contracts manufacturing of parts to plants located all over the world, including Germany, Italy, Taiwan, Japan, and Mexico. Those parts are then shipped to Harley factories here. So, where are Harley-Davidson motorcycles made? All over the world, actually, but those sold in America, are assembled here in the United States, using a lot of foreign made parts.
At least for now, anyway.:icon_lol:

http://backintheusa.us/articles2.php?title2=howamericanisharleydavidson

[VStarRider]

This is an interesting discussion on many levels.

No brand screams "American Made" more than Harley-Davidson. Ironically, like everything else manufactured in the world today, its parts come from multiple locations and are funneled to a U.S.-based assembly plant (for U.S. sold bikes)...but they still get credit for being American-made. Yet, despite the global nature of H-D, if they moved one of the assembly plants to Mexico or another location, the perception would shift and there would be significant backlash.

[jm21ddd15]

This is an interesting discussion on many levels.

No brand screams "American Made" more than Harley-Davidson. Ironically, like everything else manufactured in the world today, its parts come from multiple locations and are funneled to a U.S.-based assembly plant (for U.S. sold bikes)...but they still get credit for being American-made. Yet, despite the global nature of H-D, if they moved one of the assembly plants to Mexico or another location, the perception would shift and there would be significant backlash.

The company "Henry Repeating Rifle Co", products are entirely 100 percent made in the US. Their motto is "Made in America, or not made at all". All manufacturing and assembly is done in our country. But, I wonder where they buy the raw steel from? I will check into this.

[Deer Slayer]

Spyder is cutting in as old riders chose third wheel.:cheers:

[SimonTemplar]

None of this is terribly surprising.

When the MSRP of a CVO Ultra is deep into the $40K's...and the technology and reliability of that bike is deep into the 1970's....and the entire used HD market is as totally saturated as it presently is (and will be far into the foreseeable future)....Why would anyone spend the money for new?

HD has brought this upon themselves. They thought they could get by and just coast on the HD name without investing in product improvements. On top of it, they turned away from their traditional customer base, nearly tripled their prices, and pandered to the affluent white-collar buyers instead. Now it has all come home to bite them on the ass.

Not only did they voluntarily shoot themselves in the foot....they used a 12-gauge shotgun to do it.



Nope...I harbour no sympathies for them. H-D has become the Edsel of the motorcycling world. Their day is done.




....sT

[opas ride]

[QUOTE=SimonTemplar;137586]None of this is terribly surprising.

When the MSRP of a CVO Ultra is deep into the $40K's...and the technology and reliability of that bike is deep into the 1970's....and the entire used HD market is as totally saturated as it presently is (and will be far into the foreseeable future)....Why would anyone spend the money for new?

HD has brought this upon themselves. They thought they could get by and just coast on the HD name without investing in product improvements. On top of it, they turned away from their traditional customer base, nearly tripled their prices, and pandered to the affluent white-collar buyers instead. Now it has all come home to bite them on the ass.

Not only did they voluntarily shoot themselves in the foot....they used a 12-gauge shotgun to do it.



Nope...I harbour no sympathies for them. H-D has become the Edsel of the motorcycling world. Their day is done.
I totally agree my friend!!...I have tried to convince myself for over 30 years that I wanted to buy a HD just to have the experience...Thank God I never became that "stupid"....Ego, Greed and self-centeredness with get you every time.....

[Retired Army]

I am wondering if Harley should apply for a Federal Firearms License to bolster sales? There's always a crowd at the neighborhood gun shop.

[adventurous1]

Do you remember in the not-too-distant past that Harley attitude of no deals, no discounts.... and God forbid you ask for a test ride before spending 20 to 30 K. Lol lol lol. Oh, and if we allow you to purchase one of our bikes, we may give you $500 gift certificate towards our clothing that is made in China.

And, when their financing department was in monstrous trouble (during the Great Recession) for giving loans like candy to anyone who brought into their marketing for waaaaay over priced bikes, HD was able to convince Congress that HD financial was a really a "banking institution". Believe HD received about $1 billion of our money to safe their A$$$$ from going BK.

Believe that's the same time HD introduced a two-tier wage for new employees on their manufacturing/assembly line.

[bubbasparks]

Last year at a victory demo ride there was a lot of guys trading in for victorys and some traded in for goldwings. A lot of them we're stating that they were tired of getting so hot from sitting in traffic at Sturgis Ect. One guy even said if they put the v-rod motor in a bagger, they would improve sales and move into the future lol. I've never understood why they have never went water cooled on all of their bikes.

[SimonTemplar]

Do you remember in the not-too-distant past that Harley attitude of no deals, no discounts...........


No need to remember that. My local dealership is still trying to do business that way yet today. I know a woman who went in, with checkbook in hand, prepared to write a check for the full MSRP (as per the HD website) price of a RoadGlide. They refused to sell it to her for that...instead demanding significantly more for the bike. When she asked why they would not accept the price the company spec'd...they told her she was stupid to think she could buy one for that price.


Smart girl.....she walked. Purchased it a county away the following day.




.....sT

[ReserveBum]

Yesterday I had a conversation with my dealer who is pretty knowledgeable. I asked about our F6 not on Honda's 2017 line up and he said he wasnt surprised. But he said sometimes Honda releases more models later in the year. He said the whole industry is down. Said Yamaha has dropped some models also. His dealership is Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki and also sell ATV's and snowmobiles and have laid off one of their salesmen. Also said they picked up CFMoto and Kymco ATV's and that has helped them stay afloat

[opas ride]

Yesterday I had a conversation with my dealer who is pretty knowledgeable. I asked about our F6 not on Honda's 2017 line up and he said he wasnt surprised. But he said sometimes Honda releases more models later in the year. He said the whole industry is down. Said Yamaha has dropped some models also. His dealership is Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki and also sell ATV's and snowmobiles and have laid off one of their salesmen. Also said they picked up CFMoto and Kymco ATV's and that has helped them stay afloat

Pretty much what I am hearing and seeing around here in SE Michigan area...My Honda dealer has not sold a GW or F6B in weeks and is one of the largest Honda dealers in Michigan. They also sell Yamaha's which are also not moving off the floor...GM said they only sold 3 F6B's so far this year and they were leftover models.. Hopefully things will get better next year, but they also have nothing new on any of the 2017 model line up as yet....Doubt the F6B will be around any longer although.....Ride safe

[VStarRider]

Okay, this is making me nervous...big picture:

-Harley is laying off employees due to slow sales
-Ford has suspended production of the F-150, Mustang and Taurus due to excessive inventory
-We have had 87 months of economic growth, one of the longest stretches in between recessions

Economists say that the auto market always precedes the full economy and use it as an indicator. Harley sales are dropping (I actually hope it is just from an overpriced and outdated lineup), and according to Opas Ride, his dealer is facing slow sales for all brands. I was at my snowmobile dealer yesterday and the place was a ghost town (though his business has been winding down for years).

I wonder if we are on the cusp of an economic slowdown. How is the RV market doing? That's another major indicator.

Wages and median income were up 5% last quarter so maybe these outcomes are indicative of something else smaller than the economy as a whole.

[Maddoggie501]

I'd be curious if the H-D market is fully saturated, or if Indian cut into their sales?

I believe if you do some research you will find the entire motorcycle industry is in a slump

[lake_carl]

I live at Lake of the ozarks always fresh water boating mecca. The new boat sales here are 100k and up in values and any information know have had best year since 06.

[opas ride]

I live at Lake of the ozarks always fresh water boating mecca. The new boat sales here are 100k and up in values and any information know have had best year since 06.

Lots of people have lots of cash to spend in many parts of the country...Check out the docks in San Francisco or Miami Beach sometime....Most boats/toys are well over 100K and up...I'm just a little guy and really have no interest in boats so I'll stick with my $20K F6B for now....Ride safe

[ReserveBum]

I believe if you do some research you will find the entire motorcycle industry is in a slump

The sales are not there from the younger crowd. It appears most riders are of the older persuasion and ....you know the rest of that story

[willtill]

The sales are not there from the younger crowd. It appears most riders are of the older persuasion and ....you know the rest of that story

Yep. Viagra. Pirates on Viagra.

Wat is the world coming to? :icon_mrgreen:

[adventurous1]

Okay, this is making me nervous...big picture:

-Harley is laying off employees due to slow sales
-Ford has suspended production of the F-150, Mustang and Taurus due to excessive inventory
-We have had 87 months of economic growth, one of the longest stretches in between recessions

Economists say that the auto market always precedes the full economy and use it as an indicator.

Yup. Good times nor bad times last forever. Unfortunately, most of America's public (aka 'the middle class') do not prepare for the downward business cycle (aka, the banks stop printing $ then retake people's homes who cannot pay mortagages because expansion and easy of $ has been purposely stopped by banks).

Trust everyone here is saving about 10 - 20 % of their weekly paycheck to always be prepared for this. Believe this downturn happens about every 5 to 7 yrs (historically speaking). This is the time where people who have been wise and saved can now purchase good used bikes (1-3 yrs old) from bikers who are desperate for $$$$ and in turn save thousands of dollars. Picked up my '13 B last March w/ 4K miles for 11K cash. Is that a 7 or 8K saving (factoring in depreciation of course) plus saving taxes, fees, etc. ? The savings from just one this 1 purchase alone, allowed me to enjoy 2 huge majestic and memorable bike vacations this year and then some.

From all accounts, that down cycle is coming soon to the middle class. And, I'm one of 'em.

[VStarRider]

Yup. Good times nor bad times last forever. Unfortunately, most of America's public (aka 'the middle class') do not prepare for the downward business cycle (aka, the banks stop printing $ then retake people's homes who cannot pay mortagages because expansion and easy of $ has been purposely stopped by banks).

Trust everyone here is saving about 10 - 20 % of their weekly paycheck to always be prepared for this. Believe this downturn happens about every 5 to 7 yrs (historically speaking). This is the time where people who have been wise and saved can now purchase good used bikes (1-3 yrs old) from bikers who are desperate for $$$$ and in turn save thousands of dollars. Picked up my '13 B last March w/ 4K miles for 11K cash. Is that a 7 or 8K saving (factoring in depreciation of course) plus saving taxes, fees, etc. ? The savings from just one this 1 purchase alone, allowed me to enjoy 2 huge majestic and memorable bike vacations this year and then some.

From all accounts, that down cycle is coming soon to the middle class. And, I'm one of 'em.

Good advice here. I burned through money in my 20s as if it would turn to dust if I didn't spend it as soon as I got it. I had brand new snowmobiles, WaveRunners, boats, ATVs, trucks, and probably some other stuff I am forgetting. Ended up $38k in credit card debt!

Different story now. Some tough, self-imposed lessons starting around 2008. About 80% of that debt is gone. The Mrs. and I live in a house that is well within our means (mortgage payment represents 20% of our take-home, not gross, pay; I drive a '14 Chevy Cruze, she drives a 2004 Mazda Tribute), we save 10% of our take home pay into savings and 15% of our gross into retirement accounts ( I am one of the few remaining workers with a pension). I have the bike and sleds and a camp, but all reasonably priced and either paid for or have low interest loans.

I get a lot of comfort from having some savings built up and a lot in retirement accounts. I am not bragging; this was not always the case. I was ready for bankruptcy about 8 years ago. Glad I saw the light!

I think if one (or a couple) keeps their housing costs in check, and can "survive" driving modest vehicles and keeping them for a long time, that is key to saving cash, for retirement, and being able to take vacations or have a bike, etc, etc. and not be buried in debt.

[opas ride]

Good advice here. I burned through money in my 20s as if it would turn to dust if I didn't spend it as soon as I got it. I had brand new snowmobiles, WaveRunners, boats, ATVs, trucks, and probably some other stuff I am forgetting. Ended up $38k in credit card debt!

Different story now. Some tough, self-imposed lessons starting around 2008. About 80% of that debt is gone. The Mrs. and I live in a house that is well within our means (mortgage payment represents 20% of our take-home, not gross, pay; I drive a '14 Chevy Cruze, she drives a 2004 Mazda Tribute), we save 10% of our take home pay into savings and 15% of our gross into retirement accounts ( I am one of the few remaining workers with a pension). I have the bike and sleds and a camp, but all reasonably priced and either paid for or have low interest loans.

I get a lot of comfort from having some savings built up and a lot in retirement accounts. I am not bragging; this was not always the case. I was ready for bankruptcy about 8 years ago. Glad I saw the light!

I think if one (or a couple) keeps their housing costs in check, and can "survive" driving modest vehicles and keeping them for a long time, that is key to saving cash, for retirement, and being able to take vacations or have a bike, etc, etc. and not be buried in debt.
Good discipline my friend...I did okay and thought all would be okay in retirement..Left the work force at 66 years old with a pension, social security, and, what I thought was a fairly decent retirement fund...Well 2008/9 hit and I lost over 75% of my 401K assets...8 years later I have only recovered about 15% of what I lost....My monthly income covers all my bills, etc. and I am doing okay for now...but our Medical costs now are over $800 a month, wife is Diabetic , etc. and her small Social Security check just covers our medical bills....Advise from the "know it all gods" say you will need at least $1 million in your retirement fund in todays world and if you retire today at 65 and live to be 85, you will spend over $360,000 in medical costs alone......Save, Save, Save......Don't want be a "doom sayer" as we are doing fine now at 77 years old, but it gets a little scary at times as things get crazy!!!...Ride safe

[F6B1911]

Good discipline my friend...I did okay and thought all would be okay in retirement..Left the work force at 66 years old with a pension, social security, and, what I thought was a fairly decent retirement fund...Well 2008/9 hit and I lost over 75% of my 401K assets...8 years later I have only recovered about 15% of what I lost....My monthly income covers all my bills, etc. and I am doing okay for now...but our Medical costs now are over $800 a month, wife is Diabetic , etc. and her small Social Security check just covers our medical bills....Advise from the "know it all gods" say you will need at least $1 million in your retirement fund in todays world and if you retire today at 65 and live to be 85, you will spend over $360,000 in medical costs alone......Save, Save, Save......Ride safe

Hi there Opas Ride,
Not sure what's happening in your situation, maybe you need to call Obama ask why your Medical costs are so high, he clearly stated it would be AFFORDABLE, in fact he named it "The Affordable Care Act."
My deductible this year went up to almost $4,000.00, but can't seem to get a hold of Obama to see what happened to my health care.
He's probably still trying to catch up on calls and letters.

[opas ride]

Hi there Opas Ride,
Not sure what's happening in your situation, maybe you need to call Obama ask why your Medical costs are so high, he clearly stated it would be AFFORDABLE, in fact he named it "The Affordable Care Act."
My deductible this year went up to almost $4,000.00, but can't seem to get a hold of Obama to see what happened to my health care.
He's probably still trying to catch up on calls and letters.

Obama and his Democrat "asshole buddies" are full of crap!!!...What is a shame is that this great nation with all its wonders etc. has one of the Worst and most expensive health care systems in the world!!...Only ones that benefit are the very poor and the very rich along with the drug companies....Oh well it is what it is...Ride safe

[Brewdog]

I'm not surprised that they continue to layoff. No one that I know cares anymore. HD have ignored their customer requests for bigger increases in horsepower and performance for years. Every year the prices go up with no value added. Most guys I know have given up waiting for HD to come up with high performance bagger.

Ever notice how all the really "tuff guys" ride the slowest bikes on the planet. LMAO. :lolup: HD does have the highest "Parking Lot performance" of any motorcycle on the planet. 'riding'