Linked brakes

[speeddrive1]

So out of curiosity, do you riders use both front and rear brakes when stopping or do use front or rear only?
I have been using both but I get a hot brake smell from the rear and the recall has been done.
There is no drag from the rear brake when on the c stand,I can spin the wheel by hand easily.

[willtill]

Did you pump the rear brake pedal fully 5 times, and then attempt to spin the wheel while on the center stand (that's the test for the sticking rear brake).

I normally use both front and rear brakes when slowing down.

[pilotguy299]

I generally use both, and sometimes downshift as well.

[53driver]

Two different issues:
1. Hot brake smell from the rear. All the time? Every ride? Once in awhile? Is this under normal braking or severe braking? If normal braking, I'd definitely do as Will suggested and see if things aren't dragging even just a bit as that will heat them up and them normal braking exacerbates the situation. Should never smell your own brakes under normal use.

2. Which brake to use.
For maximum braking efficiency, always practice using both brakes. That way, in extremis, your muscle memory will kick in and you'll brake as best you and the bike are able.
Realizing that as you brake, the weight shifts forward to the front tire. The front brake can be up to 70% of your stopping power because of this shift, so learn to use it properly.
The corollary is that as the weight shifts forward, this unloads the rear tire weight, making the rear tire more susceptible to locking up. Skidding the rear tire isn't an epic issue, but it doesn't give you maximum braking.
Practice "threshold braking" - taking both brakes to the "I'm-almost-skidding-both-tires" point. The tires will talk to you. They will howl as they are approaching skidding. Learn to listen to your bike and PRACTICE doing this from "typical, normal" speeds.

For more fun and games, sign up for the one day MSF Advanced Rider Course. 8 fun exercises that will put more tools in your toolbox and give you things to practice that aren't slow speed maneuvering in a 20' box. (Which the F6B is more than capable of, by the way)
Cheers,
Steve

[speeddrive1]

I will try the 5 pumps of the rear brake and see if that does it.
Never had a bike with linked brakes, and have always used both for stopping so I wasn't sure if using the front and a slight amount of rear was over loading the rear being it already getting applied from using the front.

[53driver]

I will try the 5 pumps of the rear brake and see if that does it.
Never had a bike with linked brakes, and have always used both for stopping so I wasn't sure if using the front and a slight amount of rear was over loading the rear being it already getting applied from using the front.

Ahh. Even different question! No, not at all. The bike was engineered for both brakes to be utilized simultaneously.
The rear brake pedal actuates a front caliper piston as well.....

Cheers,
Steve

[2wheelsforme]

I will try the 5 pumps of the rear brake and see if that does it.
Never had a bike with linked brakes, and have always used both for stopping so I wasn't sure if using the front and a slight amount of rear was over loading the rear being it already getting applied from using the front.

I do not have a F6B yet but do have a VTX-1800 with linked brakes. It does not apply rear brake when pulling the front lever. It actuates four of the six existing pistons on the front calipers. The only link is the pedal for rear break will apply the rear caliper and the other 2 of the 6 pistons on the front calipers. If Honda uses the same system for the B then no danger of over using/loading the rear break. Additionally 53driver is correct that you need to use both front lever and rear pedal to get the most braking power, that is the only way to use all pistons. I have never had a problem with too much front brake using only the rear pedal. Please someone tell me if Honda is using a diff linked brake system on this bike.

[willtill]

I do not have a F6B yet but do have a VTX-1800 with linked brakes. It does not apply rear brake when pulling the front lever. It actuates four of the six existing pistons on the front calipers. The only link is the pedal for rear break will apply the rear caliper and the other 2 of the 6 pistons on the front calipers. If Honda uses the same system for the B then no danger of over using/loading the rear break. Additionally 53driver is correct that you need to use both front lever and rear pedal to get the most braking power, that is the only way to use all pistons. I have never had a problem with too much front brake using only the rear pedal. Please someone tell me if Honda is using a diff linked brake system on this bike.

Yes, on the F6B actuating the front brake lever will cause the left front caliper to pivot upwards, engaging the anti-dive mechanism which also will route fluid (pressure) to the proportioning valve. That in turn will apply pressure to the pistons in the rear caliper.

It's a hot mess. :icon_mrgreen:

http://i65.tinypic.com/10zwo6w.jpg

So in the way you described your VTX's system, the F6B is different from it.

[Bigcityd]

To correct a misnomer that was mentioned earlier. Locking up the brakes is actually the most effective way to stop as this does several things. It maximizes the kinetic energy being dissipated by both friction and heat. The tire heats ups, displacing some of it's rubber to the road service, which then allows the following tire to grip better on the rubber coated road surface(skid mark), additionally the rubber leaving the tire surface piles up in front of the wheel (snow plowing), aiding in shorten stopping distances.

Having said all of this, it's also the most dangerous way to stop as a stationary tire has no means of steering or assisting in the maneuvering of the bike. As a result and I believe this is what the previous author meant, was that keeping the wheel at the limit of rotating adhesion is the best way to stop quickly. Hence ABS keeps the wheels at the threshold of lock up, maximizing braking efficiency while also keeping the tire rolling, allowing for steering input. The linked braking system is designed to put those braking forces proportionally at the right wheel as was said earlier, the front brake takes on the lion share of the braking once the inertia shifts forward.

Honda has always been a safety leader in both cars and bikes. I don't understand why everywhere else in the world, the F6B has ABS standard except in the US. Strange marketing choices.

[speeddrive1]

Ok, did the 5 pumps of the rear brake and immediately could spin the rear tire by hand with no problem.

[JMartin]

... I don't understand why everywhere else in the world, the F6B has ABS standard except in the US. Strange marketing choices.

I too, have always wondered this.

And... Why in the heck don't all bikes have self-cancelling turn signals? I've had bikes that are 20 years old that had this feature.

[53driver]

To correct a misnomer that was mentioned earlier. Locking up the brakes is actually the most effective way to stop as this does several things. It maximizes the kinetic energy being dissipated by both friction and heat. The tire heats ups, displacing some of it's rubber to the road service, which then allows the following tire to grip better on the rubber coated road surface(skid mark), additionally the rubber leaving the tire surface piles up in front of the wheel (snow plowing), aiding in shorten stopping distances....



I respectfully disagree. I will get links to the raw data showing that skidding tires actually increases braking distance.
Unless, of course, locking the front tire is a recipe for a low side and that's how you want to stop? Didn't think so.
Skidding the rear tire actually lessens the coefficient of friction.

Let me get the data and we can compare notes in a new thread.
Cheers,
Steve

[Steve 0080]

I too, have always wondered this.

And... Why in the heck don't all bikes have self-cancelling turn signals? I've had bikes that are 20 years old that had this feature.

Those are both easy to answer $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$....not until the gov. forces it to happen. ( ABS )

[2wheelsforme]

Yes, on the F6B actuating the front brake lever will cause the left front caliper to pivot upwards, engaging the anti-dive mechanism which also will route fluid (pressure) to the proportioning valve. That in turn will apply pressure to the pistons in the rear caliper.

It's a hot mess. :icon_mrgreen:

http://i65.tinypic.com/10zwo6w.jpg

So in the way you described your VTX's system, the F6B is different from it.

Yes that is quite different. No antidive on the X, so no line to the rear brake. Still its is excellent brakes and I hear the F6Bs are also great, prob even better. It is my understanding that a "high side" is when you lock up the rear brake and the back of the bike starts coming around on you, you get off the rear brake while already going somewhat side ways. That result is the back tire stops sliding and the bike tosses you high to make a less than soft landing. Very common. The rear brake cannot be locked up with the system on my VTX. I call it Honda making the bike stupid proof because you cannot "high side" which the major cause of is people being scared of the front brake.

[Bigcityd]

I respectfully disagree. I will get links to the raw data showing that skidding tires actually increases braking distance.
Unless, of course, locking the front tire is a recipe for a low side and that's how you want to stop? Didn't think so.
Skidding the rear tire actually lessens the coefficient of friction.

Let me get the data and we can compare notes in a new thread.
Cheers,
Steve


Steve,

I stand corrected. The situation can only work as I described on a non paved road surface or one covered in snow. The rolling tire to the point of lock is the most effective way to stop. Here is the science.

Stopping Distance

Stopping distance is extremely important for emergency braking. The stopping distance is 1 based on the deceleration rate. Also, it is affected by the tyre deflection, air resistance, braking efforts and the inertia of the driveline. Distance travelled by the vehicle during application of brake can be obtained from the following equations of motion assuming the brake efficiency as 100%.

If the vehicle comes to stand still due to application of brake, the final velocity, V = 0 in the above equations, then stopping distance, S is given by the relations, S = U /2f.
The stopping distance remains same with the same tyre and road conditions, when the wheels are locked and skidding, regardless of the weight, number of wheels or vehicle load. Maximum braking force occurs when the wheels are braked just before the locking point or point of impending skid. Non-skid brake systems are designed to operate at or below this point. Any changes in load on a wheel changes the point of impending skid.
Example 28.2. Calculate the minimum stopping distances for a vehicle travelling at 60 kmlhr with a deceleration equal to the acceleration due to gravity.

[speeddrive1]

What does that have to do with the original question

[53driver]

What does that have to do with the original question


So out of curiosity, do you riders use both front and rear brakes when stopping or do use front or rear only?
I have been using both but I get a hot brake smell from the rear and the recall has been done.
There is no drag from the rear brake when on the c stand,I can spin the wheel by hand easily.

Speeddrive1,
Yes, sometimes threads stray from the original intended topic - but please realize that all (99.99996%) of the posters on this forum mean well.
The OP needs to keep the focus on his issues by guiding the thread to his desired end state - no interest like self interest!
(You may have noticed where I told the one gentleman that we would continue that thread separately.)

You asked basically two questions:
1. "Do you riders use both front and rear brakes when stopping or do use front or rear only? "
2. "I get a hot brake smell from the rear and the recall has been done, why?"

For question 1:

For maximum braking efficiency, always practice using both brakes. That way, in extremis, your muscle memory will kick in and you'll brake as best you and the bike are able.
Realizing that as you brake, the weight shifts forward to the front tire. The front brake can be up to 70% of your stopping power because of this shift, so learn to use it properly.
The corollary is that as the weight shifts forward, this unloads the rear tire weight, making the rear tire more susceptible to locking up. Skidding the rear tire isn't an epic issue, but it doesn't give you maximum braking.
Practice "threshold braking" - taking both brakes to the "I'm-almost-skidding-both-tires" point. The tires will talk to you. They will howl as they are approaching skidding. Learn to listen to your bike and PRACTICE doing this from "typical, normal" speeds.

For question 2:
You tried the 5x pump & spin trick and the tire rotates freely - that's a good sign - fluid is flowing out of the return hole freely.
And "over-loading" the brakes is not going to happen under normal use - maybe under track conditions in the Nevada desert in July.
So why are you smelling hot brakes?
I had inquired:

Hot brake smell from the rear. All the time? Every ride? Once in awhile? Is this under normal braking or severe braking? If normal braking, I'd definitely do as Will suggested and see if things aren't dragging even just a bit as that will heat them up and them normal braking exacerbates the situation.
The other thing I was thinking about is that maybe your right foot is pressing slightly on the pedal all the time and causing the pads to contact and heat up.

Please help us understand the scope of the problem by telling us under what conditions and how often you smell your rear brake.
Cheers,
Steve

[speeddrive1]

53driver, I appreciate your response. Now you have me thinking, could I be unconsciously riding the rear break? When I get back to my shop where the bike is I am going to sit on that sucker and pay attention to where my feet are. I usually am very careful about riding brakes or slipping clutches because that stuff cost money and having owned my own semi for the last 25 years I don't like to do clutches or brakes prematurely.

[53driver]

53driver, I appreciate your response. Now you have me thinking, could I be unconsciously riding the rear brake? When I get back to my shop where the bike is I am going to sit on that sucker and pay attention to where my feet are. I usually am very careful about riding brakes or slipping clutches because that stuff cost money and having owned my own semi for the last 25 years I don't like to do clutches or brakes prematurely.

It's just one thing that has happened to certain people.
I have a size 9 foot....not a problem for me, but I've heard where men with size 12s and boots weighing in pounds instead of ounces can inadvertently apply enough pressure to cause the brake light to stay on or drag the pads.
Professional drivers "generally" are VERY aware of where their feet and toes are - for the reasons you mentioned.
However, it's a possibility that needs to be explored and if applicable, ruled out.

What I'm trying to do is eliminate all possibilities while the bike is in your shop, before you take it to a dealer for any potential warranty work.

And again, how often does this phenomena happen? Every ride? Hot days only?
Cheers,
Steve

[speeddrive1]

So I sat on the bike last night in a normal riding position and just don't think that I could be riding the rear brake. I also wear a size 9 boot my toes when on the bike are slightly pointed out completely clear of the brake pedal.
Unfortunately it is too cold to ride right now but in the spring I will get my infrared thermometer out and take some temp readings of the rotor and driveline to see if anything is actually getting hotter than it should.
I should mention that I commute to work at 430 in the morning about 15 miles of freeway and 2 miles of divided highway that has 2 traffic lights . I pull up to the shop and can smell hot something like brakes.

[stroguy]

So I sat on the bike last night in a normal riding position and just don't think that I could be riding the rear brake. I also wear a size 9 boot my toes when on the bike are slightly pointed out completely clear of the brake pedal.
Unfortunately it is too cold to ride right now but in the spring I will get my infrared thermometer out and take some temp readings of the rotor and driveline to see if anything is actually getting hotter than it should.

The rear pedal is on a spline with multiple small notches. If you think you may be subconsciously riding the pedal you can move it upwards one notch. That should keep your foot from shifting left and hovering over the pedal.

[willtill]

The rear pedal is on a spline with multiple small notches. If you think you may be subconsciously riding the pedal you can move it upwards one notch. That should keep your foot from shifting left and hovering over the pedal.

Be VERY, VERY careful when reinstalling the rear brake pedal on the spline if you do this. The splined shaft will EASILY push into the frame; and it's a REAL BITCH to get it pushed back out.

Been there, done that :icon_doh:

[stroguy]

Be VERY, VERY careful when reinstalling the rear brake pedal on the spline if you do this. The splined shaft will EASILY push into the frame; and it's a REAL BITCH to get it pushed back out.

Been there, done that :icon_doh:

This is true, make sure you remove the locking bolt on the brake pedal, don't just loosen it, take her all the way off. Then pull the pedal and reinstall gently without the bolt.

[willtill]

This is true, make sure you remove the locking bolt on the brake pedal, don't just loosen it, take her all the way off. Then pull the pedal and reinstall gently without the bolt.

AND... to fully remove the locking bolt from the rear brake pedal.... you have to remove the entire right side driver's peg bracket... :shock:

:icon_lol:

Ain't the bike a fine specimen of Nipponese engineering? :icon_mrgreen:

[speeddrive1]

Thanks fellas for the ideas. I honestly don't think I could be riding the brake cause if I barely touch it the tail light comes on and that would kick the cruise off. I haven't had any problems with the cruise kicking off yet. I really do like the bike and maybe I am making something out of nothing but I haven't heard of anyone else having a hot smell coming from the rear area of their bike.
-20 forecasted for Saturday night so I doubt that I will be riding the bike any time soon, it's snowmobile season!

[willtill]

Thanks fellas for the ideas. I honestly don't think I could be riding the brake cause if I barely touch it the tail light comes on and that would kick the cruise off. I haven't had any problems with the cruise kicking off yet. I really do like the bike and maybe I am making something out of nothing but I haven't heard of anyone else having a hot smell coming from the rear area of their bike.
-20 forecasted for Saturday night so I doubt that I will be riding the bike any time soon, it's snowmobile season!

Do you have a center stand? Put your bike up on it and run it through the gears; using the rear brake as you normally would. Have someone observe the rear caliber. Pull in the clutch when you have it at speed and see if the wheel abnormally slows down without brake input. After running it for a bit; apply the brake one final time and then shut it down... and inspect the rotor and pads.

Be careful.

[Travelor]

So out of curiosity, do you riders use both front and rear brakes when stopping or do use front or rear only?
I have been using both but I get a hot brake smell from the rear and the recall has been done.
There is no drag from the rear brake when on the c stand,I can spin the wheel by hand easily.

Just to eliminate a possible cause of a dragging brake, pull off the right side cover (above the brake pedal) and check the fluid level in the brake reservoir. Make sure it is below the max fill marking. If it is overfull, it could possibly (very rare) be preventing brake fluid from returning to the master cylinder as it warms up. Or - is there any chance you have worn out the pads and are smelling metal on metal?