Okay, I'm late to the party, and certainly not an engineering exhaust scientist.
But if an exhaust can "suck about 10hp out of a system" couldn't a differently engineered (read as aftermarket) exhaust restore that?
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George I did a little research last night. Cycleworld put a set of monster ovals , so same design on a stock HD. 103 motor. Before and after dyno pulls yielded a 5% increase in HP and a 9% increase in Torque. Granted its not a B but it is an internal combustion engine.
Can I first say that I'm not trying to be obstinate or hard-headed. Really, I'm not! :icon_biggrin:
Skeptical yes; but not arguing for the sake of arguing.
Dyno's can be made to give you whatever information you want. When magazines and retailers dyno, or otherwise test, product that they're receiving advertising money for, there's an incentive to show the product in a favorable light. I won't accuse Cycleworld of skewing results but I will point out this conflict of interest which makes their results non-definitive to me. In the professional world of scientific and engineering testing, such conflicts send the results automatically to the round file.
I'd be much happier to see results like this from a Joe Schmoe user like you or me where no money is exchanging hands.
Let me ask this, how many exhaust design articles can we find where they say it's beneficial to send gases into pressurized chambers?
How many designs like this do we see on race vehicles?
This is an exhaust for sound man, not performance.
Okay...so if the stock exhaust on a bike is similar to the one in your "non-performance vehicle example", then by merely replacing the exhaust, with a V&H or Thunderheader, we can then see possibly a horsepower increase?
I concur that pipes don't actually "make" horsepower...the engine "makes" horsepower, but I'm concluding from George's examples that a freer flowing exhaust allows the engine to achieve more of it's potential if it's not already peaked.
And I'm not trying to be obstinate or argumentative. I'm trying to learn....
It depends on the OEM muffler, 53. If the OEM muffler is particularly restrictive, installing a freer flowing exhaust should show some gains. But if the OEM muffler is already free flowing, putting an aftermarket free flowing exhaust won't do much of anything.
And, for the little bit I know, putting a restrictive exhaust on can never be good in terms of power.
Engine builders speak of something called "pumping losses"; among other things, pumping losses are power losses due to the engine moving air. Assuming for the moment that we're talking about a naturally aspirated motor like we have, airflow into and out of the motor is accomplished solely by the pistons; they "suck" air in on the intake stroke and "push" air out on the exhaust stroke.
Air movement is not a "freebie"; it takes engine power to breath. The potential gains from a K&N air filter or from an aftermarket exhaust are based on creating a freer flowing air path... which reduces pumping losses... which makes more of the existing power available at the rear wheel.
Just for grins here's a GL1800 dyno from a guy called Nedro on the other forum. From what I gather, his bike is stock and the AFR readings were done with a tail pipe sniffer. AFR of 13 at the tail pipe should be about 12.5 or so pre-cat; which is pretty much exactly where we want to be. With the AFR dialed in so nicely, the only other thing a guy like Don Guhl can play with to make more power is timing... and breathing mods or a hotter cam.
From other comments in that thread, it looks like most agree that this is a typical result... 95 to 100 hp at the wheels on a stock platform.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-R...1800riders.jpg
And George I'm not trying to ram anything down your throat. I really enjoy a stimulating conversation. Listen you have to understand that this exhaust is not a race exhaust. Any good street exhaust has to balance HP and Torque. There has to be a compromise of flow and back pressure. Its a complicated design. No body would go to the trouble of building an exhaust this complicated unless there were benefits. These guys don't phone it in. I apppreciate your views George.
Thanks Shooter, I appreciate and share that sentiment.
Nothing would make me happier than to see someone put ANY exhaust on this bike and show 105 or 110 hp. Then we'll debate dyno calibration, operator technique, and environmental conditions :icon_biggrin:
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All in all I'm pretty happy with the way they turned out. Stripped and recoated for < $100, still pissed it had to be done in the first place!
Cobra 6. Had them on for a hundred miles before some woman broadsided me. Loved the sound. Looks like I'll be getting new ones.
My pipes on my old bike sounded better than Harleys -- according to the HD riders I ride with -- but they were wide open all the way through.
I've heard more than once that it's almost not worth the effort to monkey with the pipes on the F6B and try to get a ROAR out of 'em because it just isn't going to happen. I've looked at the Cobra slip-ons and the V&H. They're louder, but it's still not where I'd like it, so I don't see the point of spending the money for it.
Has any of this changed since this thread was first posted? Thanks.
I think the only way to get a decent loud exhaust sound out of the F6B, without the dreaded DRONE, is to cut out the catalytic converters and run pipes with baffles removed. I had the Cobra 6's and with the cats and no baffles it sounded good at idle but on the highway is was horrible. The drone was so bad I took them off the next day.
Vance & Hines still fit the F6B the best . I just picked up a black F6B and was pondering what I was going to put on the bike . The 2013 still has the chrome so I stuck with it and ordered the V&H set again .
Did you ever run the bike with the baffle plate out ? Sound pretty mean but I have other bikes that make noise ... LOL
The Vance & hines has a nice sound , I actually paid less for the pipes this time $767 of flee-Bay .
Any chance of you getting a dyno pull with the V&H?
George is obsessed with the V&H. He has convinced himself they can't be any good. George I still have my stock pipes. If you will pay for two dyno runs we can check mine.
Naw, that offer expired :icon_mrgreen:
Speaking of Dyno for off highway use only has anyone done any work to the catalytic converters , I see power commander makes a V for the wing , wonder if that would work on the F6B .
Lots of people run the Torque Loops which completely removes the cats, which, IMO, should reduce pumping losses and free up a couple of hp.
For the V Commander, yes it'll work... but what exactly are you trying to do? That only adjusts your fueling, so if your goal is worse fuel economy that should be fine :icon_biggrin:
If you had mods that actually needed more fuel, this might be a good solution. But when you're in that deep, a custom tune from Guhl should be the focus... and let him advise *if* and *how much* more fuel is needed. I haven't seen much talk about fuel injector size; I'm assuming they're big enough for a decent bump in capacity.
My only concern would be a lean condition with no cats , just about every manufacture has there bikes leaned out for emissions these days .
Im not out racing my wings but do want them burning valves , not really planing any major preformance mods to the motor besides V&H Monster exhaust .
Good thought Max; no worries though about burned valves or dropping valve seats with just an exhaust. Did you happen to see the video in post #107?
Manufacturers do lean the AFR... but only at idle and low load conditions. You'll see 14.7 on just about anything new-ish on the road. Under load, however, there is simply no getting around the need for a richer mixture. From the few dyno sheets I've seen, GL1800's are dialed in PERFECTLY at about 12.5 at WOT (wide open throttle). Exhaust work won't change that; you'll need to alter the intake side for that.
Pretty much narrowed it down to Two Bros or nothing. V & H just too darn expensive, over 1100 $ Cdn. Just waiting for real world on bike reviews from the first buyers.
Can anyone tell me how the stock 2013 pipes sound in comparison to the stock 2015 pipes. Is it a big difference, I heard the 15's are more throatier.
George you are putting words in my mouth. I said nothing of the sort. I do not run around trashing products without good reason like some people I know. Bird , I can feel a difference in my bike. I am probably more in tune with engine performance than some others. No it doesn't have 20 more HP. So far on my rides this year fuel mileage is up about 1.5 mpg. I am on vacation right now in Branson. Been down in Arkansas the last few days. Bike is performing great. Absolutely no drone with the V&H. Ask my wife. I installed the pipes as part if a master plan. This fall I will send the ECM to Guhl. While its out I will install the K&N filter and look at the airbox to see if I can get more air into it. As much as George can't stand it I believe V&H makes a great pipe. I haven't seen anything to the contrary and this is a company that has roots going back over 40 years. These guys are winners and they manufacture good products. I try to spend my money wisely , I think I made a good purchase. Oh and Bird they look awesome. For some reason George has an unfounded vendetta against this company. Apparently he fancies himself a flow engineer. So who do you listen to. George who can look at a pipe and tell its no good , or a company with roots going back over 40 years that backs up their claims by building THE fastest HD and Suzuki's on the planet. Personally George looks kinda small next to that. Sorry George.
Hey Bird I'm not trying to talk you into any other pipe. Its your bike. You need to do what you feel is right for you. I was merely defending my decision. And giving you the info I have at my disposal. Mostly trying to convince George of the possibility that he may be wrong. Which is probably an epic fail. I think his middle name is Flowmaster.:poke:
Well Shooter, my opinions and rationale are stated above; if that makes me "small" and with an "unfounded vendetta" so be it.
Maybe the V&H for our bikes is not like that video; it could be totally different for all I know. These are good looking, good sounding pipes; no question. However... I did notice that you're now interested in dyno'ing your bike :icon_mrgreen:
Flowmaster? Naw... who wants chambered garbage in their flowpath. Magnaflow is where it's at.
(where's that stick and pot icon)
No George I'm really not. If its up to me or on my dime I'm not interested. Its not rocket science. More air in , more air out , more fuel. Timing advance and better fuel helps also. You're problem is that you aren't willing to admit that a multimillion dollar company that has spent decades researching and developing a product to the highest standards can actually build a product that makes our bikes more efficient and powerful. Although they have the best engineers and R&D people along with possibly the best testing facility available. I've seen stubborn before , but not of this magnitude. Continue to be a non believer. I don't care. Just don't put words in my mouth.
Sorry Shooter. I hope a reasonable person would see that as a joke and nothing more; I'll edit that post to make it clear. Happy now?
Let's watch the replies here: http://www.lxforums.com/board/showth...y-Check-Please
And thats biased George because Joe Blow off the street is telling the world that they are no good. Chances are , and I mean a very good chance he knows even less than you or I. And I'm not claiming to be an expert , only deferring to a knowledgeable company. It don't matter buddy. They cost a little more but they don't drone. They look great , sound great and perform well. Mission accomplished.
I put a lot of faith in reports from knowledgable and trustworthy people. I trust V & H as a company. They've been around a long time and have had their exhaust systems on most winning drag bikes. If money was no object, I'd have a set of their slip-ons installed long ago. But sadly spending $1200 Cdn with taxes is not in my cards. But seeing George and Shooter debate this subject reminds me of some other topics that are dear to my heart. Too bad Smith & Wesson doesn't make mufflers 🔫
Well that's true, the video is biased... but I tried asking the question without bias.
Is V&H gonna be at the Rally? I really need to have sit-down with these folks and see what they can say. I could very well be wrong my friend... but I'd need lots of charts, graphs, and pictures to understand :icon_mrgreen:
HA! Please don't go there again Terry :crackup:
For those of you who have chosen Cobra, please clarify something for me. Do you have the 6 into 2 into 6 pipes or do any of you have what I think is the discontinued single outlet (3 into 1)?
On Cobra website they have model 1216, but with no pictures, nor can I find any on Google except for one very small poor quality photo of an older Goldwing. Is this pipe still made and does it fit a F6B?
I like the looks (closest to stock look).
I would be interested and prefer these over the 6 outlets.
Regarding the youtube video with truck stacks... was this a stock system from Cobra or did this owner weld his own extended tips on a Cobra system?
Rush Racing 2 1/2" baffles, Black with Milled Aluminum end Caps, The only way to go.....................Dickie
Anyone get a set of two siblings yet? Im real interested to hear if they drone, or if they are obnoxiously loud.
Yes, I just installed the Two Brothers pipes. I made a video comparing the TBR pipes and the 2014 stock pipes.
https://youtu.be/lrg-caRg130