Dammit, Honda!

So, the F6 is sold as of this afternoon. Had more interest in than I expected. Used FB Marketplace and Craigslist, and FB generates far more interest. Two week turnaround time, and got more for it than I feared I might have to take.

The eventual buyer took a look at it Sunday evening, and I rode it to a nearby park to meet him. I have only been riding the new to me full Wing since June 15.

Only a mile away, I rode it and sat on my Corbin seat and that much different seating position and thought to myself, “Dammit, Honda! Why couldn’t you put ABS on these bikes?!?!” If they had, I have no reason to sell.

While that’s my reason, most tire kickers that took a look at the bike said they’ve loved it since it came out, but lack of cruise control is what kept them from buying and keeps them from buying used.

I'm sorry. I've never felt handicapped because I didn't have abs. The B has the best brakes of any bike I've ever owned.

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Originally Posted by Cooter

I'm sorry. I've never felt handicapped because I didn't have abs. The B has the best brakes of any bike I've ever owned.

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I kinda think that some of the potential buyers for your bike were using these issues as an excuse of sorts...I have never ever had any braking issues with my 2013 deluxe and never had any reason to use cruise control...I guess some feel these extras are necessary otherwise Ma Honda would probably not have put them on newer models...In any event, glad you sold your bike and I hope you enjoy the full wing....Regards

I am starting to see low mileage (2-5k mi) DCT wings for $15,999 - $16,999. Has me thinking but not willing to take $11k for my 2014 Deluxe with 10k miles. $12,500 gets my interest though. Hmmm

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Originally Posted by Cooter

I'm sorry. I've never felt handicapped because I didn't have abs. The B has the best brakes of any bike I've ever owned.

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Well, it wasn’t an issue for you ... you bought one!

My Wing has ABS, don't miss it (as of yet anyway) on the B. Would rather it did have it, but not a deal killer for me.

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Originally Posted by VStarRider

Well, it wasn’t an issue for you ... you bought one!

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Never owned a bike with abs. Can't miss what you don't have. You can't replace skill and ability with electronics. If you think you can't lose the front with abs , you're wrong. Being aware of the conditions and making changes accordingly will make a difference. You've changed everything about your ride staking your well being on abs. It's not the end all answer to adverse conditions and situations.

You can't replace skill and ability with electronics.
Well, that's debatable. But more importantly, often you can't replace adrenaline with skill and ability.... That instant preceeding a "panic" stop doesn't give enough time for skill and ability to over ride the reflex of grabbing a handful of brake. The bike goes down because the wheel locks instantly, and you haven't even got to the scene of the crash yet! That's when (and only when) you'll "miss" ABS. In controlled settings, you're correct, ABS will not better a skilled rider (racers don't typically use it). An expert rider can apply the brakes in such a way as to first transfer weight, maximize the contact patch, and then squeeze on the exact pressure to just about lock the wheel. But this is when he (or she) has the opportunity to be anticipating the brake marker. Lap after lap. He is completely absorbed in picking that brake point and then maximizing braking performance. On the street however, when a deer runs out, or the mattress flies off the truck, most riders - even experts who are fully engaged in the ride - will often not be able to control that first snatch of the lever.

Emergency braking is one of the most important skills to practice I think. And yes these bikes have really good brakes, the best I've ever had on a bike. I still bet ABS would be even better for the average Joe!

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Originally Posted by 2wheelsforme

Emergency braking is one of the most important skills to practice I think. And yes these bikes have really good brakes, the best I've ever had on a bike. I still bet ABS would be even better for the average Joe!

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Totally agree my 2013 F6B has ABS and it worked for me when confronting 3 kangaroos. I sure would like cruise though.

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Originally Posted by DarkKnt

You can't replace skill and ability with electronics.
Well, that's debatable. But more importantly, often you can't replace adrenaline with skill and ability.... That instant preceeding a "panic" stop doesn't give enough time for skill and ability to over ride the reflex of grabbing a handful of brake. The bike goes down because the wheel locks instantly, and you haven't even got to the scene of the crash yet! That's when (and only when) you'll "miss" ABS. In controlled settings, you're correct, ABS will not better a skilled rider (racers don't typically use it). An expert rider can apply the brakes in such a way as to first transfer weight, maximize the contact patch, and then squeeze on the exact pressure to just about lock the wheel. But this is when he (or she) has the opportunity to be anticipating the brake marker. Lap after lap. He is completely absorbed in picking that brake point and then maximizing braking performance. On the street however, when a deer runs out, or the mattress flies off the truck, most riders - even experts who are fully engaged in the ride - will often not be able to control that first snatch of the lever.

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Well put.

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Originally Posted by DarkKnt

You can't replace skill and ability with electronics.
Well, that's debatable. But more importantly, often you can't replace adrenaline with skill and ability.... That instant preceeding a "panic" stop doesn't give enough time for skill and ability to over ride the reflex of grabbing a handful of brake. The bike goes down because the wheel locks instantly, and you haven't even got to the scene of the crash yet! That's when (and only when) you'll "miss" ABS. In controlled settings, you're correct, ABS will not better a skilled rider (racers don't typically use it). An expert rider can apply the brakes in such a way as to first transfer weight, maximize the contact patch, and then squeeze on the exact pressure to just about lock the wheel. But this is when he (or she) has the opportunity to be anticipating the brake marker. Lap after lap. He is completely absorbed in picking that brake point and then maximizing braking performance. On the street however, when a deer runs out, or the mattress flies off the truck, most riders - even experts who are fully engaged in the ride - will often not be able to control that first snatch of the lever.

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Originally Posted by 2wheelsforme

Emergency braking is one of the most important skills to practice I think. And yes these bikes have really good brakes, the best I've ever had on a bike. I still bet ABS would be even better for the average Joe!

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I don't think it's as debate-able as alleged, but maybe for the "average Joe"?

Okay, simple question:
Why be average?
(The average guy drives a Ford E______)

I encourage everyone to be "better than average."
In the high risk experience that is motorcycling, "average" isn't good enough.
Strive to be better than others around you in the Quality that is YOUR motorcycle riding.

How?
Take a class or two and LEARN techniques for PROPERLY employing your brakes and while you're at it, learn some cornering skills?

We all know that ABS, when engaged, actually INCREASES your stopping distance.
Properly applied brakes, whether ABS of not, will give you the MINIMUM stopping distance available for that particular scenario.

If you KNOW you are not using and practicing threshold braking religiously abilities and have no desire to do so, then yes, ABS is your crutch.
Please enjoy responsibly.
Cheers,
Steve

Great Post Steve. I wonder how many guys and gals actually practice stopping and close quarter turns. I am by far NOT the best rider out there. I do strive to be better by practicing when I can. I have stretches of back roads near my house that I use and vacant parking lots on the weekends. You can improve your skills with a little practice.

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Originally Posted by Verismo

Well put.

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Agreeing with your agreed. ABS is just behind oil and tires as a topic that generates opinions. I don’t think one’s ability to maximize braking minus electronic assistance in a panic stop is a physical attribute, it’s a mental one.

We can practice threshold braking every day, but I don’t know how to practice for not impulsively grabbing the brake when a vehicle pulls out in front of you suddenly and you have 50 feet and one second to manage that situation. One could make the argument that a series of events led up to a scenario like this, and I would agree...but sometimes it’s too late to reverse those factors.

With my ABS equipped Wing, I’m not riding any further degree of risk than I am when I’m driving my airbagged, stability controlled Subaru compared to my 87 Dodge Shadow, which had none of these features. I do ride with a feeling of confidence that, in the event of a panic stop situation, my decision making reserves can be applied to an escape route, not threshold braking with several possible other factors instantly accounted for by the ABS and not my brain.

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Originally Posted by VStarRider

We can practice threshold braking every day, but I don’t know how to practice for not impulsively grabbing the brake when a vehicle pulls out in front of you suddenly and you have 50 feet and one second to manage that situation. One could make the argument that a series of events led up to a scenario like this, and I would agree...but sometimes it’s too late to reverse those factors.

With my ABS equipped Wing, I’m not riding any further degree of risk than I am when I’m driving my airbagged, stability controlled Subaru compared to my 87 Dodge Shadow, which had none of these features. I do ride with a feeling of confidence that, in the event of a panic stop situation, my decision making reserves can be applied to an escape route, not threshold braking with several possible other factors instantly accounted for by the ABS and not my brain.

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Well said. Preparation is one thing and absolutely necessary for safer riding, but the reality of a panic driven handful of front brake is quite another. The tires were chirping and the ABS chattering the other day on my K1600GTL when the teenager driver looked right at me and pulled out anyway.

I guess the over-arching thing here, as represented by several posts, is: don't panic.
Maybe that's easier for me to say than most, being a 20 year military helicopter test pilot with over 170 combat missions.
Maybe I'm full of sh*t.

But I firmly believe that anytime you allow your brain to "permit panic", you are inviting unwanted variables.

Assuming an average IQ & physical fitness....muscle memory, perfect practice, and repetition of proper techniques will save your adrenaline filled, panic stricken brain better than technology.
Cheers,
Steve

Some info that you can or not believe: http://www.therideadvice.com/abs-mot...otorcycle-abs/

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Originally Posted by 2wheelsforme

Some info that you can or not believe: http://www.therideadvice.com/abs-mot...otorcycle-abs/

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Great article thankyou for posting. I watched a demonstration on ABS by BMW at a Ulysses AGM some years back. That sold me on the concept.

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Originally Posted by 53driver

I guess the over-arching thing here, as represented by several posts, is: don't panic.
Maybe that's easier for me to say than most, being a 20 year military helicopter test pilot with over 170 combat missions.
Maybe I'm full of sh*t.

But I firmly believe that anytime you allow your brain to "permit panic", you are inviting unwanted variables.

Assuming an average IQ & physical fitness....muscle memory, perfect practice, and repetition of proper techniques will save your adrenaline filled, panic stricken brain better than technology.
Cheers,
Steve

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Steve - while I have met you and respect your experience, knowledge and contributions to this forum, I do have to wonder how many times technology saved your ass on those combat missions? To each his own, but I will opt for ABS anytime I can get it.

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Originally Posted by 2wheelsforme

Some info that you can or not believe: http://www.therideadvice.com/abs-mot...otorcycle-abs/

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Yes, great article, far more scientific than others I have read about ABS. Several studies, outlined in the article, explain how ABS outperforms riders in all practicable situations. Not to mention, ABS bikes are between 10-38% less likely to have a collision claim or fatality, depending upon the study.

There is a huge fundamental difference in the members on this forum. It's completely different way of thinking. Some people want the challenge of being in total control of their machine. Every aspect of the ride is up to them and all decisions will be theirs to live and die by. Others don't want all the responsibility and decisions left up to them preferring to have certain aspects of the ride set in stone. A baseline if you will. Certain things that they don't have to worry about or prepare for. I'm not saying one or the other is bad or good. I think it follows social lines. Some people are more proactive than others. I've always preferred to be in control of my own destiny. I don't leave anything to chance and I always try to control the situation. Preparation is key.

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Originally Posted by Cooter

There is a huge fundamental difference in the members on this forum. It's completely different way of thinking. Some people want the challenge of being in total control of their machine. Every aspect of the ride is up to them and all decisions will be theirs to live and die by. Others don't want all the responsibility and decisions left up to them preferring to have certain aspects of the ride set in stone. A baseline if you will. Certain things that they don't have to worry about or prepare for. I'm not saying one or the other is bad or good. I think it follows social lines. Some people are more proactive than others. I've always preferred to be in control of my own destiny. I don't leave anything to chance and I always try to control the situation. Preparation is key.

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Cooter, I agree with what you wrote above, in spirit. I might frame each side of the ABS debate differently but the essence of it would be the same.

I get the perspective of wanting full control of your ride and the risk that comes with that ... I can see the sense of freedom in that.

I don’t see having ABS as giving up anything in my riding experience, but this is why we have differing opinions. I appreciate the civil discussion and which this could happen far more often in our state and national capitols.

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Originally Posted by DarkKnt

You can't replace skill and ability with electronics.
Well, that's debatable. But more importantly, often you can't replace adrenaline with skill and ability....

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This is when ABS becomes quite valuable.


allen

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Originally Posted by VStarRider

Cooter, I agree with what you wrote above, in spirit. I might frame each side of the ABS debate differently but the essence of it would be the same.

I get the perspective of wanting full control of your ride and the risk that comes with that ... I can see the sense of freedom in that.

I don’t see having ABS as giving up anything in my riding experience, but this is why we have differing opinions. I appreciate the civil discussion and which this could happen far more often in our state and national capitols.

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Quote Originally Posted by Cooter View Post
There is a huge fundamental difference in the members on this forum. It's completely different way of thinking. Some people want the challenge of being in total control of their machine. Every aspect of the ride is up to them and all decisions will be theirs to live and die by. Others don't want all the responsibility and decisions left up to them preferring to have certain aspects of the ride set in stone. A baseline if you will. Certain things that they don't have to worry about or prepare for. I'm not saying one or the other is bad or good. I think it follows social lines. Some people are more proactive than others. I've always preferred to be in control of my own destiny. I don't leave anything to chance and I always try to control the situation. Preparation is key.

Can't believe that this could be turned into another political discussion, but there you have it.... :(

I don't understand why you are griping about our posts. You don't have to click on it or even read it. It's not political , it's social. V-Star and I have both been respectful and polite. If we can't have posts like this then why have a forum. I didn't even mention Trump. Yet.

According to Pirsig, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" Quality is made up from two approaches, Classic & Romantic.
The Classic approach takes the underlying form and derives Quality from a very scientific perspective.
The Romantic view looks at the whole entity and derives Quality from the overall effect on the individual.

Some people like to be in complete control of everything.
Others are content with chosen aspects of their 'everything' relegated to some sort of automation.
This goes to everything from riding, to cooking, to purchasing almost anything, to paying taxes.

It's not that one way is superior, or even better, it's just the way we choose to think.
Cheers,
Steve

PS - as a first born son & aircraft pilot, I have learned that I am a controller. I need to be in charge of everything that affects me.
How do I "control" the paying taxes gig? I vote, and I delegate that process to my wife who really enjoys numbers.

I'm pretty sure that's what I said Steve. I'm not the great orator that you are but I try. I do respect other peoples opinion and their right to do it their way.

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Originally Posted by 53driver

I guess the over-arching thing here, as represented by several posts, is: don't panic.
Maybe that's easier for me to say than most, being a 20 year military helicopter test pilot with over 170 combat missions.
Maybe I'm full of sh*t.

But I firmly believe that anytime you allow your brain to "permit panic", you are inviting unwanted variables.

Assuming an average IQ & physical fitness....muscle memory, perfect practice, and repetition of proper techniques will save your adrenaline filled, panic stricken brain better than technology.
Cheers,
Steve

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Perfect Steve...Panic kills