Rode 4 Indians at a Demo event today...

Okay, so I have to figure out what the deal is with our suspensions. Of the 4 Indians that I rode today, the Scout was the only one that didn't have a more plush and enjoyable, for the sake of cruising, suspension than my F6B. Obviously, ours handles sportier riding MUCH better, but that is not a priority for me on the B. Comfort is.

Before anyone gets too defensive, don't get me wrong here. I love the B. And the engine and transmission are second to none for both performance and lack of heat. I don't know how anyone in Texas deals with the heat coming off that back cyclinder on the Indian. Wow. Roasted nuts anyone? However, the riding triangle was super comfortable on all models, and both the forks AND the rear suspension just seemed to soak up the road so much better. On the B, it's almost always a distraction, and at worst, pretty jarring. Not to mention, even with Heli bars, I'm having trouble finding the sweet spot for a comfortable triangle.

I have a few hypothesis, and I guess I'm going to have to research and test them as much as I can to figure this out. The first thing that comes to mind is a much bigger front tire. More rubber equals less jarring. Never ceases to amaze me when one goes from low profile tires on a car to long lasting tires with loads of tread. The difference in the ride is always remarkable. I have seen a bigger front tire on a B before, but I'm not sure if other mods had to be made to accomodate. Any input here would be appreciated. I haven't checked fork diameters of the B versus the Indians, but it's also possible that there is just more surface area to the springs. Is it even possible to change to larger forks? Another thing which I'm not sure is possible to change is the spring tension for the throttle. It's SO much easier to twist on the Indians. What would one have to do to lighten this on the B? Pull the bike all the way apart to get to the throttle bodies and put in a lighter spring?

The rear seems easier to tackle. Arnott air shock. Eventually. When I win the lottery.

ANY input or thoughts are appreciated on this topic, as crowdsourcing this will make it easier to tackle. However, please don't think I'm trying to run down the bike. I'm not. I'm trying to make one of the best motorcycle platforms on the planet more comfortable to me.

Jason

Jason.....

An inexpensive option for the rear is to go Darkside and try a car tire. Looks like the average pressure from the guys here is in the 32 - 34 lb range in the back. For about $150 or so, you could try that out. Hopefully those here who are riding on a CT will chime in as to comfort WITH the stock rear shock. That's cheap city compared to Arnott or Traxxion plus the benefit of God knows how many miles you'll get off that CT.....30,000 miles or more? I've got a back-up rear black rim with a brand new Bridgestone on it from a trike maker and will be putting a CT on it over the next few weeks to see if the GF gives it a thumbs up or down. I've yet to find the sweet spot on the rear knob setting to date for both of us.

Jason, what tire pressures are you running? The owner's manual has the front tire at a lower pressure, presumably to make the softer tire pressure part of the front suspension system. As for the front forks, there are a few options including Progressive and Traxxion, there maybe others.

Walcrow-- A dollar to a donut says you're exactly right about the CT on the rear adding some comfort for a low investment. I imagine, at some point, I'll give that a try. It makes me slightly nervous at this point still owing as much as I do on the bike considering insurance may have something to say about it if something goes wrong. Also, it's not like any of the Indians had car tires on them, so I'd really like to at least figure this out, if not outright fix the issue.

Ths61, I'll have to check tire pressures to see if they've drifted from the stock settings. I haven't checked in a couple of rides. I was considering the monotubes for fork replacements, but I still haven't heard too many people talking about there being a big improvement in plushness, which is what I'm really looking for. Most people I've heard that mention those or the Traxxion upgrades talk about losing the steering wobble, and a general sense of a taut locked-in suspension after the upgrade, but that is flat out not what I'm looking for. Those Indians today SOAKED up the road imperfections, and if it's not a fixable issue on the B, then I'd at least like to identify why that's the case. I doubt this is all that complicated. It's just difficult to pin down because of the first person nature of the experience.

Jason

I just compared fork specs from the B to the Chieftan, and the Chieftan is a millimeter wider, but has a 10th of an inch less travel, and weighs about 30 pounds less. I have no idea what the spring rates inside the forks are, but the dimensions seem too close, at least upon superficial inspection, to be the culprit.

Verismo, I don't pretend to be a suspension expert by any means, but after reading this I'm wondering if you didn't hit on it with your other thread about rake & trail. Do you know what the R & T is on those Indians? Maybe, just maybe that difference is making the front wheel of the "B" react in more of a straight line to the handlebars thus causing that roughness, whereas if the Indian's wheel was reacting to bumps in a not so direct path to the bars, the bumps would be soaked up so to speak by the geometry of the front end.
Just some thoughts, I really have no idea.

I have the Traxxion Full Monty and it adds zero "plushness". However, it improves every other facet of riding/handling.

Unsprung weight is suspension stressor so bigger tire might bridge road imperfection but will ride and make handling likely worse. Low profile tire have stiffer sidewalls and those tires absorb less road feel. I bet if you rode 2 up or put those Indians through some curves you would start to feel many issues with soft normal ride.

I owned a 2016 Indian Chief. Not long after I brought it, I was in the Honda dealership to P/U a throttle rocker for the Chief. I was looking at a "B's" they sitting on the floor when a young salesman said, "want ah take it for a ride?" Let me run home & get my helmet & jacket. I took that new 2016 "B" for about 15 miles run. When I got back I tried to make a deal but the dealer fees (almost 2k) ran me off. I brought a very nice 2013 "B" & put the '16 Chief on the market with only 600 miles on the clock.
I found the Chief very, very top heavy, handled awful, rear cylinder heat would cook your "doda's", sweat something awful. After a ride it would take me 2-3 hours to clean it. It had a beautiful Corvette red & pearl white custom paint job, a real eye catcher. I sold it. Did better than I thought I would, lost a few bucks but I was never so glad to get rid of a bike in my life.
I've owned several dozen bikes but this is my first Honda, I must say, I think Honda has this whole motorcycle thing figured out.

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Originally Posted by Verismo

... Most people I've heard that mention those or the Traxxion upgrades talk about losing the steering wobble, and a general sense of a taut locked-in suspension after the upgrade, but that is flat out not what I'm looking for. ...
Jason

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The Traxxion front suspension got rid of the vibrations that were killing my wrists. It also got rid of the wandering and makes the bike track much better so it was both performance and a more comfortable ride for me. Their rear shock did not make the bike any more plush which was a disappointment.

Also look at the foam grip covers, they are very cheap. I have big mitts and they made my hands less cramped with the larger padded diameter. The heated grips still work through the foam grip covers.

This doesn't help the OP's question, but, all I know is, I rode my friends Roadmaster for a couple of backroad miles at his suggestion. He loves his and wanted me to try it. I couldn't wait to get my bike back. He said mine was ok, but wanted his back too. He likes his adjustable windshield, being a lot shorter than me. It just shows you that everyone is different and the perfect bike is an individual taste. I'm no perfectionist in handling and ride comfort. I haven't touched mine and am happy. The Indian was heavy and loud. I didn't have the time or expertise to critique it much more than that. I just think the Honda is the perfect bike for me.

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Originally Posted by ths61

The Traxxion front suspension got rid of the vibrations that were killing my wrists. It also got rid of the wandering and makes the bike track much better so it was both performance and a more comfortable ride for me. Their rear shock did not make the bike any more plush which was a disappointment.

Also look at the foam grip covers, they are very cheap. I have big mitts and they made my hands less cramped with the larger padded diameter. The heated grips still work through the foam grip covers.

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I will definitely be getting those foam grip covers, and I appreciate the candor Ths61. I know it's tough to invest money into something and then have to critique it objectively, but I really appreciate the honest feedback because that's VERY helpful in, at the very least, beginning to ask the right questions, which brings me to six2go's thoughts-

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Originally Posted by six2go

Verismo, I don't pretend to be a suspension expert by any means, but after reading this I'm wondering if you didn't hit on it with your other thread about rake & trail. Do you know what the R & T is on those Indians? Maybe, just maybe that difference is making the front wheel of the "B" react in more of a straight line to the handlebars thus causing that roughness, whereas if the Indian's wheel was reacting to bumps in a not so direct path to the bars, the bumps would be soaked up so to speak by the geometry of the front end.
Just some thoughts, I really have no idea.

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You and me both, six2go! If I had a real clue I would've fixed this already, lol. But there is something about your observation that rings true. There is some single thing, or some combination of the geometry of the rider triangle, and the geometry of the bike that contributes to this overall roughness, and I just haven't pinned it down, yet. As far as the rake on the Indians, I don't think that's all there is to the story. I actually rode five Indians, and just miscounted because two of them were black. Excluding the little Scout, which was "cute" but not in the same league, 3 of the Indians I rode had 25 degree rakes, and one had a 29 degree rake. They were all MUCH less harsh than the B. The biggest difference on the 29 degree rake was that the engine seemed to kick off WAY less heat to the rider, which was really interesting. The prevailing theory was that the wind was different due to the rake. But as far as I could tell, the 29 degree Indian, which is what our B is, didn't have a noticeably rougher ride.

I'm 100% spitballing here, but I wonder if the engine placement doesn't play a part in this. For most of my life, I've been completely enamored by the horizontally opposed Goldwing platform. I've owned 4 iterations of it, and have always marveled at its smoothness and linear torque delivery. For the first time, I'm wondering if having all that weight FORWARD doesn't set the forks up for a difficult to impossible task. If you think about a V twin, which I've always considered a far inferior, for the most part, engine, it does indeed have a higher center of gravity. But it also has the weight, due to the rear cylinder, spread more evenly over the wheelbase, possibly distributing forces more evenly over the front and back suspension. Maybe it's possible that because there is so much weight forward on the GL1800, the spring rates have an impossibly narrow margin between being stiff enough to keep the bike steady, or so soft that you get a dangerous pogo effect.

Has anyone on here ever tested lighter springs in the forks? I bet they bottom out pretty quickly. It would be interesting to hear some real world ride experiences.

Anyway, I am extremely busy at work for the next week, so I don't have much time to think on this. But I do love the feedback and read it and appreciate the time and ya'lls thoughts. Just coming up with the right questions would be a big step in mitigating the harshness as much as possible, even if it can't altogether be eliminated. Shoot for plush, land wherever physics says we have to, lol. And even sticking with stock, we're still talking about motorcycles and riding an F6B, so all is good!

Jason

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Originally Posted by Verismo

I will definitely be getting those foam grip covers, and I appreciate the candor Ths61. I know it's tough to invest money into something and then have to critique it objectively, but I really appreciate the honest feedback because that's VERY helpful in, at the very least, beginning to ask the right questions, which brings me to six2go's thoughts-



You and me both, six2go! If I had a real clue I would've fixed this already, lol. But there is something about your observation that rings true. There is some single thing, or some combination of the geometry of the rider triangle, and the geometry of the bike that contributes to this overall roughness, and I just haven't pinned it down, yet. As far as the rake on the Indians, I don't think that's all there is to the story. I actually rode five Indians, and just miscounted because two of them were black. Excluding the little Scout, which was "cute" but not in the same league, 3 of the Indians I rode had 25 degree rakes, and one had a 29 degree rake. They were all MUCH less harsh than the B. The biggest difference on the 29 degree rake was that the engine seemed to kick off WAY less heat to the rider, which was really interesting. The prevailing theory was that the wind was different due to the rake. But as far as I could tell, the 29 degree Indian, which is what our B is, didn't have a noticeably rougher ride.

I'm 100% spitballing here, but I wonder if the engine placement doesn't play a part in this. For most of my life, I've been completely enamored by the horizontally opposed Goldwing platform. I've owned 4 iterations of it, and have always marveled at its smoothness and linear torque delivery. For the first time, I'm wondering if having all that weight FORWARD doesn't set the forks up for a difficult to impossible task. If you think about a V twin, which I've always considered a far inferior, for the most part, engine, it does indeed have a higher center of gravity. But it also has the weight, due to the rear cylinder, spread more evenly over the wheelbase, possibly distributing forces more evenly over the front and back suspension. Maybe it's possible that because there is so much weight forward on the GL1800, the spring rates have an impossibly narrow margin between being stiff enough to keep the bike steady, or so soft that you get a dangerous pogo effect.

Has anyone on here ever tested lighter springs in the forks? I bet they bottom out pretty quickly. It would be interesting to hear some real world ride experiences.

Anyway, I am extremely busy at work for the next week, so I don't have much time to think on this. But I do love the feedback and read it and appreciate the time and ya'lls thoughts. Just coming up with the right questions would be a big step in mitigating the harshness as much as possible, even if it can't altogether be eliminated. Shoot for plush, land wherever physics says we have to, lol. And even sticking with stock, we're still talking about motorcycles and riding an F6B, so all is good!

Jason

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I know this is probably not the input your looking for, but perhaps you should consider trading for the new 2018 with the all new front suspension system??..Those that have ridden the thing say it is far superior to the older F6B front end.... I might look at doing something next fall, but like many others on this site I have invested a lot of money and time getting my current ride the way I want ...(Investment is a lousy word) as extra "bling" on a bike is a waste of money for the most part..I have Kury grips on mine,run about 37/38 lbs. in the front tire and it works okay for me...When the time comes, and I feel the need, I will probably trade, or install Progressive springs and All Balls bearings in the thing and ride it for a while longer....

Just a remark on front tire pressure; Traxxion Dynamics told me to run 34psi in my front tire; after I had their front suspension package installed.

Jason, you are not alone. I noticed the difference in ride quality when I rented a Chieftain in D-FW in November 2016. Very smooth, and absorbent. Remember that the Chieftain has an air shock in the back, which contributes to the ride quality.

I agree with the others that the Chieftain is a loafer, but the Honda is significantly faster and better handling.

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Originally Posted by VStarRider

Jason, you are not alone. I noticed the difference in ride quality when I rented a Chieftain in D-FW in November 2016. Very smooth, and absorbent. Remember that the Chieftain has an air shock in the back, which contributes to the ride quality.

I agree with the others that the Chieftain is a loafer, but the Honda is significantly faster and better handling.

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Thanks for the solidarity, VStarRider! I know we're not the only ones who feel this way. I found an informative thread on this topic here

http://gl1800riders.com/forums/5-gl1...?action=thread

The GL1800 is an interesting platform. On a smooth surface, you really get to experience the unbelievable turbine-like powerplant and there's nothing like it. The whole bike feels like a miracle. However, on irregular or rough surfaces, that harshness gets translated right to the hands and the arse. If I had more time, I'd wrap an accelerometer around the bars and then go do the same thing to one of those Indians so we'd have some hard data rather than just the subjective experience. But since I don't, subjective will have to be good enough for now.

When I stand the bike up off the side stand, I notice that I lose at least an inch of travel on the forks. That makes me think that other observations are correct and that the bike is possibly undersprung. I think my first "fix" will be to install the Progressive Monotubes and see where that lands me. Next will be a bigger front tire that I can comfortably run 34 psi in. If it doesn't totally do the trick, I may eventually get a triple tree with more rake, and I'll do the tapered bearings at that point. My hypothesis is that if I rake the front end a few degrees, then that will center the engine weight some and spread it over front and rear suspensions more evenly. I'll lose some handling, but like I've said before, corner carving isn't my priority. A nice comfortable flat 6 is.

Jason

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Originally Posted by willtill

Just a remark on front tire pressure; Traxxion Dynamics told me to run 34psi in my front tire; after I had their front suspension package installed.

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I was actually doing that without knowing as I hadn't checked air pressure in a few rides, Willtill. Still didn't do the trick for me, but after I put it back at 41, I definitely noticed it.

Jason