...but, are they? Let's use the number $25,000 in 2019 as the price one pays for a new Wing. Accounting for inflation, that's equivalent to $11,800 in 1988. What did a new Wing cost in 1988?Originally Posted by opas ride
...but, are they? Let's use the number $25,000 in 2019 as the price one pays for a new Wing. Accounting for inflation, that's equivalent to $11,800 in 1988. What did a new Wing cost in 1988?
Last edited by VStarRider; 02-03-2019 at 06:17 PM.
Former Ride:
2013 F6B Standard, black; sold 7/2019
Latest Addition:
2016 Gold Wing Level 3, red; SCT transmission stuck in manual mode
2019 Miles:
7,900 as of 10/6
You're probably right. I read somewhere that if you calculate the price of a new car in hours of labor, using the average wage for a U.S. worker, it takes less work to buy a car than it did a few decades ago. Add to that far better mileage, performance, and reliability, and cars today are a better deal than ever. The same likely applies to motorcycles.
It's the same with fuel prices. In real dollars, gasoline is about as cheap today as it's ever been.
We all sound like a bunch of old farts complaining about millenials. They all seem like great kids to me, with financial burdens we never had when we were young. Between high rents, low pay, paying off student loans, and the added cost of the digital age. Mostly the reason they are all so broke. Seems to me the previous generation is the one with entitlement issues.
Maybe....but....
I've got some "first-hand knowledge" of college students at University of West Florida.
What will and will not do.
What they will and will not eat.
What they will purchase and then say they are broke.
Example: I have a phone plan with TMobil where I have 4 phones, unlimited data & texts, free CONUS calls. $100/month. No, there are no free phone upgrades. You buy a phone and you use it.
Their response: "That's just silly, I NEED the free upgrades."
Example: Seminar lecture. Free Firehouse turkey subs, chips & cookies.
They ate the cookies, brought in $5 coffee from wherever, wouldn't touch the subs because "I don't like Firehouse subs, I only eat Mike's Famous."
And then complain, again, they are broke.
I'm not seeing things from their perspective. At all.
Yes, they are broke, but it's because they have made continuously poor choices.
They do not know how to cook from raw materials - huge $$$$ savings there.
They do not know how to manage and save money.
They do not repair - they discard or get a "free" upgrade.
There's a popular radio commercial that starts out with "If you have credit card debt of more than $10,000, it may not be your fault!" Seriously???? Get real.
You make your bed; you sleep in it.
Freedom of choice comes with consequences.
"Play stupid games; win stupid prizes."
And the games are just getting sillier....
I need more Irish Creme in my coffee apparently.
Well, What are you doing with those college kids? I sent one to college and she came back ruined. The one that stayed home and got a job is doing much better and already owns a home and a good steady job. I mostly caulk it up to immaturity, and all those ideas they are teaching our kids.I just think we should be supportive of the next gen, they have the weight of the world on their shoulders.
Wife is in Grad school - again. She teaches grad school also. She sees all this.Well, What are you doing with those college kids? I sent one to college and she came back ruined. The one that stayed home and got a job is doing much better and already owns a home and a good steady job. I mostly caulk it up to immaturity, and all those ideas they are teaching our kids.
Did you know a Master's program "Full-Load" is only SIX credit hours a semester??? SIX??? This is why these kids are dying. Too much time on their hands and too many semesters ($$$$) to complete their 'education.'
Both my daughters went to good colleges, (Rensselaer Poly and Penn State) both got dual majors and dual minors in a 4 year program, and worked part time. Upon graduation, they were both debt free (scholarships, job, and work-study) and outright owners of their cars (I helped a bit here) and had money in their checking accounts. Both are currently working, doing well, supporting themselves. The elder is in IT and making more money than I ever did. The younger is in education and not making as much but she's happy. Neither have ever asked to move home nor asked for a "grant" - but they know if there's an issue, we'll work something out.
Kids (and people in general) will "push the envelop" and try and do as little as possible. "If the minimum wasn't good enough, it wouldn't be the minimum, right?"
Setting reasonably high expectations and HOLDING THEM ACCOUNTABLE is where parents - in general - are failing miserably these days.
Now granted, someone with an IQ of 70 is not going to do what my kids did, and they are probably never going to have the disposable income to buy a $35,000 motorcycle and we probably wouldn't want them on a motorcycle in the first place.
My younger daughter, after her first few days at PSU, called home and said "Thank you for not raising me like 6 year old." She was amazed and disgusted at the girls who HAD to talk to mommy several times a day for hours at a time. I don't want that dependency on a bike either.
Fourks - they may HAVE the weight of the world on their shoulders, but they are seriously ill equipped to deal with it.
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I will support those who want to make a difference, make good choices, and not play silly games.
I will NOT support what I term "willful ignorance" stemming from emotional trials & tribulations.
Must of hit a few nerves, sorry. We bitch about the generation coming up, meanwhile offer them a Country with more inequality we’ve seen in 150 years. A degraded environment. Unaffordable healthcare. And a unsafe environment for our children to learn in. Just rings untrue to me. We were suppose to leave our children with a better place then we found.
Fourks - no apologies necessary! This forum is about ideas. I love a stimulating discussion first thing in the morning!
It's all good!
sT - Let me get a can of refried beans and I'll sit next to you and be an old fart too....
Things do change - and adapting & overcoming adversity at the individual level has always made Americans great.
Time to change a bit more towards that mentality, IMH(AWI)O.
2WFM - Mike, having met you and broken bread with you, I'd say that any kid you willingly associate with has their act together. My guess is that you mentor those you know and guide them down a great path. Well done by you.
Just like motorcycling all too often contains metaphors for life, are Harley's financial situation and the lack of interest in motorcycling telling us that the Inner Spirit of a majority of Americans is shying away from adventure and exploration?
Is "taking a risk" now synonymous with outlaws?
Another point of view to ponder: from a "motorcycle rider generator" perspective, I'm seeing more and more middle aged (35-55 yo) people in the classroom, wanting to learn to ride.
Usually a new, middle aged rider is going through another mid-life crisis, job change, spouse change, whatever.
The are no longer being 'restricted' by whatever and want to live life a bit louder.
Also, for most people, the motorcycle is a secondary form of transportation - a toy, if you will.
Have Americans stopped acquiring and playing with toys? Because of lack of money? I don't think so. It's an inner change.
Yes, for some riders, it is their only owned source of transportation, but in my experience, new riders are looking at riding as recreational, not as an option to get from A to B.
Of course, with Uber, Lyft, public transport, taxi, etc, that's very understandable - they don't NEED wheels to get around, they are content to 'rent on demand'.
Hmmm. "On demand" services. I don't like the word "demand." How about "Immediately Rentable"? "Conveniently Available"?
The word 'demand' implies so much more is going on. People who demand things are often seen as egotistical rat ba$tards.
Yet we have "on demand" entertainment, "on demand" transportation, "on demand communication" and a slew of other things in the "instant gratification" category.
I think it's the "instant" thing that's effectively driving young people away.
They cannot get a Driver's License instantly - it requires some prep.
They cannot get a Motorcycle endorsement instantly - unless you live in Alabama, but I digress - for most states it requires you actually sit in a class and demonstrate proficiency, mentally and physically.
They cannot use their iPhone to get your bike out of the garage, T-CLOCK itself, warm up, get your proper gear on, and get in the right frame of mind to ride - it requires some prep and time management.
They cannot drive through the local coffee house and get a to-go cup - must make coffee at home - more prep time.
They cannot have a physical conversation, that takes mental prep time and it's just easier to type a text, review it (minimizing initial mental prep time), and then launch it.
A more basic example: too many people do not know how to prepare food from scratch. It requires some learning, a few tools, and prep to go shopping to get the right ingredients. Oh, and take the time to actually cook, although in reality actual cooking time is less than 30 minutes...
The younger generation seems to put more value on saving time by opting to contract-out tasks for which previous generations didn't have the technological opportunity.
And for this, they NEED their iPhones.
I know that in the long term, for me, it's not as cost-effective to contract out most services (especially coffee making).
You can use an "app" to have you ride waiting, your coffee waiting, your haircut waiting, your prepared food waiting, and even your groceries waiting for pickup.
So what is all that telling us as a society?
As "old farts" we know that time is money. And you cannot buy time. We wish we had more time.
Young adults are using technology to save themselves time. Did we inadvertently teach them that?
How can Harley (and other motorcycle manufacturers) appeal to this mindset?
I don't have the answers, but I know what works for me.
Maybe they don't have the answers either, but they know what works for them.
And us old farts enabled their workarounds, actively & passively.
Time to go to my very expensive Jura E-8 coffee machine and get another gourmet cup of coffee - but I will have to empty the grounds all by myself.
Cheers,
Steve
My girls:
Isleen - 2014 F6BD
Saorla - 1995 FLSTN Heritage Special
"Politeness, n: The most acceptable hypocrisy."
Ambrose Bierce
Whoa there! I didn't even have time to duck to miss that one. My head is still spinning from it. Can't decide whether to laugh, or pity someone.
Great kids with no entitlement issues? New and improved financial burdens?
Can't EVEN begin to decide what 'the added cost of the digital age' might be. No, I mean...I really can't! Unless you are suggesting that we now need to molly coddle and pity them because they just HAVE to have a new iPhone every year?
No doubt, along with that new iPhone they'll also need an upgraded iPad and MacBook to go with it. I mean if they actually used pen and theme pads to take class notes, surely they'd get laughed out of class, now wouldn't they? THEN they'd waste an entire afternoon wadded up in a fetal position at the 'Safe Space' across campus! And THAT would mean they'd be late for pulling down all the statues on Front Campus.
But you're right, they do have financial burdens different than what me and mine had to endure. My brother and I both had huge student loans to pay off....he moreso than I. Of course, neither of us spent four years on 'Gender Studies', 'Eighth Century Slovak Literature', or 'Religious Interpretive Dance' degrees. When I finished my second Engineering degree and my brother finished 13 years leading up to a Doctorate from MIT....we were eventually ABLE to find employment. And that DOES make paying off that 'financial burden' much easier than hipsters have it. The Public Dole along with food stamps does indeed make it difficult to pay off those degrees, you're right.
And I agree that they have MUCH higher rents than I had at that age. Mostly because I spent a couple years living on a cot in the back of an aircraft hangar at an airport where I was working in the far north. And that was because I couldn't afford high rents either. Yet....I found a way. And it also ultimately helped in furthering my career field too (must be something to do with all those entitlement issues I had/have.)
Contrary to the stated implication.....these kids have not invented low pay. And they are no more put-upon than any other generation was. Except perhaps for the ones that had to go the pacific rim, western Europe, or Southeast Asia and get shot or dismembered. They might have had it a little rougher.
EVERY kid gets low pay at that age.....its the way the world works (unless, of course, you happen to have been born on a trust fund that Daddy and his lawyer threw together one afternoon between the 7th green and the 8th tee.) I was damned near 30 before my Line 32 broke the 5-digit barrier.
And we did ALL of this without ever once showing up for class with a $6-10 cup of coffee in our hands. We didn't demand a free life or even 'free upgrades' from Comrade Bernie. We didn't turn our noses up at 25-cent boxes of Kraft Mac & Cheese because the pasta wasn't good enough for artisan-only palates.
No...the reason they are so broke is the same reason WE were so broke. Except they mostly still have not grasped that the only way to change their lot is to get a job. And that 'Participation Trophies' ended with public middle schools.
But, hey....I'm just an old fart.
.....sT
Last edited by SimonTemplar; 02-06-2019 at 03:49 AM.
Journeyman ATCS, retired
U.S. DOT - Federal Aviation Administration -- 1982-2012
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