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Thread: Dammit, Honda!

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkKnt View Post
    You can't replace skill and ability with electronics.
    Well, that's debatable. But more importantly, often you can't replace adrenaline with skill and ability.... That instant preceeding a "panic" stop doesn't give enough time for skill and ability to over ride the reflex of grabbing a handful of brake. The bike goes down because the wheel locks instantly, and you haven't even got to the scene of the crash yet! That's when (and only when) you'll "miss" ABS. In controlled settings, you're correct, ABS will not better a skilled rider (racers don't typically use it). An expert rider can apply the brakes in such a way as to first transfer weight, maximize the contact patch, and then squeeze on the exact pressure to just about lock the wheel. But this is when he (or she) has the opportunity to be anticipating the brake marker. Lap after lap. He is completely absorbed in picking that brake point and then maximizing braking performance. On the street however, when a deer runs out, or the mattress flies off the truck, most riders - even experts who are fully engaged in the ride - will often not be able to control that first snatch of the lever.
    Well put.

  2. #12
    Moderator 53driver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkKnt View Post
    You can't replace skill and ability with electronics.
    Well, that's debatable. But more importantly, often you can't replace adrenaline with skill and ability.... That instant preceeding a "panic" stop doesn't give enough time for skill and ability to over ride the reflex of grabbing a handful of brake. The bike goes down because the wheel locks instantly, and you haven't even got to the scene of the crash yet! That's when (and only when) you'll "miss" ABS. In controlled settings, you're correct, ABS will not better a skilled rider (racers don't typically use it). An expert rider can apply the brakes in such a way as to first transfer weight, maximize the contact patch, and then squeeze on the exact pressure to just about lock the wheel. But this is when he (or she) has the opportunity to be anticipating the brake marker. Lap after lap. He is completely absorbed in picking that brake point and then maximizing braking performance. On the street however, when a deer runs out, or the mattress flies off the truck, most riders - even experts who are fully engaged in the ride - will often not be able to control that first snatch of the lever.
    Quote Originally Posted by 2wheelsforme View Post
    Emergency braking is one of the most important skills to practice I think. And yes these bikes have really good brakes, the best I've ever had on a bike. I still bet ABS would be even better for the average Joe!
    I don't think it's as debate-able as alleged, but maybe for the "average Joe"?

    Okay, simple question:
    Why be average?
    (The average guy drives a Ford E______)

    I encourage everyone to be "better than average."
    In the high risk experience that is motorcycling, "average" isn't good enough.
    Strive to be better than others around you in the Quality that is YOUR motorcycle riding.

    How?
    Take a class or two and LEARN techniques for PROPERLY employing your brakes and while you're at it, learn some cornering skills?

    We all know that ABS, when engaged, actually INCREASES your stopping distance.
    Properly applied brakes, whether ABS of not, will give you the MINIMUM stopping distance available for that particular scenario.

    If you KNOW you are not using and practicing threshold braking religiously abilities and have no desire to do so, then yes, ABS is your crutch.
    Please enjoy responsibly.
    Cheers,
    Steve
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  3. #13
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    Great Post Steve. I wonder how many guys and gals actually practice stopping and close quarter turns. I am by far NOT the best rider out there. I do strive to be better by practicing when I can. I have stretches of back roads near my house that I use and vacant parking lots on the weekends. You can improve your skills with a little practice.

  4. #14
    Senior Member VStarRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verismo View Post
    Well put.
    Agreeing with your agreed. ABS is just behind oil and tires as a topic that generates opinions. I donít think oneís ability to maximize braking minus electronic assistance in a panic stop is a physical attribute, itís a mental one.

    We can practice threshold braking every day, but I donít know how to practice for not impulsively grabbing the brake when a vehicle pulls out in front of you suddenly and you have 50 feet and one second to manage that situation. One could make the argument that a series of events led up to a scenario like this, and I would agree...but sometimes itís too late to reverse those factors.

    With my ABS equipped Wing, Iím not riding any further degree of risk than I am when Iím driving my airbagged, stability controlled Subaru compared to my 87 Dodge Shadow, which had none of these features. I do ride with a feeling of confidence that, in the event of a panic stop situation, my decision making reserves can be applied to an escape route, not threshold braking with several possible other factors instantly accounted for by the ABS and not my brain.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by VStarRider View Post
    We can practice threshold braking every day, but I donít know how to practice for not impulsively grabbing the brake when a vehicle pulls out in front of you suddenly and you have 50 feet and one second to manage that situation. One could make the argument that a series of events led up to a scenario like this, and I would agree...but sometimes itís too late to reverse those factors.

    With my ABS equipped Wing, Iím not riding any further degree of risk than I am when Iím driving my airbagged, stability controlled Subaru compared to my 87 Dodge Shadow, which had none of these features. I do ride with a feeling of confidence that, in the event of a panic stop situation, my decision making reserves can be applied to an escape route, not threshold braking with several possible other factors instantly accounted for by the ABS and not my brain.
    Well said. Preparation is one thing and absolutely necessary for safer riding, but the reality of a panic driven handful of front brake is quite another. The tires were chirping and the ABS chattering the other day on my K1600GTL when the teenager driver looked right at me and pulled out anyway.

  6. #16
    Moderator 53driver's Avatar
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    I guess the over-arching thing here, as represented by several posts, is: don't panic.
    Maybe that's easier for me to say than most, being a 20 year military helicopter test pilot with over 170 combat missions.
    Maybe I'm full of sh*t.

    But I firmly believe that anytime you allow your brain to "permit panic", you are inviting unwanted variables.

    Assuming an average IQ & physical fitness....muscle memory, perfect practice, and repetition of proper techniques will save your adrenaline filled, panic stricken brain better than technology.
    Cheers,
    Steve
    Last edited by 53driver; 07-12-2019 at 09:18 AM.

  7. #17
    Senior Member 2wheelsforme's Avatar
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    Some info that you can or not believe: http://www.therideadvice.com/abs-mot...otorcycle-abs/

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2wheelsforme View Post
    Some info that you can or not believe: http://www.therideadvice.com/abs-mot...otorcycle-abs/
    Great article thankyou for posting. I watched a demonstration on ABS by BMW at a Ulysses AGM some years back. That sold me on the concept.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Travelor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 53driver View Post
    I guess the over-arching thing here, as represented by several posts, is: don't panic.
    Maybe that's easier for me to say than most, being a 20 year military helicopter test pilot with over 170 combat missions.
    Maybe I'm full of sh*t.

    But I firmly believe that anytime you allow your brain to "permit panic", you are inviting unwanted variables.

    Assuming an average IQ & physical fitness....muscle memory, perfect practice, and repetition of proper techniques will save your adrenaline filled, panic stricken brain better than technology.
    Cheers,
    Steve
    Steve - while I have met you and respect your experience, knowledge and contributions to this forum, I do have to wonder how many times technology saved your ass on those combat missions? To each his own, but I will opt for ABS anytime I can get it.

  10. #20
    Senior Member VStarRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2wheelsforme View Post
    Some info that you can or not believe: http://www.therideadvice.com/abs-mot...otorcycle-abs/
    Yes, great article, far more scientific than others I have read about ABS. Several studies, outlined in the article, explain how ABS outperforms riders in all practicable situations. Not to mention, ABS bikes are between 10-38% less likely to have a collision claim or fatality, depending upon the study.
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