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Thread: Air cleaner opinion

  1. #11
    Senior Member taxfree4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3wings View Post
    I'm sure that if we came up with the cash, we could have these tests performed on GW air filters. The guys getting these tests done were diesel guys and that may have been a good thing because diesel filters tend to be bigger and heavier which might have made their accuracy a bit easier to achieve. The author was very forward about how the tests were performed and the big variables that temp and humidity could introduce. It would be pretty impossible to do a real world test with any validity so they have to control the variables as much as they could to make their test have value.

    Does anyone have any ideas to make their testing better and more applicable.

    In my opinion, the big cost in air filters for us is the labor to change them. Filters are the cheapest insurance we can get for our toys. This article brings up a great point that if a supplier's filter is really better, why not pay for the independent test and use it in their advertising rather than just saying "mine is better"?
    I have K&N's in three of the seven bikes in my garage. This article is making me re-think that.

    Now we can spend way too much time arguing this along with oil and tires. ������
    Then unless it is in the real world, where we live and ride, I wouldn't give this a thought. Imagine telling a guy with a GM Duramax V8 Diesel that because of a controlled test on a Goldwing he spent too much money for nothing on his filter instead of an OEM. Thalidomide worked great in the lab till kids were being born without arms and legs in the real world.
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  2. #12
    Senior Member DaWadd's Avatar
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    I wouldn't put a K&N in anything. My bike gets OEM only.The OEM filter is a very good product and it fits my bike properly.
    2013 F6B in black of course

  3. #13
    Senior Member F6Dave's Avatar
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    I hesitated to post that test because in the past, we had a member who seemed personally offended by any criticism of K&N. However, I thought that anyone thinking about switching might be interested as it shows why manufacturers don't install 'serviceable' oiled media filters on their vehicles.

    The internet is full of K&N filter complaints. Most focus on two issues: damage to MAF sensors (which our GL1800s don't use) from the filter oil, and visual evidence in the intake tract that excess dirt is passing through. But those are mostly anecdotal stories. If you want precise data you often need to get out of the real world and into a controlled environment. To measure horsepower you connect to a dyno. To determine the condition of your oil you don't look at color of the dipstick, you send a sample to a lab.

    That's what the 'Spicer' test did. Rather than analyze filters pulled from an engine, they ran an ISO 5011 test on 9 competing filters using a machine that flowed test dust (a specific mix of particle sizes) at a constant rate until the filter clogged. Clogging was defined as restriction causing a pressure drop of 10 IN-H2O.

    The results showed a clear pattern. Two oiled filters (K&N and Uni) were compared with 7 traditional paper/syntyetic filters, like Purolator, Wix, and AC/Delco. The best filter ran 60 minutes and let .4 grams of dust through. The worst (K&N) only ran for 24 minutes and let 7 grams through. So the best filter passed .0067 grams of dust per minute, compared to .29 grams for the K&N. That's a ratio of over 43:1!

    It's easy to see why more dirt gets through the K&N. It has only 29 pleats, while the Honda filter has 43, or 48% more. With significantly less surface area the K&N can only flow more air by having larger pores. And larger pores mean larger dust particles.

    The less efficient filtration of oiled media filters is fairly well know. But the big surprise to me was that they clog up faster, which is possibly due to having less surface area. I used K&N and another oiled filter in the past. I didn't like the clean/dry/re-oil routine, but I believed the hype that they lasted longer, and considered one for the F6B since the filter change is such a chore. Now that I know conventional filters last longer (and filter better) there's no way I'll install a brand that needs to be serviced MORE frequently.


  4. #14
    Senior Member taxfree4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F6Dave View Post
    I hesitated to post that test because in the past, we had a member who seemed personally offended by any criticism of K&N. However, I thought that anyone thinking about switching might be interested as it shows why manufacturers don't install 'serviceable' oiled media filters on their vehicles.

    The internet is full of K&N filter complaints. Most focus on two issues: damage to MAF sensors (which our GL1800s don't use) from the filter oil, and visual evidence in the intake tract that excess dirt is passing through. But those are mostly anecdotal stories. If you want precise data you often need to get out of the real world and into a controlled environment. To measure horsepower you connect to a dyno. To determine the condition of your oil you don't look at color of the dipstick, you send a sample to a lab.

    That's what the 'Spicer' test did. Rather than analyze filters pulled from an engine, they ran an ISO 5011 test on 9 competing filters using a machine that flowed test dust (a specific mix of particle sizes) at a constant rate until the filter clogged. Clogging was defined as restriction causing a pressure drop of 10 IN-H2O.

    The results showed a clear pattern. Two oiled filters (K&N and Uni) were compared with 7 traditional paper/syntyetic filters, like Purolator, Wix, and AC/Delco. The best filter ran 60 minutes and let .4 grams of dust through. The worst (K&N) only ran for 24 minutes and let 7 grams through. So the best filter passed .0067 grams of dust per minute, compared to .29 grams for the K&N. That's a ratio of over 43:1!

    It's easy to see why more dirt gets through the K&N. It has only 29 pleats, while the Honda filter has 43, or 48% more. With significantly less surface area the K&N can only flow more air by having larger pores. And larger pores mean larger dust particles.

    The less efficient filtration of oiled media filters is fairly well know. But the big surprise to me was that they clog up faster, which is possibly due to having less surface area. I used K&N and another oiled filter in the past. I didn't like the clean/dry/re-oil routine, but I believed the hype that they lasted longer, and considered one for the F6B since the filter change is such a chore. Now that I know conventional filters last longer (and filter better) there's no way I'll install a brand that needs to be serviced MORE frequently.

    Sounds good on paper, again, when you have a "controlled" environment you can control the outcome, sort of like polls which used to reflect real opinion now they are conducted in specific locations for a specified outcome. Even the previous test mentioned stated, "A small temperature change or a small change in humidity can cause the mass of a paper filter to change by several grams." In essence in the real world, which has a dynamic atmosphere all this is arbitrary. Manufacturers don't put things like filters in because they are the best they can possibly manufacturer they are on there because the accountants agree that it is at the right price. Case in point, my brother worked for the largest Jeep dealership on the East Coast and he said in order to go from the standard dashboard to a leather dashboard on that vehicle it would have cost the manufacturer 50 cents more per vehicle, they didn't do it, it's an option. All the people I rode with used K&N, they still do, these are guys that do their own work on their bikes. All I know is I change them every time, don't reoil, and it costs me a little more money. The bike runs great, she breathes fine, and now with the Torq Loopz even better. A lid for every pot
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  5. #15
    Senior Member F6Dave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taxfree4 View Post
    Sounds good on paper, again, when you have a "controlled" environment you can control the outcome, sort of like polls which used to reflect real opinion now they are conducted in specific locations for a specified outcome. Even the previous test mentioned stated, "A small temperature change or a small change in humidity can cause the mass of a paper filter to change by several grams." In essence in the real world, which has a dynamic atmosphere all this is arbitrary. Manufacturers don't put things like filters in because they are the best they can possibly manufacturer they are on there because the accountants agree that it is at the right price. Case in point, my brother worked for the largest Jeep dealership on the East Coast and he said in order to go from the standard dashboard to a leather dashboard on that vehicle it would have cost the manufacturer 50 cents more per vehicle, they didn't do it, it's an option. All the people I rode with used K&N, they still do, these are guys that do their own work on their bikes. All I know is I change them every time, don't reoil, and it costs me a little more money. The bike runs great, she breathes fine, and now with the Torq Loopz even better. A lid for every pot
    So that's the problem! The indoor temperature and humidity in that lab caused the K&N filter to let 43 TIMES MORE DIRT pass through than a paper filter. I'm sure that out there in the 'real world', a K&N works much better. Just make sure you don't ride indoors!

  6. #16
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    Thats one of the great things about this life. CHOICES!
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  7. #17
    Senior Member taxfree4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F6Dave View Post
    So that's the problem! The indoor temperature and humidity in that lab caused the K&N filter to let 43 TIMES MORE DIRT pass through than a paper filter. I'm sure that out there in the 'real world', a K&N works much better. Just make sure you don't ride indoors!
    I can see why a "controlled" humidity and temperature made the paper filter run at optimal performance, if that what you set it at. Again, as stated ", "A small temperature change or a small change in humidity can cause the mass of a paper filter to change by several grams.." That's the legal disclaimer, the escape hatch. Did they run it through a variety of temps and humidities? I don't see that at all. What they did is get a number they were comfortable with and that was it. These are like epidemiologic studies, manufactured data presented to look like fact but are not gold standard. You would think Honda would publish these "facts" as their filter sales would go through the roof, K&N would have to find another business to go into. Maybe you should contact Honda and send them this breakthrough study, maybe they'll even put you in the commercial. I would say don't wait by the phone.
    Last edited by taxfree4; 04-25-2022 at 09:30 AM.
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  8. #18
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    Okay, I heap some verbiage to it

    They both have a place and function, and both are commercial enterprises.

    Opinions and internet studies and your own designated labs are like armpits, everybody has one and they all stink

    Now you gonna go through the labor to get there, your options are simple, keep it simple, don't fight the bad fit, don't create more labor(washing/oiling)just grab that $40 piece of paper, shove it in there and forget about it for 40K miles or thereabouts.

    You would do the same with the KN, albeit with a bit more labor and probably equal in cost.

    So the winner is?

    Yup, you figured it out, peace.

  9. #19
    Senior Member taxfree4's Avatar
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    There's no fighting but clarity is vital whenever you are putting forward information, presenting it as cold hard scientific fact, until it is pulled apart and evaluated. Read the data presented and see if it is valid or not. This is how we have Dr. Fauci stating masks will protect you from getting Covid and spreading it when no scientific data of the sort exists. Nobody on the forum should present any information as gold standard fact when it isn't. If you want to say "Here's a study done, decide for youself" that's fine. My only point was if this information is so groundbreaking why wouldn't Honda take out full page ads in every mag touting it. Because their well paid lawyers tell them to stay away from this like kryptonite or K&N would drag their asses into court and debunk this "test" in a second and have a multi-million dollar settlement. Anyway, like I said before a lid for every pot
    Equitare solum equitare amplius

  10. #20
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    Yep, anything I or anyone else says is up for scrutiny. I could say the sky is blew and have a have a whole series of tests and have other people saying thats right. Then when you think you've got it all wrapped up, somebody else takes it apart and blows it up.
    There is NEVER a last word. Unless your GOD.
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