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Thread: Basic Rider Course 2 Skills Practice/Experienced Rider Course

  1. #21
    Senior Member VStarRider's Avatar
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    Replies below, once again:

    Quote Originally Posted by stillridin View Post
    V-Star:

    Sounds like you're at a point where there is no "magic" to be had. Confidence doesn't always "just happen", even with the best instruction. But then sometimes something as simple as having the balls of your feet on the pegs rather than under the arches makes a world of difference. But I also know cruiser riders who do just fine with extreme feet-forward pegs and ape-hanger bars.

    I notice you didn't confirm you routinely countersteer. Yes, I do counter steer. As 98Valk says below, I didn't know it wasn't an option. I have gotten better at it by being more conscience of my actions. I know that when my body is stiff, the reaction from counter-steering in muted as my opposite arm/hand is inadvertently resisting the counter steer. If you do, good, but just in case... Countersteering is the best directional control at anything above a walking pace, I find that the cut off is about 20 mph for transitioning from steering to counter steering. so if you want to be able to quickly and accurate put the bike where you want it on the road (not the parking lot), practice countestreering until it is second nature. The idea it is "optional" on any modern (non-extreme cruiser) bike, especially an F6B is bad advice. Not understanding and routinely using countersteering to the point it is an ingrained, automatic neuromuscular response is a sure way to end up on the wrong side of the road when you least want it. I have been trying to be more aware of making use of counter steering specifically as opposed to lazily doing a mix of push, lean, steer inputs. The reaction is immediate and feels right when using counter steering in isolation at speeds of 20 mph+The news stories about the biker, riding around a long open curve on a sunny dry day, suddenly veering into the front of a semi-truck? The trucker says "Ya the rider was going kinda fast and was a bit close to the center line, but then looked at me and suddenly changed direction and drove right in front of me"... That is a rider who didn't understand countersteering or target fixation, and I see at least a couple news stories of fatalities each year here due to it. I have lost track of the number of "close calls" caused by bad drivers where instinctive countersteering to the open space literally saved my life. I've dodged more than a few deer as well.

    My response to friends, neighbours and others who feel the need to ask me "did you hear on the news about the guy/woman rider who crashed/was killed the other day?", inferring I should stop riding because bikes are dangerous, is to ask them if they also saw the deaths/collisions involving cars/trucks on the same news? And are they going to stop driving or tell everyone they know "cars/trucks are dangerous"? For those who try to dismiss me, I add pedestrians and bicyclists, who die in similar numbers/1000 as motorcyclists mostly due to driver error... are they also going to stop walking? I hear ya, and use those arguments, but I still think their comments linger in the back of the "file cabinet" when I out riding.

    Hopefully your doctor was "joking", but remarks like that aren't jokes in my book. He told me he doesn't recommend it, but just because he's a doctor doesn't mean he knows everything. I have thrown it back in his face using the arguments you mention and the risk-mitigating steps I take
    I'd find another doctor, but understand that's not as easy as it used to be. My doctor broke her pelvis off-road bicycling (she's in her late 50's, early 60's), but I didn't harass her about quitting that. Like me and my riding, she knew the risks, she could have been killed or disabled. I'm sure your doctor engages in some risky behaviour too, but would be insulted if you suggested he give it up. Running is healthy, right? Remember Jim Fixx? Ever had shinsplints from running? Or tennis? Yer doc better crawl in bed and pull the covers over his head just to be safe... LOL!

    I still think the best place to practice techniques like street speed braking and countersteering are at the track, but the thorny issue of street-appropriate track coaching and lapping makes that impossible when you don't live close to Tony's Track Days/RITZ events. Otherwise, open view, deserted familiar roads have to suffice as practice space for those who can't afford to rent a road course.

    That's about all I've got... enjoy the ride.
    Former Ride:
    2013 F6B Standard, black; sold 7/2019
    Latest Addition:
    2016 Gold Wing Level 3, red; SCT transmission stuck in manual mode
    2019 Miles:
    7,900 as of 10/6

  2. #22
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    Nope, you are not missing anything but far too many riders are. There were enough riders/experts who disagreed with the concept of countersteering that Code built the "No BS bike". For any readers who aren't familiar with it, Code added a second set of handlebars/throttle attached to the frame, not steering/forks. For a longer exposition, here's David L. Hough's article. (I don't agree with all Hough's ideas, but he's got this one right.)
    http://www.soundrider.com/archive/sa.../nobsbike.aspx

    Hurt's analysis as quoted by Hough of the contact patch stepping out of line due to rake/trail doesn't explain all the forces and effects involved. Two wheeled vehicles "balance" while moving due to the gyroscopic forces generated by the wheels, which is why we must reach a certain speed for a motorcycle to feel stable and react normally to counterstreeting. Countersteering also depends on gyroscopic/precession couple forces generated when a gyroscope axle is twisted 90 degrees to its axis. One end of the front wheel axle is forced down, the other up. The front contact patch stepping out theory can only work when the front wheel is in contact with the ground, which makes GP riders' ability to turn in their bikes while wheelying either magic or another force dynamic. The curved profile of the rear tire and the GP rider weighting/leaning-off the inside of the bike will have an effect, but once you have played with a gyroscope toy and felt the strength of the forces generated by so small a rotating mass it becomes clear precession and countersteering are strongly linked.

    Gyroscopic precession forces and the contact patch stepping out both act to tip the bike opposite to the nominal direction the bars are turned. The faster the bike speed and the more abruptly the bars a turned the more forceful the resultant tipping in. But it can also be so subtle that an unaware rider may never notice these forces acting until the bars are quickly jerked to turn. Practice makes perfect neuromuscular responses. Which is why training wheels on a bicycle are a bad idea, kids quickly figure out by the seat of their pants how to countersteer a two-wheeler.

    Quote Originally Posted by 98valk View Post
    I must be missing something.

    How does a person ride a motorcycle without counter steering? I think everyone is constantly counter steering, whether they are making a minor adjustment, changing lanes or making a turn.

    What other choice do we have?

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