Packing for the Rally.

[Davidk]

I agree that factory loads are more reliable but I do not agree with the premise of a prosecutor swaying a jury with that comment. First a grand jury would have to see merit in a self-defense case needing to come before a jury. Then, a gun is already a deadly weapon and when used as I was taught in the military and taught now in my continued training, when I shoot, I shoot to kill. The best way to stop a threat is to kill it dead, it don't get stopped much better than that. If I decide to not carry a gun for protection but instead a knife which is legal size under state law am I not allowed to sharpen the knife? Could a prosecutor tell a jury that I sharpened the knife to be a more deadly weapon? No, just more effective at the intended purpose.

I completely agree with your reasoning, I didn't say that it was correct, I said that the prosecutor will try to use it against you. You have to remember who is in the jury, it is NOT a jury of our peers as they tell you, it is not a jury of people that carry guns for protection. I grant you that mostly depends on where you live, but even most gun owners are not truly knowledgable. I know lots of gun owners that are against "assault weapons," mostly because they are clueless. The percentage of gun owners that actually do any training is tiny.

Your arguments are correct, but to a non gun person they can make a lot of sense. A prosecutor's job is to make you look like a vicious killer and anything that puts a crack in your defense in the eyes of the jury helps him convict you. The less guilty you are, the more the prosecutor will lie and use dirty tricks. Enough cracks in your defense and you become guilty. Same reason that I won't carry a knife that says "Annihilator" on it. The knife is no more deadly with that name, its how the prosecutor will paint you with it. I know some experts that carry a pink knife because it will look less deadly to ignorant jury members. Remember, AR15s are vilified because of their color. The same rifle in a wood stock looks pretty instead of scary to the ignorant.

It's is not about what is correct or not, its how a prosecutor can vilify you in the eyes of a clueless jury. Here's a good example of a dirty trick: A prosecutor will say something to the jury or ask a leading and illegal question to a witness even though he knows that it will be objected to and stricken from the record. The jury will to be told to disregard it, but its too late, it will never be forgotten.

If we are forced into a situation where lethal force needs to be applied, we should do so in a manner which gives as little “ammunition” as possible to the prosecutor to use against us. Sure, we can bring in experts to counter the lies of the prosecutor, but regardless of the strength our counter arguments, the truth is no guarantee that we will change the minds of the jury. Not a lot of point of winning the gunfight only to be hung by the jury.

Remember the old saying that “a grand jury could indict a ham sandwich?” That’s because a grand jury is a one-way street. The prosecutor presents his lies and there is no defense allowed. Indictments are all but guaranteed.

[F6B1911]

Yes reloads are legal to carry, but not recommended.

1. Reloads are not as reliable as quality, factory ammo. In every training class there is a least one person with bad ammo and its always reloads. Yup, I know, not MY reloads, they always fire—I hear it all the time. I reload myself, quality factory ammo is more reliable.

Hmmm,
I'd have to argue that one with you....
After reloading for almost 20 years, I'll put my reloads up against any factory ammo you want.
I spent the past few weeks at Camp Perry, not sure I saw any factory ammo there, don't think many would shoot over 300 yards that wasn't done by a meticulous hand loader.

[Sorcerer]

I was instructed in my first permit class and in my renewal class that the propper verbage was " I shot to stop the threat". If I wanted to help the DA convict me to say " stop or I'll kill you" or "I'm going to shoot you". Alway say "stop, leave me alone".

[Davidk]

Hmmm,
I'd have to argue that one with you....
After reloading for almost 20 years, I'll put my reloads up against any factory ammo you want.
I spent the past few weeks at Camp Perry, not sure I saw any factory ammo there, don't think many would shoot over 300 yards that wasn't done by a meticulous hand loader.

Every class I have taught or attended where people had ammo problems, they were reloads. People hand loading one at a time tend to make good ammo. My precision reloads are better than factory, no so when I crank out 1000 rounds on a progressive press.

i know many national level trainers and all recommend against reloads for the reasons that i stated

[Davidk]

I was instructed in my first permit class and in my renewal class that the propper verbage was " I shot to stop the threat". If I wanted to help the DA convict me to say " stop or I'll kill you" or "I'm going to shoot you". Alway say "stop, leave me alone".

Absolutely. Keep shooting until the threat stops. Prosecutor: Why did you shoot him eight times? Defensive shooter: Because 7 wasn't enough and 9 was too many.

[Sorcerer]

Hmmm,
I'd have to argue that one with you....
After reloading for almost 20 years, I'll put my reloads up against any factory ammo you want.
I spent the past few weeks at Camp Perry, not sure I saw any factory ammo there, don't think many would shoot over 300 yards that wasn't done by a meticulous hand loader.

I think you may be mixing long range (although 300 yards is not all that long for a long gun)shooting with self defense hand guns.

[stroguy]

Well, I see your reasoning, just don't agree with it. I don't want to live in that realm of paranoia. Wouldn't it just escalate to a point where I should be worried about carrying a 44 when a prosecutor could argue that a 32 would have done the same job and I just wanted to cause undue harm and guaranteed death? When it comes to my families safety and my safety, there is no worry or paranoia on the ammo or caliber I select. I shoot to kill, not to mame or warn........I'll leave that idiocy for Hollywood and the libtards.

[Davidk]

Well, I see your reasoning, just don't agree with it. I don't want to live in that realm of paranoia. Wouldn't it just escalate to a point where I should be worried about carrying a 44 when a prosecutor could argue that a 32 would have done the same job and I just wanted to cause undue harm and guaranteed death? When it comes to my families safety and my safety, there is no worry or paranoia on the ammo or caliber I select. I shoot to kill, not to mame or warn........I'll leave that idiocy for Hollywood and the libtards.

Firearms training, including the use of force is my profession. Most of my training in this legal area comes from the top expert in the country on the legality of the use of force, Massad Ayoob. You should consider taking some classes from him.

[stroguy]

Seen plenty of Massad, good man, good information. I use his revolver reload religiously. I also train with an instructor with years of law enforcement and military and Blackwater training. I train with other educated professionals as well and the idea that any one of us would worry about a hot reload being used against us in a court of law never crosses our mind. Tomorrow is our regular Thursday class night and at Mexican dinner afterwards I will formally throw this on the table in between our hatred of hillary discussion and reloading for the next long range tournament.

[Davidk]

Seen plenty of Massad, good man, good information. I use his revolver reload religiously. I also train with an instructor with years of law enforcement and military and Blackwater training. I train with other educated professionals as well and the idea that any one of us would worry about a hot reload being used against us in a court of law never crosses our mind. Tomorrow is our regular Thursday class night and at Mexican dinner afterwards I will formally throw this on the table in between our hatred of hillary discussion and reloading for the next long range tournament.

I know Ayoob and his training well. He wrote the forword for my book. My proudest accomplishment in the field of training was Ayoob quoting me in a few of his articles

That's great that you are doing that training, but the issues that I brought up are unkown to most LE and Mil as they are not usually effected by them. Ayoob specializes in training and defending private citizens and the issues they face. Le and Mil dont face the same issues

Ayoob has mor knowledge and experience than anyone else in the county. He was the pioneer of firearms training for private citizens decades ago. When I started training there were not more than a handful of trainers in the country. Nothing like today