Working without a Soc Sec #

[adventurous1]

Yep, what I gleaned from the judgements is that they were more on procedural issues (he didn't play by their deposition rules) versus specific tax law infractions. The result was an intimidation response versus identifying specific law infractions. His requests for specifics were all denied.

I was not able to find any following docs pertaining to the punitive requests to the court using the case number. The audit trail appears to have gone cold there. I did find other defendant's documents that included his case number.

They were probably avoiding adding his data into record for fear it would be used by others as an establish a president.

He has posted the audio recordings of some of his telephone meetings. I listened to some briefly and he seemed to be quite detailed and cautious about the negotiation of the discovery phase. The Feds took some liberties that he was seeking redactions before signing. In short, the Fed docs were putting words in his mouth that were not his, nor his opinions or beliefs.

Yeah, I saw the deposition was a big part of the Fed's argument. Just didn't put it together the didn't play by their rules. Thank you, solid logic. You're probably dead on the Fed's wouldn't want it into the record. Hansen seems waaaaay on top of his game and thoroughly researched his logic for doing what he's doing. Fantastic lesson to be reaffirmed about 'reading before signing' any Fed Docs. Btw, when I need to provide a W-9, I always provide a 'substitute W-9 w/ my social security letter. Along w/ a P-1 form.

[adventurous1]

Yep, what I gleaned from the judgements is that they were more on procedural issues (he didn't play by their deposition rules) versus specific tax law infractions. The result was an intimidation response versus identifying specific law infractions. His requests for specifics were all denied.

I was not able to find any following docs pertaining to the punitive requests to the court using the case number. The audit trail appears to have gone cold there. I did find other defendant's documents that included his case number.

They were probably avoiding adding his data into record for fear it would be used by others as an establish a president.

He has posted the audio recordings of some of his telephone meetings. I listened to some briefly and he seemed to be quite detailed and cautious about the negotiation of the discovery phase. The Feds took some liberties that he was seeking redactions before signing. In short, the Fed docs were putting words in his mouth that were not his, nor his opinions or beliefs.

Whoa, I just took a look at the first 10 or so pages of Hansen's IRS DUE PROCESS MEETING HAND BOOK - no wonder the Fed's didn't want that into the record. It's massive. It's also seems very succinct and thoroughly researched. He presents the codes the IRS agent MUST adhere to, and also having the sign of penalty of perjury of their true legal name. And, the Feds would have to rebut / refute ALL of the case law he's sighted. Most importantly, and I'm definitely not an attorney, but hasn't some statute of limitations run it's course on this issue? It's been 9 yrs, yes?

[taxfree4]

Yes and no. Generally (not to be confused with a 'general appearance') the words 'special appearance' is written on the top page of the answer and/or any motion by the defendant. And, if the man /woman is present in Court in front of the judge, the man /woman's first words would be ".......by Special Appearance".

That is why I look at the paperwork FROM the court not to the court as you can say/write, pretty much anything but the court decides if you've appeared or not, this is Public Policy, there aint no rules on their side. If his name appears in ALL CAPS in the body of the docs from the court, he's appeared. When I used to do "court watching" I've seen judges rule two different ways on what was virtually the same case, under Public Policy. No one on planet Earth knows more about court procedure, court paperwork or the UCC process than Sam Davis. Sam Davis will be let out of prison in 2017, it's their game and we may know the rules but they're the referee, they've got the guns. Sometimes they wait, and don't act so they can gather more defendants.

[adventurous1]

When I used to do "court watching" I've seen judges rule two different ways on what was virtually the same case, under Public Policy.

Yup, that's why I do my best to stay under the radar. Just live and enjoy my life --- and work w/o an SSN using the Fed's own document. NO SSN on my utility bills, NO SSN on my cell phone, NO SSN on my apartment lease. NO SSN on my bank accounts. NO SSN on Credit Cards only debit cards with NO SSN. NO SSN on my health insurance. All vehicles paid in cash, including an amazing used F6B w/ 4 K miles.

[taxfree4]

Yup, that's why I do my best to stay under the radar. Just live and enjoy my life --- and work w/o an SSN using the Fed's own document. NO SSN on my utility bills, NO SSN on my cell phone, NO SSN on my apartment lease. NO SSN on my bank accounts. NO SSN on Credit Cards only debit cards with NO SSN. NO SSN on my health insurance. All vehicles paid in cash, including an amazing used F6B w/ 4 K miles.

And I believe that is the key, stay low. Irwin Schiff's problem is he had it dead right, all of it, the law, procedure but he decided to advertise it. I had a long talk with him on a ride down to Manhattan to see his son, after a speech he gave (in I'll say Albany- long time ago). I said why don't you just keep it to yourself or just a few friends, he said he couldn't he felt it was his duty to alert the American people, he was on a crusade. Poor old man died in jail. If you do the right paperwork, and it sounds like you do, and keep it between you and the government, they'll honor it ... sometimes.

[ths61]

And I believe that is the key, stay low. Irwin Schiff's problem is he had it dead right, all of it, the law, procedure but he decided to advertise it. I had a long talk with him on a ride down to Manhattan to see his son, after a speech he gave (in I'll say Albany- long time ago). I said why don't you just keep it to yourself or just a few friends, he said he couldn't he felt it was his duty to alert the American people, he was on a crusade. Poor old man died in jail. If you do the right paperwork, and it sounds like you do, and keep it between you and the government, they'll honor it ... sometimes.

I looked up some of his books (The Federal Mafia) on Amazon and read some of the reviews. Apparently "The Federal Mafia" book was banned at some time (so much for the 1st Amendment). His website no longer sells it but allows you to download the PDF in its entirety for free along with some of his other stuff.

http://www.paynoincometax.com/great_giveaway.htm

[adventurous1]

And I believe that is the key, stay low. Irwin Schiff's problem is he had it dead right, all of it, the law, procedure but he decided to advertise it. I had a long talk with him on a ride down to Manhattan to see his son, after a speech he gave (in I'll say Albany- long time ago). I said why don't you just keep it to yourself or just a few friends, he said he couldn't he felt it was his duty to alert the American people, he was on a crusade. Poor old man died in jail. If you do the right paperwork, and it sounds like you do, and keep it between you and the government, they'll honor it ... sometimes.

From the little I've read about Irwin Schiff, I believe he was correct on many things but what I thought he was dead wrong was placing zero on a tax return (at least I think it was him) when the Courts repeatedly said "...that's frivolous", yet he kept doing it. People like Schiff seem to write these monstrous and voluminous books with soooooo much info, it's difficult to grasp it all (though I believe the essence is completely accurate). And the basic premise Schiff kept telling people they don't have to file; however if those same people used a TAX ID # then they are a TAXPAYER, and thus liable for TAXES. Saying anything contrary to this simple fact - will have a disastrous legal impact. As Schiff discovered a few times - and believe he was finally sentenced for 'contempt of court' not any other crime - but I may be mistaken.

Also, it seems that Hansen guy learned from his dealing with the Courts, he then tweaked some of his paperwork and approach to deal with some things that may be problematic. Read a book by a guy named Otto Skin or Skinner years ago. (I remember the name Otto because him and Otto Preminger are 2 guys with that name that I've ever heard ). Anyway, Otto's book was very basic, simple to read, and waaaay ez to comprehend.

What I do not understand with many of these 'tax patriot' people is that they never tell Citizens to simply stop using a TAX ID number to work (maybe they do, I don't know). But, it seems extremely simple. Now, I say that because I've been doing it for 14 yrs - without a problem. However, I do understand, if a citizen has worked at a company for 10 or 20 yrs, or in some union trade or whatever, where they've give a prior # to a payor, then the worker is screwed.

btw, the legal department at ADP told me years ago, that the 'default #' for people who do not provide a number is '555-55-5555'. Apparently, some or all payroll / accounting/ bookkeeping software programs needs "a number" for the software system to go to the next page in that operating system. Payors and colleges / universities seem to use the "555-55-5555".

[adventurous1]

I looked up some of his books (The Federal Mafia) on Amazon and read some of the reviews. Apparently "The Federal Mafia" book was banned at some time (so much for the 1st Amendment). His website no longer sells it but allows you to download the PDF in its entirety for free along with some of his other stuff.

http://www.paynoincometax.com/great_giveaway.htm

Thx for this info. Some of the vids seem to have been taken down. I'll look over some of the other material, though his material seems monstrous. Believe the attorney named Cryer in Louisiana (?) who proved to the jury he wasn't required to file a tax return, kept his points extremely simple and always on point. Though I've never read that court's transcripts.

[taxfree4]

From the little I've read about Irwin Schiff, I believe he was correct on many things but what I thought he was dead wrong was placing zero on a tax return (at least I think it was him) when the Courts repeatedly said "...that's frivolous", yet he kept doing it. People like Schiff seem to write these monstrous and voluminous books with soooooo much info, it's difficult to grasp it all (though I believe the essence is completely accurate). And the basic premise Schiff kept telling people they don't have to file; however if those same people used a TAX ID # then they are a TAXPAYER, and thus liable for TAXES. Saying anything contrary to this simple fact - will have a disastrous legal impact. As Schiff discovered a few times - and believe he was finally sentenced for 'contempt of court' not any other crime - but I may be mistaken.

Also, it seems that Hansen guy learned from his dealing with the Courts, he then tweaked some of his paperwork and approach to deal with some things that may be problematic. Read a book by a guy named Otto Skin or Skinner years ago. (I remember the name Otto because him and Otto Preminger are 2 guys with that name that I've ever heard ). Anyway, Otto's book was very basic, simple to read, and waaaay ez to comprehend.

What I do not understand with many of these 'tax patriot' people is that they never tell Citizens to simply stop using a TAX ID number to work (maybe they do, I don't know). But, it seems extremely simple. Now, I say that because I've been doing it for 14 yrs - without a problem. However, I do understand, if a citizen has worked at a company for 10 or 20 yrs, or in some union trade or whatever, where they've give a prior # to a payor, then the worker is screwed.

btw, the legal department at ADP told me years ago, that the 'default #' for people who do not provide a number is '555-55-5555'. Apparently, some or all payroll / accounting/ bookkeeping software programs needs "a number" for the software system to go to the next page in that operating system. Payors and colleges / universities seem to use the "555-55-5555".

Just the opposite, Schiff didn't say not to file he said to file, just file zero returns. The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that zeros on a return constituted a valid return. As far as liability, nowhere in the IR Code does it make you liable for an income tax. They will point to Section 61 ,however, that section mentions gross income but never defines what income is because the Supreme Court defined it already which is the result of the combination of labor and capital = corporate profit, thats why all corporations zero out at the end of the fiscal year, no profit - no tax. The IR Code never makes a distinction between a corporation or a person because they are the same - legal entities.

The 1040 makes you list wages, salaries. tips etc. except the way it should be read is if you notice the word in big, bold letters to the left of that "INCOME". You have no wages, salaries, tips etc. FROM income so zero is the only valid answer. Wages, salaries and tips are sources of income not income themselves. Thats why Schiff would tell you to go to your due process hearing and bring the IR code with you and have the agent point to where it makes you liable for the tax, never one instance of any agent ever being able to do it. His work was voluminous because he prepared you for court. In essence all his work was summed up in compliance "I want to pay, however, before I do verify the debt for me and show me the bill." and they couldn't, conditional acceptance and they couldn't meet the conditions, very powerful stuff if you do it right.

[taxfree4]

I looked up some of his books (The Federal Mafia) on Amazon and read some of the reviews. Apparently "The Federal Mafia" book was banned at some time (so much for the 1st Amendment). His website no longer sells it but allows you to download the PDF in its entirety for free along with some of his other stuff.

http://www.paynoincometax.com/great_giveaway.htm

Yep, he was a headstrong guy, his son is the well known financial guy Peter Schiff. Irwin was brilliant when it came to procedure its just sad he died in jail. Nice, quiet tax paying lives is the way to go.