Harley in big financial trouble

[Fourks]

Sounds like you raised some great kids! I agree with HOLDING THEM ACCOUNTABLE and that is lacking in our society and our parenting. My Daughter calls me the Tiger Dad so at least she's feeling the pressure. I do worry that they are seriously ill equipped if I was being totally honest. Suggesting that you need an above average IQ to ride a F6B sounds a bit elitist to me. I have an average IQ and turn wrenches for a living, and I do just fine on a bike. I have owned my own business most of my life, and make good money.

[53driver]

Sounds like you raised some great kids! I agree with HOLDING THEM ACCOUNTABLE and that is lacking in our society and our parenting. My Daughter calls me the Tiger Dad so at least she's feeling the pressure. I do worry that they are seriously ill equipped if I was being totally honest. Suggesting that you need an above average IQ to ride a F6B sounds a bit elitist to me. I have an average IQ and turn wrenches for a living, and I do just fine on a bike. I have owned my own business most of my life, and make good money.

No sir, not at all. Please no offense!

And I don't think I wrote that one needed an "above average IQ to ride a F6B"
I wrote:
"Now granted, someone with an IQ of 70 is not going to do what my kids did, and they are probably never going to have the disposable income to buy a $35,000 motorcycle and we probably wouldn't want them on a motorcycle in the first place."

Quick explanation:
Average is 100. If you are running your own business and have managed to keep the IRS out of your life, I would say you are WELL above average!
A 70 IQ is two standard deviations below "average" indicating a mind that cannot perceive and react - quickly or at all - to situations. The Cognitive Classification is "Very Dull" - the lowest one.

Again, I am not suggesting it takes above average intelligence to operate a motorcycle. Let's keep things in context here.
Cheers,
Steve

[F6Dave]

Don't forget about the college debt they come out with. Takes decades to pay it off.

That must be why they vote for candidates promising free college, since Uncle Sam would probably write off all student loans if such legislation passed. This could be what they had in mind when they passed Obamacare. Buried in that legislation was a provision for the government to take over all student loans.

[SimonTemplar]

We all sound like a bunch of old farts complaining about millenials. They all seem like great kids to me, with financial burdens we never had when we were young. Between high rents, low pay, paying off student loans, and the added cost of the digital age. Mostly the reason they are all so broke. Seems to me the previous generation is the one with entitlement issues.

Whoa there! I didn't even have time to duck to miss that one. My head is still spinning from it. Can't decide whether to laugh, or pity someone.

Great kids with no entitlement issues? New and improved financial burdens?

Can't EVEN begin to decide what 'the added cost of the digital age' might be. No, I mean...I really can't! Unless you are suggesting that we now need to molly coddle and pity them because they just HAVE to have a new iPhone every year?

No doubt, along with that new iPhone they'll also need an upgraded iPad and MacBook to go with it. I mean if they actually used pen and theme pads to take class notes, surely they'd get laughed out of class, now wouldn't they? THEN they'd waste an entire afternoon wadded up in a fetal position at the 'Safe Space' across campus! And THAT would mean they'd be late for pulling down all the statues on Front Campus.

But you're right, they do have financial burdens different than what me and mine had to endure. My brother and I both had huge student loans to pay off....he moreso than I. Of course, neither of us spent four years on 'Gender Studies', 'Eighth Century Slovak Literature', or 'Religious Interpretive Dance' degrees. When I finished my second Engineering degree and my brother finished 13 years leading up to a Doctorate from MIT....we were eventually ABLE to find employment. And that DOES make paying off that 'financial burden' much easier than hipsters have it. The Public Dole along with food stamps does indeed make it difficult to pay off those degrees, you're right.

And I agree that they have MUCH higher rents than I had at that age. Mostly because I spent a couple years living on a cot in the back of an aircraft hangar at an airport where I was working in the far north. And that was because I couldn't afford high rents either. Yet....I found a way. And it also ultimately helped in furthering my career field too (must be something to do with all those entitlement issues I had/have.)

Contrary to the stated implication.....these kids have not invented low pay. And they are no more put-upon than any other generation was. Except perhaps for the ones that had to go the pacific rim, western Europe, or Southeast Asia and get shot or dismembered. They might have had it a little rougher.

EVERY kid gets low pay at that age.....its the way the world works (unless, of course, you happen to have been born on a trust fund that Daddy and his lawyer threw together one afternoon between the 7th green and the 8th tee.) I was damned near 30 before my Line 32 broke the 5-digit barrier.

And we did ALL of this without ever once showing up for class with a $6-10 cup of coffee in our hands. We didn't demand a free life or even 'free upgrades' from Comrade Bernie. We didn't turn our noses up at 25-cent boxes of Kraft Mac & Cheese because the pasta wasn't good enough for artisan-only palates.

No...the reason they are so broke is the same reason WE were so broke. Except they mostly still have not grasped that the only way to change their lot is to get a job. And that 'Participation Trophies' ended with public middle schools.


But, hey....I'm just an old fart.




.....sT

[tenxxx]

Make your bed and sleep in it.
Were all to blame, if you want to blame someone.
Things change.

[2wheelsforme]

The kids I know and have known are doing a great job at being good citizens.

[jmdaniel]

Whoa there! I didn't even have time to duck to miss that one. My head is still spinning from it. Can't decide whether to laugh, or pity someone.

Great kids with no entitlement issues? New and improved financial burdens?

Can't EVEN begin to decide what 'the added cost of the digital age' might be. No, I mean...I really can't! Unless you are suggesting that we now need to molly coddle and pity them because they just HAVE to have a new iPhone every year?

No doubt, along with that new iPhone they'll also need an upgraded iPad and MacBook to go with it. I mean if they actually used pen and theme pads to take class notes, surely they'd get laughed out of class, now wouldn't they? THEN they'd waste an entire afternoon wadded up in a fetal position at the 'Safe Space' across campus! And THAT would mean they'd be late for pulling down all the statues on Front Campus.

But you're right, they do have financial burdens different than what me and mine had to endure. My brother and I both had huge student loans to pay off....he moreso than I. Of course, neither of us spent four years on 'Gender Studies', 'Eighth Century Slovak Literature', or 'Religious Interpretive Dance' degrees. When I finished my second Engineering degree and my brother finished 13 years leading up to a Doctorate from MIT....we were eventually ABLE to find employment. And that DOES make paying off that 'financial burden' much easier than hipsters have it. The Public Dole along with food stamps does indeed make it difficult to pay off those degrees, you're right.

And I agree that they have MUCH higher rents than I had at that age. Mostly because I spent a couple years living on a cot in the back of an aircraft hangar at an airport where I was working in the far north. And that was because I couldn't afford high rents either. Yet....I found a way. And it also ultimately helped in furthering my career field too (must be something to do with all those entitlement issues I had/have.)

Contrary to the stated implication.....these kids have not invented low pay. And they are no more put-upon than any other generation was. Except perhaps for the ones that had to go the pacific rim, western Europe, or Southeast Asia and get shot or dismembered. They might have had it a little rougher.

EVERY kid gets low pay at that age.....its the way the world works (unless, of course, you happen to have been born on a trust fund that Daddy and his lawyer threw together one afternoon between the 7th green and the 8th tee.) I was damned near 30 before my Line 32 broke the 5-digit barrier.

And we did ALL of this without ever once showing up for class with a $6-10 cup of coffee in our hands. We didn't demand a free life or even 'free upgrades' from Comrade Bernie. We didn't turn our noses up at 25-cent boxes of Kraft Mac & Cheese because the pasta wasn't good enough for artisan-only palates.

No...the reason they are so broke is the same reason WE were so broke. Except they mostly still have not grasped that the only way to change their lot is to get a job. And that 'Participation Trophies' ended with public middle schools.


But, hey....I'm just an old fart.




.....sT

Pretty much the same here, except the Kraft Mac and Cheese was 3/$1, so the price must have gone up. My story:

- Kicked out of the house 3 days after high school graduation, by my (single) mom, and I deserved every bit of it. Been paying for the roof over my head for almost 40 years now.
- After working at a tool company, framing houses, and installing cable TV, (the I want my MTV era), decided I should get a college degree. The brains were always there, the maturity took awhile to catch up.
- Obviously with no parental support, I needed to find a way to pay for college, so I reached out to an uncle; Sam was his name, and he offered a financial hand, as long as I toted an M16 first. Best decision I have ever made, and #2 isn't even close...
- Obtained 4 year degree in 4 years, (shocker!), supplementing Army educational benefits with part time work, full time in the summers. Kinda funny how paying 100% of the education costs and living expenses will make every class count. Graduated as one of the Top 25 Academics in the university that year; I was the only student who didn't have a parent attend the honorary dinner. I invited a friend, and thanked him afterwards for attending. His response? "I didn't come to support you, it's free prime rib!"...
- Started the corporate grind, and saving for retirement. Funny, how what gets preached about compound interest and paying yourself first, by setting aside for later, really works!
- After being told, "you're just an engineer" far too many times, decided to get an MBA. I knew of the concept of opportunity cost before it was covered in school, so knew that taking 2 years off work to get my degree would have an extremely long ROI. Fortunately, there was a program at my school that allowed me to take the same classes, stretched out over 3 years instead of 2, while I continued to work full time. All classes were graded on a curve, and I remember telling full time students that they should hang their heads in shame if I did better than them, after spotting them 40 hours a week. And that did happen. Toughest three years of my life.
- I did take out student loans while in grad school. After all, if I could borrow money at 0% and invest it, why not? Put the money in the market, paid it back in full when my first payment was due.
- Didn't get married until I was 45, after seeing a lot of my friends crash and burn in divorce court. There was a prenup before I got hitched, and the day I signed it is the last time I looked at it. Knock on wood that continues.

I've read this thread with a bit of amusement, as it has evolved into a bash the kids discussion. Times have definitely changed, but they always do. I personally think that kids are a lot softer these days, but I have a lot of friends that never left my hometown or made much of themselves, so generalizing kinda sucks. Harleys aren't selling, but neither are brand new, 3 year old F6Bs, at 50% off MSRP, as can be seen on CycleTrader. And none of that affects any of us, in our enjoyment of motorcycles.

[Fourks]

Must of hit a few nerves, sorry. We bitch about the generation coming up, meanwhile offer them a Country with more inequality we’ve seen in 150 years. A degraded environment. Unaffordable healthcare. And a unsafe environment for our children to learn in. Just rings untrue to me. We were suppose to leave our children with a better place then we found.

[53driver]

...
But, hey....I'm just an old fart.
.....sT

sT - Let me get a can of refried beans and I'll sit next to you and be an old fart too....

Make your bed and sleep in it.
We're all to blame, if you want to blame someone.
Things change.

Things do change - and adapting & overcoming adversity at the individual level has always made Americans great.
Time to change a bit more towards that mentality, IMH(AWI)O.

The kids I know and have known are doing a great job at being good citizens.

2WFM - Mike, having met you and broken bread with you, I'd say that any kid you willingly associate with has their act together. My guess is that you mentor those you know and guide them down a great path. Well done by you.

Just like motorcycling all too often contains metaphors for life, are Harley's financial situation and the lack of interest in motorcycling telling us that the Inner Spirit of a majority of Americans is shying away from adventure and exploration?
Is "taking a risk" now synonymous with outlaws?

Another point of view to ponder: from a "motorcycle rider generator" perspective, I'm seeing more and more middle aged (35-55 yo) people in the classroom, wanting to learn to ride.
Usually a new, middle aged rider is going through another mid-life crisis, job change, spouse change, whatever.
The are no longer being 'restricted' by whatever and want to live life a bit louder.

Also, for most people, the motorcycle is a secondary form of transportation - a toy, if you will.
Have Americans stopped acquiring and playing with toys? Because of lack of money? I don't think so. It's an inner change.

Yes, for some riders, it is their only owned source of transportation, but in my experience, new riders are looking at riding as recreational, not as an option to get from A to B.
Of course, with Uber, Lyft, public transport, taxi, etc, that's very understandable - they don't NEED wheels to get around, they are content to 'rent on demand'.
Hmmm. "On demand" services. I don't like the word "demand." How about "Immediately Rentable"? "Conveniently Available"?
The word 'demand' implies so much more is going on. People who demand things are often seen as egotistical rat ba$tards.
Yet we have "on demand" entertainment, "on demand" transportation, "on demand communication" and a slew of other things in the "instant gratification" category.
I think it's the "instant" thing that's effectively driving young people away.
They cannot get a Driver's License instantly - it requires some prep.
They cannot get a Motorcycle endorsement instantly - unless you live in Alabama, but I digress - for most states it requires you actually sit in a class and demonstrate proficiency, mentally and physically.
They cannot use their iPhone to get your bike out of the garage, T-CLOCK itself, warm up, get your proper gear on, and get in the right frame of mind to ride - it requires some prep and time management.
They cannot drive through the local coffee house and get a to-go cup - must make coffee at home - more prep time.
They cannot have a physical conversation, that takes mental prep time and it's just easier to type a text, review it (minimizing initial mental prep time), and then launch it.
A more basic example: too many people do not know how to prepare food from scratch. It requires some learning, a few tools, and prep to go shopping to get the right ingredients. Oh, and take the time to actually cook, although in reality actual cooking time is less than 30 minutes...

The younger generation seems to put more value on saving time by opting to contract-out tasks for which previous generations didn't have the technological opportunity.
And for this, they NEED their iPhones.
I know that in the long term, for me, it's not as cost-effective to contract out most services (especially coffee making).
You can use an "app" to have you ride waiting, your coffee waiting, your haircut waiting, your prepared food waiting, and even your groceries waiting for pickup.

So what is all that telling us as a society?
As "old farts" we know that time is money. And you cannot buy time. We wish we had more time.
Young adults are using technology to save themselves time. Did we inadvertently teach them that?
How can Harley (and other motorcycle manufacturers) appeal to this mindset?
I don't have the answers, but I know what works for me.
Maybe they don't have the answers either, but they know what works for them.
And us old farts enabled their workarounds, actively & passively.

Time to go to my very expensive Jura E-8 coffee machine and get another gourmet cup of coffee - but I will have to empty the grounds all by myself.
Cheers,
Steve

[53driver]

Must of hit a few nerves, sorry. We bitch about the generation coming up, meanwhile offer them a Country with more inequality we’ve seen in 150 years. A degraded environment. Unaffordable healthcare. And a unsafe environment for our children to learn in. Just rings untrue to me. We were suppose to leave our children with a better place then we found.

Fourks - no apologies necessary! This forum is about ideas. I love a stimulating discussion first thing in the morning!
It's all good!